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Racing Rules: "Barging" #275401
09/16/14 09:17 AM
09/16/14 09:17 AM
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Isotope235 Offline OP
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The term "barging" isn't in the racing rules at all. Nevertheless, the hail "you're barging" is often heard at the starting line, and commonly used in later discussions.

So, what exactly is "barging"? A boat "barges" when she tries to claim room to which she is not entitled at a starting mark. The origin of the term refers to a boat trying to stick her nose in at the "signal barge".

The rules surrounding barging may seem complicated at first, but they're really quite simple. This is one of the instances where RRS 18 "Mark-Room" does not apply. Take a look at the preamble to Part 2, Section C "At marks and obstructions". It says "Section C rules do not apply at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or at its anchor line from the time boats are approaching them to start until they have passed them". Provided that
  1. the mark is surrounded by navigable water (which is almost always the case), and
  2. boats are approaching the line to start, then
rule 18 (and 19 and 20) does not apply.

Therefore, an outside boat is not obligated to give an inside boat mark-room at the start. When boats overlapped on the same tack approach a signal boat to start, they are governed by RRS 11 "On the same tack, overlapped", not rule 18. As long as she complies with rules 14, 15, 16, and 17, a leeward boat can pinch a windward boat off at the mark, forcing the other boat to drop behind or peel away.

There are a couple of caveats. First, the leeward boat (L) has to "close the door" on the windward boat (W) in time. If L changes course to shut W out, then (in accordance with RRS 16.1) she must give W room to keep clear. L cannot force W into the mark. L must head up early enough that W can turn away and avoid the mark in a seamanlike way. If L waits until W's bow is under the mark (or so close that she can't tack), then L may not luff up.

Secondly, if L has closed the door in time and W "barges in" anyway, L must attempt to avoid contact per RRS 14. L must bear away and let W in. Her only recourse is to protest.

I'll try to put together some illustrative diagrams and post them when I have time.

I hope that helps,
Eric Rasmussen
US Sailing Certified Judge
Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: Isotope235] #275405
09/16/14 10:49 AM
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" A good crew on L will not let W in there, but the only legal way to keep W out is to luff with enough time such that W can't get overlapped with the stern of the signal boat. If that happens, L has allowed W space to which W was not entitled, but at that point has no recourse (especially not luffing W into the signal boat)."

From Mike's post... I was unaware that overlap to the Signal Boat. I thought it was overlap on the clear ahead boat..

So if the signal boat is longer than the boats sailing, an overlap could be established by W if they cross the stern of the signal boat, even before they reach the stern of L?


Jay

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: waterbug_wpb] #275410
09/16/14 11:38 AM
09/16/14 11:38 AM
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Isotope235 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
So if the signal boat is longer than the boats sailing, an overlap could be established by W if they cross the stern of the signal boat, even before they reach the stern of L?

Don't think of it in terms of "overlapped with" the signal boat. Instead, concentrate on "room to keep clear" of the signal boat. When L changes course to shut W out, she needs to give W enough space that W can avoid the mark (and meet her other obligations) by maneuvering promptly in a seamanlike way. Certainly, if W already has her bow under the stern of the signal boat, L has waited too long. It may, however, also be too late even before W reaches the signal boat. There's no set distance or time; L simply must give W enough space to peel away in the existing conditions.

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: Isotope235] #275411
09/16/14 11:40 AM
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man, all that thinking makes my head hurt. But very good information to consider.


Jay

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: waterbug_wpb] #275412
09/16/14 11:46 AM
09/16/14 11:46 AM
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Different application of the word overlap.
Stealing images from the web.
Here Leeward is warning windward off in time and by sailing close-hauled is demonstrating the intent to not allow windward in.


[Linked Image]

Here RED allowed Green to get to position 2. Not necessarily overlapped with R/C in our defined sense of overlap but Green doesn't have a legal out.
[Linked Image]

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: bobcat] #275413
09/16/14 12:49 PM
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so if Green at position 2 has no way to keep clear without hitting the starting boat, Red position 2 has to give way, correct?

If Red at position 1 had luffed harder (pointing right at starboard corner of starting boat) she could have possibly peeled Green off of the starting area? wait... it says Green had the overlap on Red at position 1

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 09/16/14 12:51 PM.

Jay

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: Isotope235] #275414
09/16/14 01:00 PM
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Everything Eric is saying lines up with my view on this as well. I used "overlap" as a loose term as mentioned. "Barging" is also not a real term for this issue, but most racers will know what this means.

What I find interesting is that many top rules experts have published articles on this subject. While most talk in terms that we are here, there is at least one that says if L let's W in, L can protest even if there's no contact. I believe there was a case or appeal about that, ruling as Eric and I state here (L will lose the protest), but I can't find it at the moment.

BTW, thanks for posting those diagrams.

Mike

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: Isotope235] #275418
09/16/14 02:08 PM
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What if W ignores all indicators there will be no room for her and decides to take her chances because L is obligated to let her in to avoid contact. Based on what I'm reading here W's chances are pretty good they would be exonerated in a protest. All W has to do is sell that they where pinned by the RC and had an overlap on L. Clearly barging isn't an automatic loser.


David Ingram
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Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: David Ingram] #275419
09/16/14 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
What if W ignores all indicators there will be no room for her and decides to take her chances because L is obligated to let her in to avoid contact. Based on what I'm reading here W's chances are pretty good they would be exonerated in a protest. All W has to do is sell that they where pinned by the RC and had an overlap on L. Clearly barging isn't an automatic loser.


I see you speak wisdom, o barge-ed master?

grass-hoppa seek knowredge...


Jay

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: David Ingram] #275420
09/16/14 02:35 PM
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Isotope235 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
What if W ignores all indicators there will be no room for her and decides to take her chances because L is obligated to let her in to avoid contact.

If L has closed the door on W in time, but W goes in anyway and L has to take avoiding action, then W breaks RRS 11. If protest committee finds those facts, then L should prevail in the hearing.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: Isotope235] #275422
09/16/14 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope235
If L has closed the door on W in time,
Eric


so when is that? before overlap I presume?


Jay

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: waterbug_wpb] #275423
09/16/14 02:45 PM
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Isotope235 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
so when is that? before overlap I presume?
When L changes course to shut W out, she needs to give W enough space that W can avoid the mark (and meet her other obligations) by maneuvering promptly in a seamanlike way. If so, L has met her obligation under RRS 16.1.

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: bobcat] #275424
09/16/14 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bobcat
Here RED allowed Green to get to position 2. Not necessarily overlapped with R/C in our defined sense of overlap but Green doesn't have a legal out.
[Linked Image]

This diagram doesn't illustrate barging. It shows a case where the signal boat is not a mark (the mark is the buoy to the left). Here, the boat is an obstruction and inside boats are entitled to room. Note that this is a very unusual exception -- I have never seen a starting line set this way.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: Isotope235] #275425
09/16/14 03:29 PM
09/16/14 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by bobcat
Here RED allowed Green to get to position 2. Not necessarily overlapped with R/C in our defined sense of overlap but Green doesn't have a legal out.
[Linked Image]

This diagram doesn't illustrate barging. It shows a case where the signal boat is not a mark (the mark is the buoy to the left). Here, the boat is an obstruction and inside boats are entitled to room. Note that this is a very unusual exception -- I have never seen a starting line set this way.

I hope that helps,
Eric


Thank you. I thought it was just me.

I'm still struggling with "shutting the door" and "let them in". In my mind if I'm on a perfect close hauled drift to the boat I've shut the door ages ago but I can also see where W could argue I (L) let them in. The terms "let them in" and "shut the door" just seem way to open to interpretation. As a judge what do you expect to hear when these two arguments are being made? I know you've said once W is pinned by the boat it's game over W wins. I'm trying to avoid a he said she said and if I have to go to the room I want to kill it!



David Ingram
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http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: Isotope235] #275426
09/16/14 03:43 PM
09/16/14 03:43 PM
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Yup, that's my bad. I liked the picture and didn't take the time to understand what they were demonstrating.
My apologies for confusing the issue.

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: David Ingram] #275427
09/16/14 03:45 PM
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Quote
I'm trying to avoid a he said she said and if I have to go to the room I want to kill it!

I think that the advice here would be to start collecting witnesses. You do that by loudly hailing your intent as indicated in the first drawing.

Last edited by bobcat; 09/16/14 03:46 PM.
Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: David Ingram] #275428
09/16/14 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by bobcat
Here RED allowed Green to get to position 2. Not necessarily overlapped with R/C in our defined sense of overlap but Green doesn't have a legal out.
[Linked Image]

This diagram doesn't illustrate barging. It shows a case where the signal boat is not a mark (the mark is the buoy to the left). Here, the boat is an obstruction and inside boats are entitled to room. Note that this is a very unusual exception -- I have never seen a starting line set this way.

I hope that helps,
Eric


Thank you. I thought it was just me.

I'm still struggling with "shutting the door" and "let them in". In my mind if I'm on a perfect close hauled drift to the boat I've shut the door ages ago but I can also see where W could argue I (L) let them in. The terms "let them in" and "shut the door" just seem way to open to interpretation. As a judge what to you expect to hear when these two arguments are being made. I know you've said once W is pinned by the boat it's game over W wins. I'm trying to avoid a he said she said and if I have to go to the room I want to kill it!



Yeah, I was over here going "wubudu, what?" with regards to that diagram. I would say that if the orange boat was the starting boat the the starting end of the line, the red boats have established intent and direction to leave no room at the orange boat, the green boats would need to avoid both reds and the start boat.

That diagram seems to indicate that the flag is the right end of the starting line and that orange boat happens to be some race committee just sitting there (which I have seen before...usually in sloppy beer can races where one of the mark boats loosely tie up to the committee boat.

Which does beg an interesting question. If the sailing instructions don't indicate how to treat this boat that is moored up to the official starting boat (as an extension of that boat or whatever), how do you treat it?


Jake Kohl
Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: David Ingram] #275432
09/16/14 04:46 PM
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Isotope235 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
I'm still struggling with "shutting the door" and "let them in". In my mind if I'm on a perfect close hauled drift to the boat I've shut the door ages ago but I can also see where W could argue I (L) let them in. The terms "let them in" and "shut the door" just seem way to open to interpretation.

"Shut the door" is not a term used in the rules, but rather a convenient metaphor (probably from the days of door-to-door salesmen -- you had to shut it before they got a "foot in the door"). What I mean by it is that L, when she changes course to the point where there is no room for W to pass between her and the mark/committee boat, at that time W must have an opportunity to avoid the mark (by slowing down or passing it on the other side. If so (and L thereafter holds her course), then L has "shut the door" on W. If L waits until W can no longer avoid the mark by slowing down or turning away before changing course, then L has "let her in".

When talking to sailors about starting tactics, I often advise that they take a transit on the layline to the signal boat. That way, they know where to turn close-hauled in order to shut out windward boats (without getting shut out themselves). Provided you don't let them get clear ahead of you, you can "close the door" on windward boats well back of the signal boat.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: bobcat] #275433
09/16/14 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bobcat
I think that the advice here would be to start collecting witnesses.

The people on the race committee boat make excellent witnesses. They are impartial and have an up-close view of the incident (you know they are watching grin)

Re: Racing Rules: "Barging" [Re: Isotope235] #275434
09/16/14 05:03 PM
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This rule seems to say if someone camps behind the start boat making a little headway they own the start


Jeff Southall
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