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rudder separation / repaid advice #277528
02/10/15 05:10 PM
02/10/15 05:10 PM

M
MN3
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MN3
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M



First time out on my new (to me) cat this past weekend and rudders hit bottom 1 time (seemingly gently) on the way in the pass (trying to shoot the "cut through")

My new rudder seems to split a bit.

I was thining of using a dremel to grind it out a bit and use some west system (with 403 i have sitting around)


looking for tips and advice


[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Last edited by MN3; 02/10/15 05:10 PM.
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Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: ] #277529
02/10/15 05:29 PM
02/10/15 05:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
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Jake Offline
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It's hard to tell but that looks "paint colored" inside the crack...if that is the case, it's been that way for longer than your last sail.

Regardless, on the tip like that, it's probably fine just to fill and fair it. The 403 will be good for that.


Jake Kohl
Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: Jake] #277533
02/10/15 05:53 PM
02/10/15 05:53 PM

M
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thanks

Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: ] #277538
02/11/15 01:27 AM
02/11/15 01:27 AM
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northsea junkie Offline
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I would rather go for West 406 colloidal silica in this case of rudder repair.

406 gives a tougher resin compound with more abrasion resistance. It's a fraction heavier but that plays in your case no part. Only disadvantage is that it tends to be a bit more stiffer when applying. But if you use less, you can make it butter-like.

So be sure to fill the gaps and tears fully!

Last edited by northsea junkie; 02/11/15 06:38 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: ] #277542
02/11/15 09:26 AM
02/11/15 09:26 AM

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do you think i need to dremel it out first or just syringe the epoxy/filler in and clamp the rudder tight?

Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: ] #277543
02/11/15 10:16 AM
02/11/15 10:16 AM
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The key is always: get rid of the loose parts.

The foam inside has to be dry and has to be consistent. It's function is holding the two ruddersides of laminate at the fixed and proper distance.
This will lead to the resistance against flexing of the rudder and resistance against impact on the sides by obstacles.

If the filler compound is thin, then the foam maybe can suck some filler compound. But the foam has to be non 100% closed-cell for that.
So in this case it will make the need for the dremel less.

But if the core is 100% closed cell (test it with a "suction-kiss"), you better dremel it out carefully.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 02/11/15 10:51 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: ] #277544
02/11/15 11:22 AM
02/11/15 11:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by MN3
do you think i need to dremel it out first or just syringe the epoxy/filler in and clamp the rudder tight?


Like northsea said, you do need to clean up any loose bits first. If I remember correctly, you are sailing a Nacra? The cores they used in older foils are a solid resin based substance and you won't need to do anything weird with it - water migration is not a serious concern. You are also at the tip of the foil where there is not much stress to worry about (other than future hits against the bottom). I would just clean out any loose pieces, fill it, and sand it fair. It will hit bottom again sooner or later and need more attention again.


Jake Kohl
Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: ] #277545
02/11/15 11:33 AM
02/11/15 11:33 AM
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Filler is a bandaid dude. You will drag those rudders against the bottom again, i'm guessing. You could make like a tail block that they sometimes put on long board surfboards and glass that on. You would have to grind down the sides of the blade near the repair so that after you fair the glass job down, the repair material will still be there.
Band aid also fine just not great at stopping the splitting once you hit again. If you had 1 spare rudder you could take some time doing the repair and not miss sailing days.

Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: Jake] #277546
02/11/15 12:11 PM
02/11/15 12:11 PM

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Mystere 6.0
these rudders were purchased new a few years ago from mystere, and not used much (previous owner is a good friend of mine, i know the boat and its usage very well)
Quote

Like northsea said, you do need to clean up any loose bits first. If I remember correctly, you are sailing a Nacra?


Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: jollyrodgers] #277547
02/11/15 12:12 PM
02/11/15 12:12 PM

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tail block?
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
You could make like a tail block that they sometimes put on long board surfboards and glass that on.

Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: ] #277548
02/11/15 12:56 PM
02/11/15 12:56 PM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by MN3
tail block?
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
You could make like a tail block that they sometimes put on long board surfboards and glass that on.


Yeah, lost me on that one too.

Mystere...aaa...that's right. I believe Mystere used the same type of core system. There's no harm in making a quick patch and then keeping an eye on it. It's not like you own an infusion and the embedded forestay bridle attachment block is currently coming loose inside the hull and breaking the exterior fiberglass and gelcoat skin or anything. THAT you wouldn't want to just patch and see. tired


Jake Kohl
Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: ] #277550
02/11/15 01:03 PM
02/11/15 01:03 PM
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northsea junkie Offline
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a tailblock is a reinforcement at the edge of a board, or a rudder, skeg, daggerboard etc. Mostly made of hard-wood.

The trick is that you glue and shape this piece of wood before the lamination. So it's embedded in the final shape of the concerning part.

It will make the edge (= tail, tip, etc) more resistant for abrasion and you have created a "zone for sacrifice".

film tailblock

I used this method already for decades of years in my surfboard fins and also in my home made catrudders.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 02/11/15 01:23 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: ] #277551
02/11/15 01:39 PM
02/11/15 01:39 PM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



thanks

Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: ] #277552
02/11/15 02:53 PM
02/11/15 02:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
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northsea junkie Offline
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This tailblock method works at best if you use it on forehand. So in case of a ruddertip: you implant the hardwooden tip before covering the new shaped rudder with fibres/resin.

But even later on, like in your case, you can sort of use the same method:
Make a nice clean oblong hole with your dremel in the tipside of your damaged rudder. Then you fill this with rather stiff and hardened compoundpast (so made with use of colloidal silica powder).

This can ofcourse only work if the sides of the rudder are not too much damaged.
But even then you can laminate a small peace of the side part again with a "slanting joint".

You have then also created a tailblock on the ruddertip, but not of wood, but of epoxycompound. This will certainly be more resistant to abrasion and bottom crashes.

And you can repeat this procedure again infinite.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 02/11/15 02:56 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: ] #277553
02/11/15 05:54 PM
02/11/15 05:54 PM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



cool thanks
good video too!

Re: rudder separation / repaid advice [Re: ] #277622
02/17/15 07:58 AM
02/17/15 07:58 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
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M



With the help of Ellie's sailing shop ... we cleaned out the wound and created a slot

I laid up some epoxy and cloth and epoxied it inside the slot we created
[Linked Image]


dremeled it down to a close shape
[Linked Image]

faired the repair in
[Linked Image]


Then i dropped both rudders on the ground when the i kicked the table/horse leg - now i had 2 rudders to (re) repair ...


added some gelcoat
[Linked Image]

and painted

went sailing and immediately sailed too far out and and hit bottom - only chipped off a little paint

thanks for the input and help to all

Last edited by MN3; 02/17/15 08:02 AM.

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