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OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! #278693
04/30/15 10:27 AM
04/30/15 10:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
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Are you freaking kidding me!? The foiling F20 has a rating one point faster than the M20!? The DPN committee really is quite literally phoning it in! It's bad enough the numbers are completely fabricated but damn they aren't even trying anymore. JC I really hope you din't have anything to do with the number for the foiler. Next thing they will try to sell is that the F20 with curved boards is actually slower than the old school N20.

Oh sh!t I just poped a vein, what a bloody mess!

At least it was nice day and the company was good.

MKL Results

The DPN number is noted in the results. There doesn't appear to be a number for the F20 in the DPN tables.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
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Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: David Ingram] #278695
04/30/15 11:03 AM
04/30/15 11:03 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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And yet he only finished a few seconds in front of Brett on the Carbon rocket and minutes behind the RC30.... you honestly think JC was sandbagging?

Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: ThunderMuffin] #278697
04/30/15 11:52 AM
04/30/15 11:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
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David Ingram  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin
And yet he only finished a few seconds in front of Brett on the Carbon rocket and minutes behind the RC30.... you honestly think JC was sandbagging?


Tad at least try to do a small amount of homework before you make a post like that. There was a fair amount of grass and weed in the the bay forcing JC to litterly stop the boat and back it up to clear grass from his blades. We cleared our boards over 5 times before entering Card Sound. So with JC having to clear his boards an extremely time consuming and slow way and to still finish a few seconds in front of the top M20 does not say the boat deserves a gift of one point faster than the M20 (IMO)!

If the DPN committee asked JC what he thinks the number should be for the foiler then you better believe I have an issue with that! Please note I did say if.

Do you have an idea of the numbers he was posting for the spin ride back?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: David Ingram] #278698
04/30/15 12:08 PM
04/30/15 12:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Dude I'm going off of nothing other than the results. I don't have time to do homework - it's why I have you to set me straight.


Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: ThunderMuffin] #278700
04/30/15 12:10 PM
04/30/15 12:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Since I didn't watch the trackers, what route was the winning ticket? Hugging the western shore?
Straight up the middle?
Midnight pass?


Jay

Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: waterbug_wpb] #278702
04/30/15 12:12 PM
04/30/15 12:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Hey, what happened to Onsguard? Says DNF

Was it that light or was there a time limit?


Jay

Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: waterbug_wpb] #278706
04/30/15 12:30 PM
04/30/15 12:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Since I didn't watch the trackers, what route was the winning ticket? Hugging the western shore?
Straight up the middle?
Midnight pass?


You can still see the race replay:
http://kws.kattack.com/GEPlayer/GMPosDisplay.aspx?FeedID=1404

Too bad we only had four boats tracking. If you click leaderboard you can see the top speeds on the way back. Keep in mind the top speeds reset when I added the way back to the course and also the RC30 did not fly a spin on the way back. Also of note, the "Good Ship Lollipop" did not sail back to the club.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
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Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: cyberspeed] #278707
04/30/15 12:33 PM
04/30/15 12:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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And am I reading the results correctly that a ARC1 boat with a 125 PHRF won overall?

I see some (but not all) of the multihulls (with the 10/** rating) appear to be in a separate class with separate ranking(s)


Jay

Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: waterbug_wpb] #278708
04/30/15 12:38 PM
04/30/15 12:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
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David Ingram  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Since I didn't watch the trackers, what route was the winning ticket? Hugging the western shore?
Straight up the middle?
Midnight pass?


As far as I know everyone took the same route, right up the middle and both channels through the flats. Midnight pass was discussed but would only be considered if the boats in front did it and they didn't.

The weather was AWESOME! Maybe less than 10 at the start building to the mid teens or maybe a little more by the finish. We had long port tacks for the first 20 miles and the wind slowly went more square on the nose.





David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: David Ingram] #278711
04/30/15 01:38 PM
04/30/15 01:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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I was not there either so forgive the NOOB info request. I did homework and only have hearsay. Was the Nacra Foiler able to foil at all or was it foiling and lost a lot of time due to having to stop and reverse to clear seaweed?


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
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Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: David Ingram] #278712
04/30/15 01:39 PM
04/30/15 01:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Honestly, the performance differences here are in the same category of trying to handicap non-spinnaker boats against spinnaker boats or multihulls against monohulls. The performance range is going to vary so wildly over different wind speed and angles that it's just going to be absurd to try use any number to compare results between those different classifications.

You would be better off assigning a number between a foiling moth and a foiling cat.


Jake Kohl
Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: Jake] #278714
04/30/15 02:28 PM
04/30/15 02:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
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David Ingram  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Jake
Honestly, the performance differences here are in the same category of trying to handicap non-spinnaker boats against spinnaker boats or multihulls against monohulls. The performance range is going to vary so wildly over different wind speed and angles that it's just going to be absurd to try use any number to compare results between those different classifications.

You would be better off assigning a number between a foiling moth and a foiling cat.


100% Agree. Putting foilers with nonfoilers is ridiclous.

Once upon a time the question was posted here: Is a foiling multihull still a multihull? My answer was no then and it's hell no now! It's bad enough we have to sail against the two carbon fiber fly weights with a highly suspect number but at least they break 50% of the time when it's over 15. But a foiler with a silly number, come on! I've really tried to look past DPN racing and enjoy it for what it is but f@ck me! I really want to know what process was used to create that number.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: cyberspeed] #278716
04/30/15 02:56 PM
04/30/15 02:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
I don't think they got it from US Sailing. I can't even get them to reply to any emails after they gave me a mandated number to use for the Nacra 20 Carbon a few days before last years Florida 300. They still have not posted the provisional rating yet.

You still haven't answered my question:
Originally Posted by cyberspeed
I was not there either so forgive the NOOB info request. I did homework and only have hearsay. Was the Nacra Foiler able to foil at all or was it foiling and lost a lot of time due to having to stop and reverse to clear seaweed?

I was told that they were not foiling until the way back. I am going to pass on the info to US Sailing for all the good that will do. I am about done with them and thinking of using another rating system for next year.

Last edited by cyberspeed; 04/30/15 02:58 PM.

craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
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Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: cyberspeed] #278717
04/30/15 03:20 PM
04/30/15 03:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
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David Ingram  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by cyberspeed
I don't think they got it from US Sailing. I can't even get them to reply to any emails after they gave me a mandated number to use for the Nacra 20 Carbon a few days before last years Florida 300. They still have not posted the provisional rating yet.

You still haven't answered my question:
Originally Posted by cyberspeed
I was not there either so forgive the NOOB info request. I did homework and only have hearsay. Was the Nacra Foiler able to foil at all or was it foiling and lost a lot of time due to having to stop and reverse to clear seaweed?

I was told that they were not foiling until the way back. I am going to pass on the info to US Sailing for all the good that will do. I am about done with them and thinking of using another rating system for next year.


I didn't answer because I don't know and they were gone before we got back to the club. I knew about the grass clearing because our ground crew knew what they had to do and you can see the evidence of it on the track. All I can is they weren't foiling at the start and they were quickly to far away to see any kind of detail.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: David Ingram] #278718
04/30/15 04:16 PM
04/30/15 04:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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cyberspeed  Offline
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See...that is an answer! Not so hard is it.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
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Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: cyberspeed] #278720
04/30/15 05:20 PM
04/30/15 05:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline OP
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by cyberspeed
See...that is an answer! Not so hard is it.


Clearly i've pissed in your cereal I just wish I knew when I did it so I could at least enjoy it and I don't care enough to go back through the thread to try and figure it out.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: David Ingram] #278721
04/30/15 06:11 PM
04/30/15 06:11 PM
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brucat Offline
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Craig, I recall chatting about this quite a bit last year. Here are some quick thoughts:

There isn't enough data getting back to the PN committee for the system to work as intended. They pull numbers from the vendor, or sailors, or any race data or ratings from other systems that they can for a provisional number, then they're supposed to tweak that with actual race data, which isn't being reported to them, and they do not actively look for it.

The "mandated" number from last year was suggested to them by the sailors, as I recall?

Foiling vs. non-foiling is as pointless as spin vs. non-spin.

There's no good excuse for the PN committee not responding to your email. Now it's a pattern.

I saw your email but wanted the PN committee to reply first. I intended to follow through for you after a few days, as I did last year, but forgot. I apologize for that.

Where do we go from here? We have the authority to help improve handicap rating systems, but no one has stepped forward to take ownership of implementing a new system. This is where we get into deja-vu, as this topic comes up at least once a year...

All: Open to any and all suggestions, just be ready to help implement.

Mike


Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: David Ingram] #278722
04/30/15 06:40 PM
04/30/15 06:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin
And yet he only finished a few seconds in front of Brett on the Carbon rocket and minutes behind the RC30.... you honestly think JC was sandbagging?


Tad at least try to do a small amount of homework before you make a post like that. There was a fair amount of grass and weed in the the bay forcing JC to litterly stop the boat and back it up to clear grass from his blades. We cleared our boards over 5 times before entering Card Sound. So with JC having to clear his boards an extremely time consuming and slow way and to still finish a few seconds in front of the top M20 does not say the boat deserves a gift of one point faster than the M20 (IMO)!

If the DPN committee asked JC what he thinks the number should be for the foiler then you better believe I have an issue with that! Please note I did say if.

Do you have an idea of the numbers he was posting for the spin ride back?


So how does the Marstrom never have to clear weed? Ya think maybe they had to too, therefore evening things out again. Sort of reminds me of a rating difference between the F-18 and the Inter/N-20. Kinda sucks don't it?


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

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Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
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Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #278723
04/30/15 07:25 PM
04/30/15 07:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

So how does the Marstrom never have to clear weed? Ya think maybe they had to too, therefore evening things out again. Sort of reminds me of a rating difference between the F-18 and the Inter/N-20. Kinda sucks don't it?


Of course the M had to clear weed we all did and you know we never stop and back up to clear weeds we simplyt tell the skipper to unload the boat and in what can't be more that 2-3 seconds the board is cleared, same goes for the rudder. And quick crew can knock it out in 30 seconds from wire to wire. Stopping the boat and backing up is probably in the same window but stopping and backing up is crazy expensive. Most skippers have a hissy fit about the crew coming off the wire and unloading the boat can you imagine stopping and backing up!? I stand by my outrage about the F20 foiling number. Weed clearing is NOT a variable in creating a number. For the F20 do do as well as they did with the method they had to clear weeds is impressive. If they were let off the chain... bye bye bitches!

The comparison between the M20 and F20c foiler and N20 and F18 is not even remotely close. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the N20 fleet doesn't hold a candle to the F18 fleet talent. Put your best N20 team against the top F18 team and nobody will bet the N20 team. Pick the skipper/crew boat of your choice F18, N20, M20, F20, F16, H16... and let's settle it. Every time an N20 team gets on an F18 they get freaking schooled until they figure out how to sail it and you sold yours before you figured it out. Todd I don't know why you keep going here.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: OH COME ON! That's right gramps is bent! [Re: David Ingram] #278724
04/30/15 08:04 PM
04/30/15 08:04 PM
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Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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I believe there will be multiple Foiling 20s and Phantoms at Eurocat and Texel. Those results should provide a good comparison to create a more equitable number. Basing the rating off of the Texel number might be a good place to start.


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