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New FOILING A-Class P/N number? #280400
09/01/15 05:33 PM
09/01/15 05:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Bob_Curry Offline OP
old hand
Bob_Curry  Offline OP
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Posts: 744
Now that I'm back to sailing my A, it has been real eye-opening to see the foilers go past so fast that it has brought to me this topic. The current number (floating) is 64.5. How fast should the foiler be rated; 62.0? It has to be addressed for any p/n racing. I would like to entertain your thoughts before I send up a proposal to US Sailing.

See y'all on the water,
Bob wink


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, Iíll hug my elephant, you kiss youíre a $$.Ē
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Bob_Curry] #280402
09/01/15 07:48 PM
09/01/15 07:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Bob_Curry
Now that I'm back to sailing my A, it has been real eye-opening to see the foilers go past so fast that it has brought to me this topic. The current number (floating) is 64.5. How fast should the foiler be rated; 62.0? It has to be addressed for any p/n racing. I would like to entertain your thoughts before I send up a proposal to US Sailing.

See y'all on the water,
Bob wink


Bob, good on you for running that up the flag pole, but sadly I think your drilling a dry hole. Enjoy your gift I doubt it will get sorted while you and I are still sailing USSailing hasn't shown itself to be a forward thinking organization. Meaning get a foiler or be a bitch with the rest of us.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Bob_Curry] #280403
09/01/15 07:59 PM
09/01/15 07:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
I just read your signature Bob, holy sh!t now! How long have you been in the basement?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Bob_Curry] #280404
09/01/15 08:35 PM
09/01/15 08:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Bob_Curry Offline OP
old hand
Bob_Curry  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Ding,

I have been gone for over 2.5 years! Time flies. The "basement" has a very bright light in there and really opened my eyes to a lot of good and great things. I learned a new-to-me fantastic skillset too! It's good to be back while I'm still physically able to play.

Bob


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, Iíll hug my elephant, you kiss youíre a $$.Ē
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Bob_Curry] #280406
09/01/15 11:56 PM
09/01/15 11:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Bob
The current PN committee is committed to following the letter of the yardstick documents .... since they are crica 1960 or so.... This means.... that you will need to generate data for a class..
There is nothing wrong with this approach... it has full integrity... it is just useless for handicap multihull racing in 2015.

There won't be any adjustments because of sea changes like foiling.

Since the PN system accepts the Class as the Class chooses to define itself.. ... Foilers and floaters are A class. With a data driven process... it will take some time for the data turned in from flyers to adjust the ratings using the standard allowed changes year to year.

The SCHRS measurement rule is the best option for handicap racing with the onset of fleets of foilers.... (or at least as good as one is going to get)


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Mark Schneider] #280407
09/02/15 05:34 AM
09/02/15 05:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Bob_Curry Offline OP
old hand
Bob_Curry  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Thanks for the explanation. The SCHRS measurement rule appears the best option for handicap racing now and into the future.

Bob


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, Iíll hug my elephant, you kiss youíre a $$.Ē
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Bob_Curry] #280408
09/02/15 06:53 AM
09/02/15 06:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
You guys read like a couple of bad actors reading an advertisement script. hah.

One thing you might want to take note of, the US A-class association is allowing boats that don't fall within the limits of rule 8 to race with them. Meaning, boats with more horizontal foiling surface area than the a-class rules allow (which will allow easier foiling and easier retrofitting of older boats). Keep in mind that I'm not making any comment about whether or not this makes overall sense but with that in mind, how should any handicap rule handle THAT? It's not even technically a class. Good luck suckers.


Jake Kohl
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Bob_Curry] #280412
09/02/15 09:18 AM
09/02/15 09:18 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
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Posts: 3,969
Lots of good points here.

Before throwing US Sailing under the bus for this issue, please remember these two points (echoing from above):

1. Foiling has been accepted by the class to fall within its one-design rules.

2. PN is results-based, not measurement-based.

While provisional numbers may be issued (using ratings from measurement-based systems), they need to be revised using race data, which is less and less available with every passing year.

But, that is a moot point in this case, unless/until the A Class changes its position on foilers.

To reiterate that last point, that is precisely the response I got to my concerns about the potential for the Alter Cup in Bristol becoming a farce due to a partial fleet of foilers. While I disagreed that was the best plan, I do understand their position about not wanting to get involved with class politics.

Having said that, we got lucky and foiling didn't enter the equation as the event was actually sailed. As these boats get better, and the sailors become more skilled, foiling time will increase, the delta between the foilers and floaters will increase, and this is a real risk to the integrity of the class (and major events using them).

But, at the end of the day, it needs to first be managed by the class, then we can have a discussion about numbers (and systems).

Mike

Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: brucat] #280413
09/02/15 09:20 AM
09/02/15 09:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Naples, FL
so the "A Class" is now both foiling and floating models.

And if DPN is results based, will the DPN number for the class get faster as more foilers compete in regattas?

So, at some point (probably in the foreseeable future) the DPN for "A Class" will be such that a floating A boat will never be able to sail close to the number?


Jay

Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Jake] #280415
09/02/15 09:23 AM
09/02/15 09:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
added to which - is trying to put a handicap rating between a foiler and non-foiler even practical? It's kinda like handicapping a spin boat vs. a non-spin boat on steroids. You can put numbers on it but the capabilities are so wildly different in various conditions (and configurations) that any number is going to have very inconsistent results. Personally, I would give up on the idea that you'll ever have a reliable handicap number to compete foiler vs. non foiler.


Jake Kohl
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #280416
09/02/15 09:26 AM
09/02/15 09:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
so the "A Class" is now both foiling and floating models.

And if DPN is results based, will the DPN number for the class get faster as more foilers compete in regattas?

So, at some point (probably in the foreseeable future) the DPN for "A Class" will be such that a floating A boat will never be able to sail close to the number?


IF anyone were actually sending such data to the PN committee (they are at best reactive, never proactive), then yes, your assumption is correct.

Of course, it would take a lot of fast foilers and years of events to make a statistical change large enough to have that effect. Until then, a good foiler should be a number killer.

Mike

Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Jake] #280418
09/02/15 09:53 AM
09/02/15 09:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Originally Posted by Jake
added to which - is trying to put a handicap rating between a foiler and non-foiler even practical? It's kinda like handicapping a spin boat vs. a non-spin boat on steroids. You can put numbers on it but the capabilities are so wildly different in various conditions (and configurations) that any number is going to have very inconsistent results. Personally, I would give up on the idea that you'll ever have a reliable handicap number to compete foiler vs. non foiler.


This is an outstanding point, one which has been discussed here often.

Mike

Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Jake] #280419
09/02/15 11:53 AM
09/02/15 11:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Jake

Your position ignores the real world!

Pick any event.... A foiling a cat shows up and wants to race handicap... If you push him into a class of one.... he won't be back (or stay).... ditto a phantom or carbon 20...

so, Choose... between a large racing fleet of cats on the line... or three tiny fleets of cats in three races.

Personally..... the old saying... WEll... There are Horses for courses.... and today.... It was the Foiler Course!

These days... racers choose one design.... there is not much oxygen for a handicap race of spin boats or sloops or flyers. ... Therefore... you are better off with one big race.... and some wise ol fart at the bar telling war stories about when the Shark was the greatest catamaran on the water. (illustrating the point that in multihulls... things change!!)

and the key point....have the OA Serve good beer!

In practical terms... just have the OA publish how the fleets will be split up..... None of the...well... lets see who shows up and then decide....

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 09/02/15 11:56 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Bob_Curry] #280421
09/02/15 12:27 PM
09/02/15 12:27 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
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Mark, you have a good point, but the reality is that running spins and non-spins together never really works, either.

Mike

Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Mark Schneider] #280422
09/02/15 12:31 PM
09/02/15 12:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jake

Your position ignores the real world!

Pick any event.... A foiling a cat shows up and wants to race handicap... If you push him into a class of one.... he won't be back (or stay).... ditto a phantom or carbon 20...

so, Choose... between a large racing fleet of cats on the line... or three tiny fleets of cats in three races.

Personally..... the old saying... WEll... There are Horses for courses.... and today.... It was the Foiler Course!

These days... racers choose one design.... there is not much oxygen for a handicap race of spin boats or sloops or flyers. ... Therefore... you are better off with one big race.... and some wise ol fart at the bar telling war stories about when the Shark was the greatest catamaran on the water. (illustrating the point that in multihulls... things change!!)

and the key point....have the OA Serve good beer!

In practical terms... just have the OA publish how the fleets will be split up..... None of the...well... lets see who shows up and then decide....


The guys putting full foiling fidgets on their boats don't care one iota about handicap. It's you guys that are getting left behind that are trying to make sense out of the situation and if I were in the same boat (haha, see what I did there?), I would be trying to find similar displacement boats that I could continue to race among and be happy - or move onto something else. Seriously, find a guy that's hacking away at his $15,000 boat to install full foiling gear and see if you can distract him long enough so he can tell us how important that handicap number is in his game plan.

The foiler knows he is going to have an unfair advantage in most conditions and none of them are clambering for a handicap number to level the playing field. It's about the technological challenge and speed for most of these guys.

PS - before anyone gets rubbed the wrong way with my reply, I really meant all of this with a nod and a wink as if we were having a conversation while throwing back beers.


Jake Kohl
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Jake] #280423
09/02/15 01:29 PM
09/02/15 01:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
Pooh-Bah
P.M.  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jake

Your position ignores the real world!

Pick any event.... A foiling a cat shows up and wants to race handicap... If you push him into a class of one.... he won't be back (or stay).... ditto a phantom or carbon 20...

so, Choose... between a large racing fleet of cats on the line... or three tiny fleets of cats in three races.

Personally..... the old saying... WEll... There are Horses for courses.... and today.... It was the Foiler Course!

These days... racers choose one design.... there is not much oxygen for a handicap race of spin boats or sloops or flyers. ... Therefore... you are better off with one big race.... and some wise ol fart at the bar telling war stories about when the Shark was the greatest catamaran on the water. (illustrating the point that in multihulls... things change!!)

and the key point....have the OA Serve good beer!

In practical terms... just have the OA publish how the fleets will be split up..... None of the...well... lets see who shows up and then decide....


The guys putting full foiling fidgets on their boats don't care one iota about handicap. It's you guys that are getting left behind that are trying to make sense out of the situation and if I were in the same boat (haha, see what I did there?), I would be trying to find similar displacement boats that I could continue to race among and be happy - or move onto something else. Seriously, find a guy that's hacking away at his $15,000 boat to install full foiling gear and see if you can distract him long enough so he can tell us how important that handicap number is in his game plan.

The foiler knows he is going to have an unfair advantage in most conditions and none of them are clambering for a handicap number to level the playing field. It's about the technological challenge and speed for most of these guys.

PS - before anyone gets rubbed the wrong way with my reply, I really meant all of this with a nod and a wink as if we were having a conversation while throwing back beers.


Foilers are like Honey Badgers. . . .they don't give a sh!t. wink



Philip
USA #1006
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Jake] #280424
09/02/15 01:51 PM
09/02/15 01:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Jake
I would be trying to find similar displacement boats that I could continue to race among and be happy


I'm with you on that Jake. Although my DPN is just about that of a H-16 with spin. But I'm 8' longer and 10' wider.

Just wait until I barge the line smile


Jay

Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: brucat] #280426
09/02/15 02:58 PM
09/02/15 02:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by brucat
Lots of good points here.

Before throwing US Sailing under the bus for this issue, please remember these two points (echoing from above):

1. Foiling has been accepted by the class to fall within its one-design rules.

2. PN is results-based, not measurement-based.

While provisional numbers may be issued (using ratings from measurement-based systems), they need to be revised using race data, which is less and less available with every passing year.

But, that is a moot point in this case, unless/until the A Class changes its position on foilers.

To reiterate that last point, that is precisely the response I got to my concerns about the potential for the Alter Cup in Bristol becoming a farce due to a partial fleet of foilers. While I disagreed that was the best plan, I do understand their position about not wanting to get involved with class politics.

Having said that, we got lucky and foiling didn't enter the equation as the event was actually sailed. As these boats get better, and the sailors become more skilled, foiling time will increase, the delta between the foilers and floaters will increase, and this is a real risk to the integrity of the class (and major events using them).

But, at the end of the day, it needs to first be managed by the class, then we can have a discussion about numbers (and systems).

Mike


Um... in my opinon this logic does not apply to the F20c and a more incorrect number you cannot find and that was ALL USSailing. What else you got?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Jake] #280427
09/02/15 03:01 PM
09/02/15 03:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Jake
added to which - is trying to put a handicap rating between a foiler and non-foiler even practical? It's kinda like handicapping a spin boat vs. a non-spin boat on steroids. You can put numbers on it but the capabilities are so wildly different in various conditions (and configurations) that any number is going to have very inconsistent results. Personally, I would give up on the idea that you'll ever have a reliable handicap number to compete foiler vs. non foiler.


100% agree, thinking floaters and foilers can be scored fairly together is a freaking fantasy.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New FOILING A-Class P/N number? [Re: Bob_Curry] #280429
09/02/15 04:53 PM
09/02/15 04:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Bob_Curry Offline OP
old hand
Bob_Curry  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
That's what I have been thinking too.....time for one more year of bitching then sell the boat. I'm to old to foil.

Bob


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, Iíll hug my elephant, you kiss youíre a $$.Ē
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
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