Announcements
New Discussions
10 ft zodiac boat
by AudreyGrace. 02/24/20 02:08 AM
Worrell 1000 Ground Crew Finder
by John Williams. 02/18/20 06:50 PM
9 foot inflatable boat
by AudreyGrace. 02/18/20 12:58 AM
Inflatable dinghy Canada
by AudreyGrace. 02/11/20 03:50 AM
Bringing back the cat
by dave mosley. 02/03/20 08:12 AM
Worrell 1000
by John Williams. 01/29/20 04:38 PM
F85SR Concept Boat
by phill. 01/29/20 03:44 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
anti-slip cover rudder-stick #280516
09/14/15 02:22 AM
09/14/15 02:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline OP
addict
northsea junkie  Offline OP
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
Like most of us, I've sailed my whole life since my youth. As a result of this my hands have become xxl (size 11).

And because of that, grabbing a rudderstick is for me like holding a pencil. After 15 minutes sailing my underarms are soured and start to ache.

So I have tried several tricks to make the grip on the rudderstick more robust and more anti-slippery. But nothing helps and lasts after heavy use.
See pic below: expensive superlux bicycle handlebar tape after one time sailing: torn and slippery

[Linked Image]


But now I've found finally something which looks succesfully;
Leather hockey-stick griptape:


[Linked Image]

Very soft and pleasant for my hands.

Finally, as an "au revoir" to this beautifull summer we had, a nice shot of returning to our beach in an onshore wind.


[Linked Image]


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: northsea junkie] #280518
09/14/15 05:43 AM
09/14/15 05:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
I've always been a fan of the cork ball. I find myself hanging onto the tiller like it's a manual shift lever in a car. With the ball in the palm of my hand and the tiller extension going out between my fingers.


I'm boatless.
Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: northsea junkie] #280520
09/14/15 07:03 AM
09/14/15 07:03 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Rather than spend a bunch of money on exotic tape, I have been using the same stuff you can buy for $3/roll at the drug store in the Band-Aid department. It's just a white cloth tape, about an inch and a half wide. I tape up my tiller extension just like I used to tape the top of my hockey sticks, by first pulling out about two feet of the cloth tape, stick the loose end to the tiller extension, spin the roll of tape so the 2' extended tape will wrap up into a tight cord, then wrap that cord around the tiller in a descending spiral, and then wrap the wide tape over the top of the cord. Here's a picture which is worth a thousand words!

Well... the picture won't post, so to get a good look go to 'googleimages.com' and put in 'hockey stick grip tape styles' and you'll see what I'm talking about. There are a couple pictures of guys taping up their sticks, you can see the cord underlying the tape, which makes for ridges on the finished product, which makes it much easier to grip. Instead of doing the entire 6 feet of tiller extension, I put about 18" of grip wrap in the two locations I use most often, 1. At the very end of the stick for when I'm out on the wire, and 2. About the middle, where I would be holding the stick when I'm not on the wire.

I found a YouTube video of the procedure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDmkSfMfEzc

Last edited by Timbo; 09/14/15 07:16 AM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: Timbo] #280521
09/14/15 08:28 AM
09/14/15 08:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
the "beautiful summer" shows you in what appears to be a drysuit...

smile


Jay

Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: waterbug_wpb] #280522
09/14/15 09:02 AM
09/14/15 09:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline OP
addict
northsea junkie  Offline OP
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
No, Jay, it's an ocean sailing trouser from XM.

I wear it always over my wetsuit for warmth and protection of my wetsuit. Even on hot days over my shorty wetsuit, which feels a bit silly on your legs.

I use my drysuit only in extreme temperatures.



ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: northsea junkie] #280524
09/14/15 10:22 AM
09/14/15 10:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
yes, I forgot your latitude number starts with a "5"?

Mine starts with a "2", so wetsuits are relegated to the coldest winter days...

Ironic, however, that we still wear "full suit" while sailing... but only for sun protection, not warmth.

After the sunburn/windburn I got on my face last weekend (despite zinc oxide), I'm looking for a wicking/"cool max" balaclava. Then I can complete the amature ninja look...


Jay

Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: waterbug_wpb] #280525
09/14/15 10:55 AM
09/14/15 10:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline OP
addict
northsea junkie  Offline OP
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Ironic, however, that we still wear "full suit" while sailing... but only for sun protection, not warmth.



Don't you have any windchill overthere on your latitude???

I remember sailing days in the south of France with airtemperatures above 30 Celcius and people could still suffer hypothermia.
Because the cold sea water on their skin was evaporated by a hot land-wind in a flash.

Taking all their body-warmth away.



ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: northsea junkie] #280526
09/14/15 11:01 AM
09/14/15 11:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
Ronald it is cool that you are still sailing in that surf.
We always called that "stick" a tiller extension. Frequently we would tell sailors that a light 2 finger touch on the helm or tiller extension is how to steer when ever possible. The boat should sail itself when well trimmed.
Other than that, did you try boom grip? Also the deck grip stuff with the adhesive back is thicker than boom grip and would make the tiller extension fatter.

Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: northsea junkie] #280527
09/14/15 01:15 PM
09/14/15 01:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline OP
addict
northsea junkie  Offline OP
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
Rodger, you are absolutely right about a well trimmed boat.

Problem in my case is that due to wear and tear my rudder system didn't function 100% anymore. So I had to adjust the rake of my blades a bit more forward, in order to create more grip in the automatic release system.
Because of that, I now have a little weather helm (which is told to be good for sailing yachts). Nevertheless, like you, I prefer the 2finger touch. (Also for my underarms !)

By the way I would have to re-new my stays in order to move the sail a bit more forward for that same reason.


Windsurf boomgrip is, as far as I know, not known here in Holland; I use X6 Neillpride booms which have a fixed gripcover.
And deckgrip (EVO foam?) seems at first sight a bit too thick and do I only know in plate format.


Last edited by northsea junkie; 09/14/15 02:14 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: northsea junkie] #280528
09/14/15 03:31 PM
09/14/15 03:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by northsea junkie


Don't you have any windchill overthere on your latitude???

I remember sailing days in the south of France with airtemperatures above 30 Celcius and people could still suffer hypothermia.
Because the cold sea water on their skin was evaporated by a hot land-wind in a flash.

Taking all their body-warmth away.



The water temperature and air temperature are very close in all seasons except winter/early spring (where water temperature is above air temperature)

Example: Today Air =32C, water = 28C


Jay

Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: northsea junkie] #280558
09/18/15 02:39 PM
09/18/15 02:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
rudder rake:
From my experience raking the tip of the rudders forward takes away weather helm, and if you lean them too far forward, lee helm kicks in. I have a home built v bottom boardless cat that follows these principals. Raking the mast all the way back wouldn't counter the lee helm caused by having the rudders raked too far forward.

For the grip examples, try the online store here, or a place that has a windsurf and kite section. i think some boom and deck grips are pretty much the same, but the thickness and texture vary.

Of course when sailing with your rudders partially down that handle you have looks pretty useful.

Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: jollyrodgers] #280561
09/19/15 01:59 AM
09/19/15 01:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline OP
addict
northsea junkie  Offline OP
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
rudder rake:
From my experience raking the tip of the rudders forward takes away weather helm, and if you lean them too far forward, lee helm kicks in. thickness and texture vary.



You mention just what I consider still a wonderfull paradox in catsailing:

Everybody knows that when you pass the lateral point (the centralpoint of sidewards resistence of the hulls) forward off the pressure point of the sailforce, the boat will turn into the wind.
You can also move the sail in opposite direction, which gives the same effect. This is all well established theory.
Remind the discovering of windsurfing. I've sailed for years a cat with no rudders (patin a bela) which I had to steer exactly the same way.
Primarely by shifting my weight on the hulls.

So can somebody on this forum explain me why I get weather helm as soon as a rudder blade releases itself during sailing???????????
Even if they are 1 cm out off their lock. Don't the rudderblades play that role in the lateral point as I think they do?



ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: northsea junkie] #280563
09/19/15 10:54 AM
09/19/15 10:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
I wonder if you will get an answer to your question Ronald.

But in the mean time here is a video of a patin a bela cat. There will be some here that never knew there is a class of cat that doesn't have rudders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK6WFc9wmWQ

Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: jollyrodgers] #280585
09/23/15 09:21 AM
09/23/15 09:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline OP
addict
northsea junkie  Offline OP
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
I wonder if you will get an answer to your question Ronald.



Rodger, I just found the answer:

http://www.catsail.com/archives/v2-i8/feature1.htm

It's a very comprehensive story about this paradox and I recommend it to everyone.
It will take away the common misunderstanding of rudderrake.

Rick, you are mentioned and honoured in this article. So you knew!


Last edited by northsea junkie; 09/23/15 09:23 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: northsea junkie] #280589
09/23/15 02:21 PM
09/23/15 02:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
Thanks for the link Ronald.
Part of the problem with this subject is the terminology. The helm is the person steering or the steering system. Using the term "weather helm" to talk about the balance of the boat without the input of the rudders causes confusion. Describing the balance of the center of pressure of the rig vs the center of resistance of the hulls, rudders,and daggerboards combined needs a term that doesn't have helm in it.
Saying that raking the rudders forward doesn't reduce weather helm is just being picky to cause confusion. It doesn't change the interaction of the rig and the resistance to side force, but it sure as hell changes the boat's need to round up, or weather helm. No, they took the term away and gave us tiller tug.

This drawing is not proving anything to me;
[Linked Image]

The Hobie hulls don't have a straight keel line, and he is not accounting for leeway.
He also says rudder tow-in is to compensate for what is going on in his drawing. No, the leeward rudder points how it has to point when you are loading it up. It is the windward rudder that can cavitate or just be draggy, if your alignment is off. There is also slop in the system that seems to be taken up if you slightly tow in the rudders. One solution is to raise the windward rudder.
He leaves out the main reason for raking the mast aft on a Hobie. It loads up the rudders which are the closest thing to a daggerboard that is on the boat. The lift that a V bottom hull gives is minimal so they try to shift that job to the rudders. On a Tornado, the centerboards lack aspect ratio efficiency and they like to share that job with the rudders also.
Just my opinion. Also my name is david jr. My dad and mom sailed Sharks with Rick in the 60's. Also my dad was active in promoting Florida cat sailing in the 60's and 70's.

Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: jollyrodgers] #280594
09/24/15 06:10 AM
09/24/15 06:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline OP
addict
northsea junkie  Offline OP
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers

Saying that raking the rudders forward doesn't reduce weather helm is just being picky to cause confusion. It doesn't change the interaction of the rig and the resistance to side force, but it sure as hell changes the boat's need to round up, or weather helm. No, they took the term away and gave us tiller tug.



David, but that's just the heart of the matter....

What you feel on the tiller ("on the helm as a helmsman") is the tug when you want to correct the "weatherhelm".
Raking the rudders forward only increases the rudder leverage on the tiller. So it makes it easier to correct for weatherhelm.

But it doesn't take that away. So formal said: rudder rake doesn't influence weatherhelm as a phenomenom. It helps coping with it (or make it worse handling).


Last edited by northsea junkie; 09/24/15 07:54 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: northsea junkie] #280599
09/24/15 11:06 AM
09/24/15 11:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
How do know if you have tiller tug or weather helm on a boat that rounds up when you let go of the tiller with the rudders all the way down?

Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: jollyrodgers] #280601
09/24/15 12:25 PM
09/24/15 12:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline OP
addict
northsea junkie  Offline OP
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
If you are sailing with rudders down and you let go of the tiller (the helm) and the boat doesn't round up, then you have a normal/neutral helm.

If it does round up however, then you have weather helm. This can only be decreased by "constructural" changes, like moving the sail more forward, enlarge the front sail, moving the centreboard backwards, etc.

You can ofcourse also contra-steer with your rudder and that's the situation where the "tug" comes into play. You will literally feel it in your arms. (And as explained in the previous post, you can seek help for decreasing this tug by increasing your rudder leverage.)

So weather helm induces tiller tug.


Nevertheless you can have a well trimmed cat which has almost a neutral helm with just a slight touch of weatherhelm for the safety. And still be confrontated with severe tiller tug.
For instance when you start in shallow water with your rudders up in the water.
Because the cat is also slightly drifting away to leeward, it will press the rudderblades (pivotting) to windward if you let go of the tiller.
Trying to correct this, you can feel, depending on the cat and the circumstances a tremendous tug. Even when just trying to hold the tillers straight. Remember: there is no weatherhelm involved now!!!!!!, because the cat has neutral helm.

That's exactly what I feel, starting on my beach!

Last edited by northsea junkie; 09/24/15 12:33 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: northsea junkie] #280611
09/25/15 06:47 AM
09/25/15 06:47 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



great info
i have been fighting some serious lee helm this past year

Re: anti-slip cover rudder-stick [Re: northsea junkie] #280617
09/25/15 02:42 PM
09/25/15 02:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
Mn3,
How do you know it isn't rudder push or whatever the opposite of rudder tug would be?

but seriously, the drawing and explanation in the article linked above that shows the pivot point of the rudder stock vs. the working center on the rudder blade does explain a lot.
[Linked Image]

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 34 guests, and 313 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
wgilmour, Jacob7876, Wozza, kvc0615, CaptainAhab
8007 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
phill 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,378
Posts266,975
Members8,007
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1