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Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: TeamChums] #281109
11/17/15 07:23 PM
11/17/15 07:23 PM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Um.... do you really believe that number?
Is that number fair to the fleet?

You would be better off taking the SCHRS tables and the Texel Tables and deciding what you want to set the DPN to...relative to your fleet.

This way... the fleet and the nacra owner can hunt you down and bitch... They will buy you many many more beers this way...
If all you can tell them is ... well.... I looked it up on US Sailing.... No beer for you.


crac.sailregattas.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Ventucky Red] #281110
11/17/15 08:03 PM
11/17/15 08:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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cyberspeed  Offline
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It still only has a provisional rating which is 57.9. It only comes with curved boards. I have tried to get them to post it for a year and a half now and gave up dealing with them. I am thinking about switiching to SCHRS. They have ratings for production foiling boats and will return emails.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: cyberspeed] #281112
11/18/15 07:21 AM
11/18/15 07:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by cyberspeed
It still only has a provisional rating which is 57.9. It only comes with curved boards. I have tried to get them to post it for a year and a half now and gave up dealing with them. I am thinking about switiching to SCHRS. They have ratings for production foiling boats and will return emails.


I support switching to SCHRS for the FL300.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: David Ingram] #281118
11/18/15 09:19 AM
11/18/15 09:19 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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Thanks for the feedback.


craig van eaton
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Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: cyberspeed] #281120
11/18/15 12:59 PM
11/18/15 12:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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I don't know anyone on the current PN committee however.... I can say they are following the letter of the rule in the system.

They are NOT going to be able to publish a PN number for a boat without a one design fleet actively racing in handicap buoys races. They need valid data and the reality is that the US does not generate it. It is a conservative position. Back in the day.... you would have had to prove that you at least 5 or 10 boats actively racing handicap and OD just to get a provisional rating published in the table. Two boats in the country are not a fleet....

There are very good reasons for this level of rigor.... It stops a rating that is essentially a personal handicap from substituting for the boat class.

Yes its a change from the Darline Hobock era and sailors have to take this into account when they adopt the system.

In portsmouth... it was an honor system that bound each owner to saying that their boat was a completely class legal XXX.

SCHRS and Texel can also operate on the honor system... AND it can also use individual rating certificates for Stock OD, One offs or highly modified OD boats. It's up the OA to spell it out in the NOR what standard is in play.


Last edited by Mark Schneider; 11/18/15 01:11 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Mark Schneider] #281129
11/19/15 07:04 AM
11/19/15 07:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I don't know anyone on the current PN committee however.... I can say they are following the letter of the rule in the system.



Otherwise known as malicious compliance. It is the responsibility of the committee to recognize the issues with the system and develop an action plan to address those issues. Maybe the committee is concerned USSailing will invite them to leave if they color outside the lines. No that can't be it that would be crazy talk.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: David Ingram] #281130
11/19/15 10:48 AM
11/19/15 10:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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sssssh.... a us sailing conspiracy? really?

People Volunteer to do the job....(it is thankless) When you look at US situation with respect to new cat designs... plus all of the modifications to one design boats and the very very small number of qualified buoy races that give you data... You have to make a decision. Does it work? Is it transparent? is it fair?

How far can you stretch the rules of the PN system?...

We have been making **** up for years AND... no one design fleet wants to take on getting data on their class relative to the yardstick boats. So.. Do you continue just making up new ratings.... AND wind adjustments.... just because you take a SCHRS rating and now GUESS what the US dpn rating should be is not a solution to the problem.

If the OA wants to do that... nothing will stop them.... just don't ask the US PN committee to participate in the flim flam to cover your butt.. You don't get the seal of approval when you want to race your N17 against an F18 fleet.

So... It is quite responsible to say.. .. ... Nah... it is better to preserved the rating tables for the boats (dinghies and cats) that data exist for. Clubs can use the data and pn system as designed... or they can change and make up their own table or pick a different system.

I have been telling you that the system for cats was BROKEN... not repairable and cat fleets should move on for over 5 years.

ITS TIME TO MOVE ON!

The PN committee is just preserving the integrity of the tables as designed.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Mark Schneider] #281131
11/19/15 12:34 PM
11/19/15 12:34 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
sssssh.... a us sailing conspiracy? really?

People Volunteer to do the job....(it is thankless) When you look at US situation with respect to new cat designs... plus all of the modifications to one design boats and the very very small number of qualified buoy races that give you data... You have to make a decision. Does it work? Is it transparent? is it fair?

How far can you stretch the rules of the PN system?...

We have been making **** up for years AND... no one design fleet wants to take on getting data on their class relative to the yardstick boats. So.. Do you continue just making up new ratings.... AND wind adjustments.... just because you take a SCHRS rating and now GUESS what the US dpn rating should be is not a solution to the problem.

If the OA wants to do that... nothing will stop them.... just don't ask the US PN committee to participate in the flim flam to cover your butt.. You don't get the seal of approval when you want to race your N17 against an F18 fleet.

So... It is quite responsible to say.. .. ... Nah... it is better to preserved the rating tables for the boats (dinghies and cats) that data exist for. Clubs can use the data and pn system as designed... or they can change and make up their own table or pick a different system.

I have been telling you that the system for cats was BROKEN... not repairable and cat fleets should move on for over 5 years.

ITS TIME TO MOVE ON!

The PN committee is just preserving the integrity of the tables as designed.


USSailing seal approval, ask the DPN commmitee to participate in the flim flam to cover our butt. What are you talking about!? Nobody cares about the USSailing seal of approval! Just because it's on the USSailing site doesn't give it any more cred than another handicap system. I kinda doubt anyone (except me, I'm a bit slow) is asking the DPN committee to do anything because we learned years ago the answer is always no and there will be no action taken.

And the whopper of them all..."The PN committee is just preserving the integrity of the tables as designed." did you really type that with a straight face Mark? Come on, you can tell me we are buddies.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: David Ingram] #281132
11/19/15 01:49 PM
11/19/15 01:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote

USSailing seal approval, ask the DPN commmitee to participate in the flim flam to cover our butt. What are you talking about!? Nobody cares about the USSailing seal of approval! Just because it's on the USSailing site doesn't give it any more cred than another handicap system.


Dave....are you the reactionary to anything US Sailing or just the conventional one design nazi and opposed to all handicap racing in general.. I get the frustration with unrelated past US Sailing issues... but .... its time to let it go. I have punted on getting you to see the value of handicap racing in a dying sport.

um to the point... ... Of course you care about the Sanction of US Sailing.. If you go to Steeplechase with your ragged out N17 half baked foiler... You have no rating. So... you now get to race under the Rick White Steeplechase modified PN system. He does his best to make up a rating... BUT the fact that your N17 regatta budget includes buying drinks for Rick White to discuss your rating does raise some questions in the minds of others..

US Sailing is not going to sanction the N17 rating. EVEN IF they have a perfect crystal ball and can guess the exact fair rating for the half baked POS N17.

So...Do you care about the Rick White handicap system? probably not.... do the competitors in the Steeplechase care?... perhaps. Why race if you don't have 100% buy in to the rules?

The fact that they could see you at the bar buying drinks for the handicaper is not what transparency means.


The whole point of a national rating system is that for good or bad... It is sanctioned and transparent in following the design rules of the rating system..

Perhaps I should remind you of when we had alter cup qualifiers...eg somebody cared about the final results... and the rating based on bad data gave you a really high F16 rating relative to the fleet. Suddenly Bob Curry and others demanded a modification. And so it was done ...
Bottom line... this was not portsmouth.... we PHRFd the rating to make it fair for the fleet.


The integrity of the tables... YUP... I did write that with a straight face... I participated in guestimatting ratings for things like the F16. We did not follow the PN system....because we had no quality data... (and I doubt there is a uniformly good set of data to date). Did we know what we were doing... YUP!!! we punted on the transparency of the handicap system to meet the demand of a fair table for the upcoming Area D qualifier


The new foiling boats make this approach a bridge too far.

The choice is simple.... don't race the new boats under US sailing Portmsouth handicap. Make up a local rating....eg.. The Rick White Steeplechase Rating system...Transparency means that you sort it out at the bar with plenty of drinks at hand...and tell the competitors what the rating will be....
or change to a more robust handicap system.


So...I agree with the PN committee to tell you to buzz off unless you have race data of at least 25 buoy races from a fleet of at least 5 boats competing against a fleet of 5 yardstick boats. if you give them that data... they will give you a provisional rating... This is what I mean by preserving the integrity of the PN table.

otherwise... go make it up on your own a Steeplechase rating system and let the competitors know what the deal is before they sign up for the race. Stop supporting the whining about US sailing not doing what you want...

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 11/19/15 02:56 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Mark Schneider] #281133
11/19/15 05:24 PM
11/19/15 05:24 PM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


The integrity of the tables... YUP... I did write that with a straight face... I participated in guestimatting ratings for things like the F16. We did not follow the PN system....because we had no quality data... (and I doubt there is a uniformly good set of data to date). Did we know what we were doing... YUP!!! we punted on the transparency of the handicap system to meet the demand of a fair table for the upcoming Area D qualifier



I think we're ignoring the possibility that nobody since Darlene has been able to run the math required to update the tables even if there was data to work with....hence the need for some of the guestimation.


Jake Kohl
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Jake] #281135
11/19/15 10:32 PM
11/19/15 10:32 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Jake, Why would that matter?

the old boats that have ratings with tons of data behind them will not change. You only have to run the program for new boats... and you have no data..

So... until you have a data set of 25 races with a fleet of un rated boats racing a fleet of yardsticks...... not a problem.

(I think they actually can run the program... they just can't modify the code or want to rewrite the thing for the 21st century.)


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Mark Schneider] #281137
11/20/15 10:10 AM
11/20/15 10:10 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

So... until you have a data set of 25 races with a fleet of un rated boats racing a fleet of yardsticks...... not a problem.


which boats are considered "yardsticks"? And what if that boat's design changes (as part of an OD rule, etc.)?

Say the F18 is the "yardstick" and they allow a modified sailplan as part of their OD rule... or a carbon stick. If either of these change the sailing characteristics (speed, angles, etc) wouldn't it move the entire PHRF table?

I think there was a blog about this issue discussing the Farr 40 along with Time on Distance vs. Time on Time systems.

Being relegated to PHRF myself (not a fan, but not sure I can convince anyone of the merits of another system) and rarely racing OD events, which system best combines both monohull and multihull fleets? I'm not even going to touch foilers at this point because I doubt I'd see a Moth, G4 or N17 anywhere I sail...

I think in my PHRF area I rate about the same as a Melges 24 and a Hobie 16 non-spin. Which seems a little odd?


Jay

Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Mark Schneider] #281138
11/20/15 10:11 AM
11/20/15 10:11 AM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jake, Why would that matter?

the old boats that have ratings with tons of data behind them will not change. You only have to run the program for new boats... and you have no data..

So... until you have a data set of 25 races with a fleet of un rated boats racing a fleet of yardsticks...... not a problem.

(I think they actually can run the program... they just can't modify the code or want to rewrite the thing for the 21st century.)


It matters because if anyone puts in the effort to collect data that can't be processed they would be wasting their time. In the bigger sense, if the numbers are able to still be compiled then it would be nice to know what the committee feels is needed in order to update numbers or assign new numbers so the system can remain relevant to our sport. If they are fixed and unchangeable then it is more motivation to start looking at something like SCHRS that can adapt as our sport changes.

There IS data available and the statistics will work on a relatively small sample size because it's weighted. I could probably dig back into three or four years of EMSA F16/F18/Acat single fleet handicap racing and provide a dozen regattas of data but I seriously don't think anyone since Jamie/Darlene has had a chance of processing it. I have a Fortran background and took a stab at understand it a long time ago but the statistics are really advanced and I concluded that I needed more of a statistics background (or the time to gain the knowledge) to be able to modify it in any meaningful/reliable way.


Jake Kohl
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Jake] #281139
11/20/15 10:15 AM
11/20/15 10:15 AM
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Naples, FL
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Jake, if I understand what you and others are saying is that the DP-N system is not being actively managed since the passing of Darlene's era?

If this is indeed the case, is there a more actively managed handicap system? I would suspect if there isn't much activity on the DP-N system (or no one knows how to update it) it will eventually prove to be of little use as boats/designs evolve. Even strict OD boats often allow some changes (maybe not in Star or Etchells..)?


Jay

Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: waterbug_wpb] #281140
11/20/15 11:15 AM
11/20/15 11:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Jake, if I understand what you and others are saying is that the DP-N system is not being actively managed since the passing of Darlene's era?


I don't have any factual information about whether or not that is a true statement. I do know that the system is very specialized and when I was involved, just before Darlene's passing, there was not anybody else able to run it although others had tried to pick it up and take that off Darlene. Jamie Diamond got involved at some point but I'm not sure he got it into a workable fashion either - I think he too had intended to make some modifications to it. However, I'm not clear whether Jamie was trying to just run it or modify it. I looked at it for a brief period and quickly learned that it was over my head in trying to modify it but I never tried to compile it as it was. The Fortran compiler was expensive at the time but it looks like you can get free compilers now. Darlene eventually took it back up in a limited fashion. I do not know of anyone that has actually compiled numbers using the actual system since Darlene but I have not been involved in several years.

The software (Fortran) is tricky to run and requires a good deal of specialization with old programming / compiling software. My experience with Fortran originated in the time when it was running on IBM mainframes and you would interface with a command line green monochrome terminal station and had to schedule compiling time with the university. Someone on the committee today may well be able to compile the software and statistics as it stands but it's not something that just anyone could pick up and run with. It's definitely not an excel spreadsheet. ;-)


Jake Kohl
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Mark Schneider] #281141
11/20/15 12:24 PM
11/20/15 12:24 PM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote

USSailing seal approval, ask the DPN commmitee to participate in the flim flam to cover our butt. What are you talking about!? Nobody cares about the USSailing seal of approval! Just because it's on the USSailing site doesn't give it any more cred than another handicap system.


Dave....are you the reactionary to anything US Sailing or just the conventional one design nazi and opposed to all handicap racing in general.. I get the frustration with unrelated past US Sailing issues... but .... its time to let it go. I have punted on getting you to see the value of handicap racing in a dying sport.

um to the point... ... Of course you care about the Sanction of US Sailing.. If you go to Steeplechase with your ragged out N17 half baked foiler... You have no rating. So... you now get to race under the Rick White Steeplechase modified PN system. He does his best to make up a rating... BUT the fact that your N17 regatta budget includes buying drinks for Rick White to discuss your rating does raise some questions in the minds of others..

US Sailing is not going to sanction the N17 rating. EVEN IF they have a perfect crystal ball and can guess the exact fair rating for the half baked POS N17.

So...Do you care about the Rick White handicap system? probably not.... do the competitors in the Steeplechase care?... perhaps. Why race if you don't have 100% buy in to the rules?

The fact that they could see you at the bar buying drinks for the handicaper is not what transparency means.


The whole point of a national rating system is that for good or bad... It is sanctioned and transparent in following the design rules of the rating system..

Perhaps I should remind you of when we had alter cup qualifiers...eg somebody cared about the final results... and the rating based on bad data gave you a really high F16 rating relative to the fleet. Suddenly Bob Curry and others demanded a modification. And so it was done ...
Bottom line... this was not portsmouth.... we PHRFd the rating to make it fair for the fleet.


The integrity of the tables... YUP... I did write that with a straight face... I participated in guestimatting ratings for things like the F16. We did not follow the PN system....because we had no quality data... (and I doubt there is a uniformly good set of data to date). Did we know what we were doing... YUP!!! we punted on the transparency of the handicap system to meet the demand of a fair table for the upcoming Area D qualifier


The new foiling boats make this approach a bridge too far.

The choice is simple.... don't race the new boats under US sailing Portmsouth handicap. Make up a local rating....eg.. The Rick White Steeplechase Rating system...Transparency means that you sort it out at the bar with plenty of drinks at hand...and tell the competitors what the rating will be....
or change to a more robust handicap system.


So...I agree with the PN committee to tell you to buzz off unless you have race data of at least 25 buoy races from a fleet of at least 5 boats competing against a fleet of 5 yardstick boats. if you give them that data... they will give you a provisional rating... This is what I mean by preserving the integrity of the PN table.

otherwise... go make it up on your own a Steeplechase rating system and let the competitors know what the deal is before they sign up for the race. Stop supporting the whining about US sailing not doing what you want...


Iíd stop harping on USSailing if they made some positive changes that actually supported the sailing community. The fact that you defend DPN committeeís lack of action is indicative of what USSailing is all about! Then to defend the DPNís committee lack of action as maintaining the integrity of the system when they clearly and by your own admission willfully violated that integrity leaves me scratching my head.

Please donít put words in my mouth or tell me what Iím thinking! I never put any value in DPN results I clearly understand what the results represent and know they arenít worth the paper they are printed on. So DPN, SCHRS, Texel it matters not! I just draw the line at completely fabricating numbers, geesh! Please try to pay closer attention itís not the first time Iíve said this.

Because there is NO integrity with the DPN system the fact it is USSailing sanctioned means nothing, you only have to read your own words to see that statement is true.

Of course you support USSailing telling me or anyone else to go pound sand, thatís kinda your thing.

Only you would tell someone in the sailing community who you pretend to represent to piss off. This position invites the community to move on without USSailing.

Iíll stop whining when you stop being a sock puppet for USSailing. No that's not true, I'll stop whining when I stop caring.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: David Ingram] #281142
11/20/15 03:53 PM
11/20/15 03:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram

Please donít put words in my mouth or tell me what Iím thinking!



Dave.... you are thinking about a rum....and kitten videos...


Jay

Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Ventucky Red] #281146
11/21/15 05:59 PM
11/21/15 05:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Bob_Curry Offline
old hand
Bob_Curry  Offline
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The US Sailing DP-N system is dead to me.


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, Iíll hug my elephant, you kiss youíre a $$.Ē
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Ventucky Red] #281148
11/21/15 07:41 PM
11/21/15 07:41 PM
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Posts: 3,969
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It's dead because there is no data.

The fact that most of you refuse to join, then publicly rant about no support doesn't help your case.

No one, and I mean absolutely no one, at US Sailing cares if you use a different system.

We've had these debates for eons here. A standard system is necessary for credibility. No one has crunched numbers to prove that there is a better system.

If one of the other systems is better to use, and has the support of the fleet, I will fully support it as the MHC chair.

Mike

Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: brucat] #281158
11/22/15 08:57 AM
11/22/15 08:57 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
It's dead because there is no data.

The fact that most of you refuse to join, then publicly rant about no support doesn't help your case.

No one, and I mean absolutely no one, at US Sailing cares if you use a different system.

We've had these debates for eons here. A standard system is necessary for credibility. No one has crunched numbers to prove that there is a better system.

If one of the other systems is better to use, and has the support of the fleet, I will fully support it as the MHC chair.

Mike


We have (I have personally), on multiple occasions, compared the systems with number crunching. Regardless, it's all handicap racing - it's never going to be perfect. It's a comparison of "worse" or "less worse".


Jake Kohl
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