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Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Ventucky Red] #281285
12/03/15 10:37 AM
12/03/15 10:37 AM
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Who at US Sailing, Jake?

Todd, sadly, that's not new news. Carl is a really nice guy and is dedicated to Portsmouth, and I usually have dinner with him at the meetings, but I think he needs our help (maybe more than he knows). Nate and I used to race H16s before he and Chris bailed to bigger boats (N6.0 IIRC), maybe he can be our lifeline to fix this.

Let's take a different stab at this. Who here is willing to serve on a task force under the Multihull Racing Committee? Help me come up with a solid plan (NOT limited to DPN) to present at the annual meeting in Feb.

Mike

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: brucat] #281287
12/03/15 05:04 PM
12/03/15 05:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Who at US Sailing, Jake?


Mike, It was about 9 to 11 years ago and something that I was working on with Darline. The US Sailing website was undergoing a rebuild at that time and, though we thought it would be a great time to incorporate it, it wasn't seen as such by whomever was responsible for the site at the time. I can't recall who we were working with then.


Jake Kohl
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: cyberspeed] #281288
12/03/15 06:08 PM
12/03/15 06:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Originally Posted by cyberspeed


Mark, here is an interesting case:
Hans Geisler has shown strong interest in the full Florida 300 for next year. His G-Cat 5.0m has a square top main and just ordered a reacher type sail that will not use a spin pole but be attached to the front bows with a traveler system to switch sides. What would we need from him to get a rating?


By the way, add a wing mast with w/spreaders instead of a tear drop w/out spreaders and boomless now vs stock w/boom. Oh yea, He's planning on having T-foils built into the hull for the 300. I've seen the mock-up.



Have Fun
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: catman] #281289
12/03/15 08:34 PM
12/03/15 08:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by cyberspeed


Mark, here is an interesting case:
Hans Geisler has shown strong interest in the full Florida 300 for next year. His G-Cat 5.0m has a square top main and just ordered a reacher type sail that will not use a spin pole but be attached to the front bows with a traveler system to switch sides. What would we need from him to get a rating?


By the way, add a wing mast with w/spreaders instead of a tear drop w/out spreaders and boomless now vs stock w/boom. Oh yea, He's planning on having T-foils built into the hull for the 300. I've seen the mock-up.



There are DPN multipliers you use for each additional/upgraded item and sail.Foils would be different boards. They are in the charts or used to be.


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Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Ventucky Red] #281290
12/03/15 11:37 PM
12/03/15 11:37 PM
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Posts: 1,063
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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Well, I was hoping Rick would be the one to break the news but we have been talking and Rick is willing to step up to the plate and score the Steeplechase using SCHRS this year. I will work with Rick on scoring to try to make it seamless.

Dave Ingram also stepped up to the plate and offered to help with sorting out ratings and I will help out where needed. A good concerted effort from posters on this thread willing to step up to the plate to try and make competition as fair as possible.

Mark has also been beneficial and as the North American SCHRS representative, I am sure I will be looking to him for help as well.

Between Hans Geisler, Ralph Cole and Dave Ingram, we are close to getting a rating nailed down for the G-Cat. This will be a very specific rating becuase only two were ever made. Hans Also sent us additional info on his other G-Cat models. I am going to go through the process for my Supercat 20 hopefully at the Miami-Key Largo.

My personal opinion on foiling is that it is a different animal from other cats and should be scored as such but should have their own class. Even though SCHRS incorporates foiling into ratings, they also state that foilers should have their own class.


Quote
From: http://www.schrs.com/rules.php
E.3 Foiling catamarans
An event organiser or race committee should consider scoring foiling boats separately. Foiling boats are defined as boats with lifting foils of non-constant radius that are capable of flight above the water.


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Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: cyberspeed] #281293
12/04/15 09:09 AM
12/04/15 09:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Well, I was hoping Rick would be the one to break the news but we have been talking and Rick is willing to step up to the plate and score the Steeplechase using SCHRS this year. I will work with Rick on scoring to try to make it seamless.

Dave Ingram also stepped up to the plate and offered to help with sorting out ratings and I will help out where needed. A good concerted effort from posters on this thread willing to step up to the plate to try and make competition as fair as possible.

Mark has also been beneficial and as the North American SCHRS representative, I am sure I will be looking to him for help as well.

Between Hans Geisler, Ralph Cole and Dave Ingram, we are close to getting a rating nailed down for the G-Cat. This will be a very specific rating becuase only two were ever made. Hans Also sent us additional info on his other G-Cat models. I am going to go through the process for my Supercat 20 hopefully at the Miami-Key Largo.

My personal opinion on foiling is that it is a different animal from other cats and should be scored as such but should have their own class. Even though SCHRS incorporates foiling into ratings, they also state that foilers should have their own class.


Quote
From: http://www.schrs.com/rules.php
E.3 Foiling catamarans
An event organiser or race committee should consider scoring foiling boats separately. Foiling boats are defined as boats with lifting foils of non-constant radius that are capable of flight above the water.


But will the G-cat 5.0 be able to fly? How does that figure in?

Look the word here is fair, not perfect. Not sure how the rest of you do it but we normally split boat classes up so they are not more than 10 dpn points apart. When they are or when the race is run as a single class the highest number almost always wins. I am talking distance racing.

Maybe the best way to do this is to get the average of the dpn numbers of the stock boats and give it a number not more than 10 away. Or maybe take the scratch boat number and do 10. Just a thought.




Have Fun
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #281294
12/04/15 09:13 AM
12/04/15 09:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by cyberspeed


Mark, here is an interesting case:
Hans Geisler has shown strong interest in the full Florida 300 for next year. His G-Cat 5.0m has a square top main and just ordered a reacher type sail that will not use a spin pole but be attached to the front bows with a traveler system to switch sides. What would we need from him to get a rating?


By the way, add a wing mast with w/spreaders instead of a tear drop w/out spreaders and boomless now vs stock w/boom. Oh yea, He's planning on having T-foils built into the hull for the 300. I've seen the mock-up.



There are DPN multipliers you use for each additional/upgraded item and sail.Foils would be different boards. They are in the charts or used to be.


Certainly, however if the talk is about how the system isn't being updated or accurate, etc. Can we say the mod's are fair?


Have Fun
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: catman] #281296
12/04/15 12:32 PM
12/04/15 12:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,063
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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Originally Posted by catman
But will the G-cat 5.0 be able to fly? How does that figure in?

Look the word here is fair, not perfect. Not sure how the rest of you do it but we normally split boat classes up so they are not more than 10 dpn points apart. When they are or when the race is run as a single class the highest number almost always wins. I am talking distance racing.

Maybe the best way to do this is to get the average of the dpn numbers of the stock boats and give it a number not more than 10 away. Or maybe take the scratch boat number and do 10. Just a thought.


I am not exactly sure what level of foiling Hans is planning. I am not even sure if he intends to us his foils for competition. He loves building boats and playing with design ideas.

Not sure why you quoted me on your statements. Your statements revolve around DPN and I just stated we are going to be using a measurement based system for the Steeplchase.


craig van eaton
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Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Ventucky Red] #281297
12/04/15 03:35 PM
12/04/15 03:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,063
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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I have been doing a little research. It appears Portsmouth has not been updated since at least 2010.

An interesting thread:
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=209310&page=1

All of the points are still valid today. It is also interesting to see the personal viewpoints then and now. Without Portsmouth being updated before next years season starts, it is hard to justify using a system that has not been updated in over 5 years. US Sailing either needs to update Portsmouth or switch to a different system.


craig van eaton
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Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: cyberspeed] #281298
12/04/15 04:11 PM
12/04/15 04:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
US Sailing either needs to update Portsmouth or switch to a different system.


Craig.... You have this backwards... Sailors and Clubs need to choose.

US sailing ONLY had a say in what handicap system to use when the were the co OA for the Alter cup qualifiers....

So... You as the OA for the Florida 300 get to pick what ever handicap system you want... Hell you can even get Ding to spit out his ratings table and that becomes the final word.

I will say it again... Sailors and Catamaran Clubs simply need to choose.

(in defense of the PN commmitte... what would you have them do... PHRF some numbers and pretend they have a portsmouth table?)


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Ventucky Red] #281299
12/04/15 04:43 PM
12/04/15 04:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,063
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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Hi Mark,
You are correct but we also administer a series where we are not in charge of all events. I work directly with the event organizers on specific items but in the end it is their race and many hate change especially when it is a lot more work.

Sail Series Promotions is also a member of US Sailing and makes sense to have our races use the same scoring system as the organization we are a member of.

It is great that Rick has agreed to use SCHRS for the Steeplechase but other event organizers might not be so willing. I have already gotten a little push back from some sailors not wanting change and asking why change. If US Sailing declared Portsmouth dead and switched to SCHRS, there would be no need for discussions. From a series stand point, it makes more sense having all events use the same rating system as the rest of the country instead of going rouge but if the only system has not been updated in five years and doesn't have ratings for any of the new boats, it really leaves you no choice unless you make up your own ratings for new boats like the Nacra 17 olympic boat.

There is also the fact that we are going to have to measure a lot more boats if we are the only ones to use SCHRS. By using the same system globally, that load would be shared by other events. So far, we need get ratings for the G-Cat 6.1 and ARC 22. That is assuming the N-20 is stock. I seriously doubt the MKL and Mug Cup would switch unless US Sailing switches.

Last edited by cyberspeed; 12/04/15 04:50 PM.

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Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: cyberspeed] #281300
12/04/15 04:56 PM
12/04/15 04:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Hi Mark,
You are correct but we also administer a series where we are not in charge of all events. I work directly with the event organizers on specific items but in the end it is their race and many hate change especially when it is a lot more work.

Sail Series Promotions is also a member of US Sailing and makes sense to have our races use the same scoring system as the organization we are a member of.

It is great that Rick has agreed to use SCHRS for the Steeplechase but other event organizers might not be so willing. I have already gotten a little push back from some sailors not wanting change and asking why change. If US Sailing declared Portsmouth dead and switched to SCHRS, there would be no need for discussions. From a series stand point, it makes more sense having all events use the same rating system as the rest of the country instead of going rouge but if the only system has not been updated in five years and doesn't have ratings for any of the new boats, it really leaves you no choice unless you make up your own ratings for new boats like the Nacra 17 olympic boat.

There is also the fact that we are going to have to measure a lot more boats if we are the only ones to use SCHRS. By using the same system globally, that load would be shared by other events. So far, we need get ratings for the G-Cat 6.1 and ARC 22. That is assuming the N-20 is stock. I seriously doubt the MKL and Mug Cup would switch unless US Sailing switches.


N20 "european" had some sail area differences, fyi...smaller spinnaker if I remember correctly.


Jake Kohl
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Ventucky Red] #281301
12/04/15 05:56 PM
12/04/15 05:56 PM
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Craig is right, there will be confusion and resistance. That's no reason for us to sit back and do nothing, we just need to ensure that we approach this with a solid plan and good communication.

The fact that the table hasn't changed is both a cause and effect of the lack of handicap racing.

Mike

Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: brucat] #281304
12/04/15 10:24 PM
12/04/15 10:24 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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I understand the concerns...

but you can't tell the Portsmouth chair and committee to ignore the Portsmouth structure and make up ratings.... (been there... done that... It does not end particularly well) Without data... there is nothing that they should do....

re US Sailing sanction... well... you are also a member of ISAF through US Sailing. I think the authority issue is managed by using ISAF SCHRS.

Ah... change is always tough...but the OA's will listen to the sailors..... It is hardly more work for them. It's the owner of the non rated boat's responsibility to get an accurate rating. Peer pressure will ensure they do a fair job of it.... or they can buy the service.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Ventucky Red] #281307
12/05/15 11:18 AM
12/05/15 11:18 AM
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It's a sea change that not all sailors will embrace. We need to help them understand the need for the change, and convince them of the fairness.

Saying it's a boat owners responsibility is probably the biggest change, and if that becomes a hurdle, you just trade one problem for another.

That's our challenge. I actually think there's an easy way to manage this. If anyone wants to collaborate, let me know. Post here, PM or email me.

Mike

Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Ventucky Red] #281308
12/05/15 02:57 PM
12/05/15 02:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,063
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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The more work the less likely someone will participate. If you are saying that someone cannot participate in a race unless they have their boat certified, many of the weeekend warriors will just not race. Distance racing numbers are low as it is, adding another hurdle will definitely not help.

Always interested in making things easier. If we could develop some sort of semi standard adjustment that could be used provisionally similar to Portsmouth's, that would go a long way in making implementation easier for smaller races. If it can be done for portsmouth, it should be able to be done for SCHRS.

I am fine with keeping open discussion on this forum. It gives more transparency, others might have good ideas and always looking for someone to help reduce the workload.


craig van eaton
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Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: wildtsail7] #281309
12/05/15 03:05 PM
12/05/15 03:05 PM

M
MN3
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wildtsail7 - I am pretty sure it is your avitar is causing pop up boxes/errors - it is because it is uploaded to a secure folder - it would be nice if you re-upload it so we don't all ge the pop up box every time we are on a page with you. Please disregard if i am incorrect, but i am pretty sure ...
Originally Posted by wildtsail7
Mike, a good place to start. A very reliable source told me a few months ago that Jack Giehart (Executive Director of US Sailing) had told him that he was completely unaware of the status of the Portsmouth system and who ran it. They continued to talk about how there should be handicap racing in dinghies in the U.S.

I've tried to obtain Portsmouth numbers for 3 boats this year, one Nacra, 2 RS Sailboats.
I started with the email on the U.S. Sailing Website "PortsmouthNA@att.net), those kept getting bounced.
I reach out to a friend of mine at U.S. Sailing, Nate Titcomb who is in charge of PHRF and etc, apparently he is supposed to oversee Portsmouth to some extent.
Nate tried to help me get in touch with Carl Reigart (in charge of system) several times with no luck.
I finally ended up doing some research, found Carl's number andI spoke with him. He admitted that the system is out of date because no one sends him data to update it. He told me to send him data from another email address of mine, he received it and acknowledged it but I never heard back.
I actually just sent the email again now, but I have to admit my bandwith for dealing with this is low.
If someone could take this up the ladder at US Sailing it would be awesome.
Personally I think the US needs to move on from Portsmouth and adopt something that rest of the world (starting with Europe) with a system such as Texel or PY.

Last edited by MN3; 12/05/15 03:07 PM.
Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: cyberspeed] #281315
12/07/15 08:41 AM
12/07/15 08:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by cyberspeed
If you are saying that someone cannot participate in a race unless they have their boat certified, many of the weeekend warriors will just not race.


funny, but I considered any sailor who doesn't feel the need for an official measurement/rating a "cruising" sailor.

So, how about a "cruising" class in your event where you can just sail whatever the heck you want (as long as it's seaworthy) for the pure joy of completing the event. If the cruisers want to side-bet rum amongst themselves so be it.

Those hell-bent on seeing their name in lights must go get their boats measured, etc.

By entering the cruising group, people can try out various tweaks, franken designs, or just classic boats within a structured event (with some boundaries so as not to tax OA and RC, of course) without the need for measurements, etc. Those that aren't "racers" can still benefit from the race/series and possibly provide additional publicity/revenue for the events.

Didn't you try out something similar in the last 300 with day-races for those not entering the entire event? How did that fare?


Jay

Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: Jake] #281318
12/07/15 05:57 PM
12/07/15 05:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake

N20 "european" had some sail area differences, fyi...smaller spinnaker if I remember correctly.


Rumor or real Jake? If real it takes 10 minutes to measure a kite and the number can be plugged into the formula for a modified number.


David Ingram
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Re: Portsmouth DP-N [Re: waterbug_wpb] #281319
12/07/15 07:46 PM
12/07/15 07:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,063
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Didn't you try out something similar in the last 300 with day-races for those not entering the entire event? How did that fare?

No, we had a separate race for the last day of the Florida 300 called the "Dogfight". Race committees don't tend to want cruisers in distance races. Makes for a longer day.


craig van eaton
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