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Handicapping Clarification (Nacra 5.8) #282343
04/05/16 06:16 AM
04/05/16 06:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 104
gold coast
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fast energy Offline OP
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fast energy  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 104
gold coast
Hi All
i was sailing at southport on Saturday and had noticed that the Nacra 5.8 was sailing with a square top sails and i said that you would need more than a 8 to 1 main sheet to run this sail and they said that they now run a 10 to 1 all this improvement with no reduction in handicap.
So the question is can we change our boats to improve boat speed with no handicap reduction ?
Just my throughts


Brett Kelly
Fast Energy
Gold Coast
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Handicapping Clarification (Nacra 5.8) [Re: fast energy] #282350
04/05/16 07:22 PM
04/05/16 07:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 3
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Cat-titude Offline
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I don’t believe so, Brett.

The Yachting Victoria Yardsticks (which from my perspective should simply be adopted as the default Australian Yardsticks) operate on the basis of class-approved specifications / rules. By their own admission they have evolved to give Race Officers guidance in running fair racing amongst mixed-fleet competition. Indeed, they make mention of the ability for race officers to adopt “locally derived” yardsticks to accommodate variations in local conditions should these prove influential to fair sailing.

According to various websites, the Nacra 5.8 is a one-design class, with a pin-head sail identified within their standard specification. In an ideal world, competitors who have made modifications such as those you have observed would be up-front with the Race Officer responsible for any event being held, and an adjusted yardstick worked out (based upon other variations within classes identified within YV Yardstick) to accommodate fair sailing for all.

In the real world, I am sure Race Officers do not mind competitors making them aware of any such modifications within the fleet which have the potential to unfairly influence results.

Steve

Re: Handicapping Clarification (Nacra 5.8) [Re: fast energy] #282353
04/06/16 05:25 AM
04/06/16 05:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 104
gold coast
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fast energy Offline OP
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fast energy  Offline OP
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gold coast
ok thanks steve
just through i might have mention this update but i sail against the nacra 5.8 in my club these 5.8 are fast with or with out the square top and there square top sails look good


Brett Kelly
Fast Energy
Gold Coast
Re: Handicapping Clarification (Nacra 5.8) [Re: fast energy] #282354
04/06/16 05:47 AM
04/06/16 05:47 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,348
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Online content
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JeffS  Online Content
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Posts: 1,348
Kingston SE South Australia
Square top sail is standard now in Aus, you can't order a pin head, the sail is the same size, its not a wingmast, there is still no boom so is not as easy as a boom with outhaul to shape so no change to handicap. Having said that i used mine for the first time last satuday on a 60km distance race in wind around 20kts, its awesome to sail with but I'm not sure I was any better than if I used a brand new Dacron sail. Lots of boats have changes that don't alter the handicap, the full carbon mozzy that I sail against sometimes doesn't get a lower handicap

Last edited by JeffS; 04/06/16 05:50 AM.

Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Cant have two Ram Raiders at the same time so not named yet
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Arrow 1576
Re: Handicapping Clarification (Nacra 5.8) [Re: fast energy] #282359
04/06/16 05:55 PM
04/06/16 05:55 PM

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Scarecrow
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Scarecrow
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The full carbon Mossie is still constrained by minimum class weights so there is no reason for the yardstick not to be relevant.

I'm assuming the Brisbane Catamaran Centre and/or a class rep have contacted the VYC and advised them to the changes to class rules so the rating can be adjusted for next season. wink

Re: Handicapping Clarification (Nacra 5.8) [Re: fast energy] #282360
04/06/16 06:28 PM
04/06/16 06:28 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
Matt_Stone Offline
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Matt_Stone  Offline
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There is no sailing advantage on carbon hulls. We have a min weight.

Re: Handicapping Clarification (Nacra 5.8) [Re: fast energy] #282387
04/10/16 06:58 PM
04/10/16 06:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 50
Brisvegas | QLD
drew_mac Offline
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drew_mac  Offline
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Brisvegas | QLD

Interesting discussion.

A 16sq now has 80 with square top and a plus 1 point adjustment for pin head.

It would seem reasonable that same should apply to a 5.8.

Why change the sail if it has no advantage....?

Would be like rebuilding / repairing some hulls and then being disqualified...oh that is another discussion for that class...I feel for those people...

But it is ok to change the sail plan...but not the hull?

Really is moot though for us.

Mixed fleet sailing is always a crap shoot with handicaps.

So many variables depending on the conditions on the day.

Just have to sail and enjoy the sailing.


Drew....TOAST..1816....furr_ball..1635
Re: Handicapping Clarification (Nacra 5.8) [Re: drew_mac] #282388
04/10/16 08:15 PM
04/10/16 08:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline
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Tim_Mozzie  Offline
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Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Originally Posted by drew_mac

Mixed fleet sailing is always a crap shoot with handicaps.

So many variables depending on the conditions on the day.

Just have to sail and enjoy the sailing.


Exactly - spot-on Drew.

I would add that, from what I've seen the square top sail is adopted more for it's look than it's performance. Unless the boat is designed for it, the square top can be hell downwind on a windy day.


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
Karma Cat
Re: Handicapping Clarification (Nacra 5.8) [Re: fast energy] #282389
04/11/16 01:55 AM
04/11/16 01:55 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
Matt_Stone Offline
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Matt_Stone  Offline
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i have heard from others that the square top is more forgiving sail than the pin head. Controls the boat more. Its not that much faster.

Re: Handicapping Clarification (Nacra 5.8) [Re: fast energy] #282453
04/14/16 08:54 PM
04/14/16 08:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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Dazz  Offline
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Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Jeff, would you mind taking a photo of your pin head and square top laid over the top of each other? I would be very surprised if the square top is not considerably bigger.

here is a photo of the nacra 5.0 sail, you can clearly see it is the same luff and foot length. the only real noticeable change is the addition or more sail cloth in the head of the sail.

Apparently the 5.0 is significantly more powered up and is much faster off the breeze.


Attached Files
nacra 5.0.jpg (158 downloads)

C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Handicapping Clarification (Nacra 5.8) [Re: fast energy] #282454
04/15/16 07:56 AM
04/15/16 07:56 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,348
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Online content
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JeffS  Online Content
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Posts: 1,348
Kingston SE South Australia
New 5.8 sail is exactly the same area, it is very different to sail with, for instance get your head around pulling the downhaul and main on hard to get the square top to lay off, then in a puff if you let the main off a bit the square top stands up again powering you up. It may be faster but wasn't faster for me on the day, I finished where I would have in the field before, anyone gauging it's performance should also recognise that they are racing against a brand new main sail and probably a brand new jib which always adds to the performance, I will post some sail pics soon. As for Drew Macs comments about little hull alterations I'm always up for a robust discussion and happy to have one here, I'll tackle that one in this thread soon


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Cant have two Ram Raiders at the same time so not named yet
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Arrow 1576

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