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by CapriSun. 11/12/20 09:41 AM
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Rule question #283572
10/01/16 04:43 PM
10/01/16 04:43 PM
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2 boats finishing downwind. One boat on starboard, other on port. Starboard boat is approaching finish line at committee boat side. Port boat coming in on collision course with starboard boat. Port boat hails for room. Starboard boats says "w...t...f" and finishes without changing course. Port boat says "w...t...f? we were entitled to room because there was overlap." There was never any danger of someone hitting the committee boat.
Who is correct?
Never came across this issue before since I don't really consider a finish line as a mark... but then again... misunderstood so many things today it is almost as if I have never raced before!

Last edited by PTP; 10/01/16 04:44 PM.
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Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283574
10/01/16 05:37 PM
10/01/16 05:37 PM
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The marks of the finish line are marks of the course and are handled exactly the same as the marks of a downwind gate. When the first boat reaches the three boat length circle, if an overlap exists, the inside boat is entitled to mark room. If no overlap or if the interaction occurs outside of the three boat circle, then port/starboard or clear ahead/astern rules continue to apply.

sm

Re: Rule question [Re: srm] #283575
10/01/16 06:10 PM
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Port boat reached 3 boat length circle first but I am having a hard time figuring out if there was overlap. The port boat was ahead of a line drawn through stb boats transom so I guess there was inside overlap

Last edited by PTP; 10/01/16 06:13 PM.
Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283576
10/01/16 07:15 PM
10/01/16 07:15 PM
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Quite honestly, I'm having trouble visualizing the scenario because typically with a port/starboard situation at the left gate mark (facing down wind) or the committe boat end of the finish line, the starboard boat would be inside and the port boat would be outside. So the boat on starboard tack would have right of way regardless of whether or not there is an overlap (i.e. if no overlap, they are on starboard, if there is an overlap, they are inside).

sm

Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283578
10/02/16 06:04 AM
10/02/16 06:04 AM
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I think this captures the essence of the issue. Both boats were finishing downwind in light air on opposite gybes. Blue boat had to alter course to avoid collision and protested yellow.

[Linked Image]


Jeff R

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Re: Rule question [Re: rehmbo] #283579
10/02/16 09:22 AM
10/02/16 09:22 AM
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Short answer:
Yellow broke rule 18.2(b).

Long answer:
Although there are times that rule 18 does not apply, such as when approaching the starting line to start and between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward (see the preamble to Section C and rule 18.1 for a complete list), a downwind finish is NOT one of them. Rule 18 DOES apply at gybe, leeward, and downwind finish marks.

The RC Boat is a mark (see the definition of mark). The two boats were overlapped (see the definition of Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap) when the first one reached the zone. The outside boat (yellow, on starboard tack) was required to give the inside boat (blue, on port tack) mark-room per rule 18.2(b). Mark-room (see the definition of mark-room) consists of "room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it and room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course". Yellow did not give Blue that room, and therefore broke rule 18.2(b).

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283581
10/02/16 09:52 AM
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SM hits on an important subtlety here. PTP left out an important detail: On which side of the line did this occur?

If the RC boat in question was the port end of the line (as shown in the diagram), I agree with all above.

If the RC boat in question was the starboard end of the line, then port would not be inside and would have neither mark room not right of way.

Either way, I agree with all above that this is exactly the same as a leeward gate.

Mike

Re: Rule question [Re: brucat] #283585
10/03/16 06:58 AM
10/03/16 06:58 AM
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Another subtlety is that port is only allowed the mark room to which she is entitled - which means that she must jibe at the committee boat. Mark room in this context does not include room to cross the starboard boat.

Re: Rule question [Re: mbounds] #283586
10/03/16 08:05 AM
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I thought this would be just a port starboard scenario. It isn't port's proper course to round the committee boat as per the drawing - right? If they both were on Starboard and overlapped, leeward couldn't use the boat as a pick and would have to give room but I can't see how this is any different than if they met in the middle of the line - no?

Hmmm...I'm going to have to read up. I guess blue would have plenty of gybe room in the middle of the line and the presence of the end of the line (the boat) changes that.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283587
10/03/16 08:09 AM
10/03/16 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by PTP
Port boat reached 3 boat length circle first but I am having a hard time figuring out if there was overlap. The port boat was ahead of a line drawn through stb boats transom so I guess there was inside overlap


Overlap downwind on boats on opposite gybes with typical multihull sailing angles is easy - If you are close enough for overlap to matter, there is going to be overlap. The line off your stern goes through about half the course.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rule question [Re: mbounds] #283588
10/03/16 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Another subtlety is that port is only allowed the mark room to which she is entitled - which means that she must jibe at the committee boat. Mark room in this context does not include room to cross the starboard boat.


I see nothing in the definition to require this gybe, as a finish mark isn't a rounding mark.

It does seem like the logical way to avoid a collision.

Is there a case to support this interpretation?

Mike

Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283589
10/03/16 10:00 AM
10/03/16 10:00 AM
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PTP and I were on the yellow boat in question. Clearly the proper thing to do at that point was to bear away just enough to give mark room. Probably would have still beat them.

It was a good lesson. I'm still very much a student of the sport.

Mike - I think that once yellow had provided mark room then blue boat has a choice to gybe or take yellow's stern. Either way yellow fulfilled its obligation and no penalty.

Last edited by rehmbo; 10/03/16 10:03 AM.

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Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283590
10/03/16 10:25 AM
10/03/16 10:25 AM
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My view is that port gets mark room, which is different than ROW. I agree with Matt that port can't cross starboard, and only gets enough room to sail to the mark, but port could satisfy this at a finish line by sailing DDW without gybing. Probably makes more sense on slower boats.

Yeah, so not exactly like a gate...

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 10/03/16 10:29 AM.
Re: Rule question [Re: brucat] #283591
10/03/16 12:38 PM
10/03/16 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
Is there a case to support this interpretation?


WS Case 118 - "In the definition Mark-Room, the phrase ‘room to sail to the mark’ means space to sail promptly in a seamanlike way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark."

While you could argue that P isn't technically required to jibe, she is the give way boat, even though she is entitled to mark room. If P merely bears away to dead downwind (forcing S ti also sail dead downwind) she's still on port tack and subject to rules 10, 14 and 18.2(b) until she clears the finishing line and marks (definition of finish). The best way to avoid a possible rules infringement is to jibe.

Re: Rule question [Re: mbounds] #283592
10/03/16 03:34 PM
10/03/16 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by brucat
Is there a case to support this interpretation?


WS Case 118 - "In the definition Mark-Room, the phrase ‘room to sail to the mark’ means space to sail promptly in a seamanlike way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark."

While you could argue that P isn't technically required to jibe, she is the give way boat, even though she is entitled to mark room. If P merely bears away to dead downwind (forcing S ti also sail dead downwind) she's still on port tack and subject to rules 10, 14 and 18.2(b) until she clears the finishing line and marks (definition of finish). The best way to avoid a possible rules infringement is to jibe.


Ahh...OK. You are saying that once she (blue) gybes, they're both on starboard and now blue is entitled to room on that end of the finish mark? I get that - that's pretty straight forward in that you can't use the finish mark as a "pick". However, I think that I understood that blue was asking for room to gybe around the committee boat and, in essence, yellow would have had to yield to blue while she was still on port and finishing.

Suppose, however, that if they were both in the middle of the line, blue (p) would have to avoid yellow (s) plain and simple - blue would either have to gybe or take yellow's stern to avoid her. Just because they are near the end of the line, nothing says that blue has to round the committee boat...blue's proper course is to cross the line - not round the end of the line. Why would blue be given special circumstances just because of where they are on the finish line - why wouldn't it be the same as if they were meeting in the middle of the line?



Jake Kohl
Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283593
10/03/16 04:05 PM
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It doesn't matter whether it's a gate or a finish line, the rules regarding mark room are the same in both cases.

Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.

It would be the same scenario if you had a race committe that set up an excessively wide gate. In the three boat length zone(s) rule 18 apllies. In the area between the marks (but outside of the zones), the standard rules regarding when boats meet apply.

Using the committe boat or the pin end of the line to an inside boat's advantage is just part of the tactics of racing.

sm

Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283594
10/03/16 04:14 PM
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Thanks Matt, that's what I thought. The practical thing for port to do is gybe, but I doubt anyone would protest this after a finish. Most sailors think once you've touched the line, you're done, and are happy just to move on to the next race. Seems like only ROs and judges (and probably match racers) appreciate the full rule and definition.

Jake, it's because it's a mark, covered by RRS 18. Most likely, it's to add fairness and open options. Otherwise, everyone would approach on starboard, cutting out part of the racecourse.

Mike

Re: Rule question [Re: brucat] #283595
10/03/16 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
Most likely, it's to add fairness and open options. Otherwise, everyone would approach on starboard, cutting out part of the racecourse.


And this finally gives me a logical answer to the "why" question. Have to say this rule is a pretty obtuse one for the unwashed masses (aka me)

That being said, I have a much firmer understanding of it now. Thanks guys!


Jeff R

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Re: Rule question [Re: brucat] #283597
10/03/16 05:32 PM
10/03/16 05:32 PM
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Thanks for the clarification. I see it now. For some reason I was looking at multihull angles all different but it's really not. I've yielded room to port on the same situation on keelboats and never given it a second thought.

Lesson for starboard, if you want to force port/starboard rights at the finish line, cross the finish line a couple of boat lengths away from the end of the line.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283598
10/03/16 06:54 PM
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You're welcome. One of the fringe benefits of attending US Sailing meetings and seminars, and volunteering for enough of the right regattas is the chance to meet the rules guys and ask questions like this. Once you get a feel for what they're trying to accomplish, it helps a lot.

Of course, it's an international effort, and doesn't always make perfect (or obvious) sense. Some of the submissions during the change cycle can make your head spin. It's usually the unintended consequences that cause the problems.

Mike

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