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Re: Rule question [Re: Jake] #283601
10/04/16 01:53 PM
10/04/16 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Lesson for starboard, if you want to force port/starboard rights at the finish line, cross the finish line a couple of boat lengths away from the end of the line.


That assumes that you would somehow be able to draw the port tack boat away from the pin end of the line (or boat end of the line in the above case). If I'm approaching the line on Port on a collision course with a boat on Starboard and I know I have inside rights at the pin, there's no way you would be able to draw me away from the pin. Like I said, a Port tack boat taking advantage of mark room at the pin is one of the tactics of racing.

sm

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Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283603
10/04/16 04:51 PM
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If a port boat beats a starboard boat across the line, it's almost always because the port boat was in the lead before approaching the line. The only way to preserve that in a tight race is to finish at the pin.

Mike

Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283607
10/05/16 10:32 AM
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Believe it or not, the purpose of rule 18 is to make mark roundings simpler. If you think rule 18 is complicated, try to imagine a gybe or leeward mark rounding without it. As boats are bearing away, gybing, and rounding up, overlaps are constantly being broken, new overlaps are established, and boats are changing tack. Try to figure out the applications of rules 10, 11, 12, 15, and 16 in real time while all that changes -- especially if there are multiple boats involved -- while still performing all the necessary acts of seamanship needed to round the mark. It can't be done.

Now, enter rule 18.2(b). All you have to do is look at the relationship between boats at the moment the first one enters the 3-boat-length-zone. If the boats are overlapped, then the outside boat must thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If they are not overlapped, then the astern boat must thereafter give the ahead boat mark-room. That obligation holds even if the boat's right-of-way or overlap relationship changes as they maneuver.

Back to the scenario at hand, where a port-tack boat is overlapped inside of a starboard-tack boat at a downwind finish mark, rule 18.2(b) applies. The outside boat (S) must give the inside boat (P) mark-room. If that means that both boats must turn dead-downwind to avoid each other and the mark, then that's what both boats must do. Forget about proper course, as that term has nothing to do with rule 18.2. Don't get hung up on "rights", as both boats have obligations. P must keep clear of S, and S must give P mark-room.

I hope that helps,
Eric Rasmussen
US Sailing Judge

Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283609
10/05/16 11:02 AM
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I thought the ACWS rule was the simplest: first one to enter the zone is ROW until after rounding (or something to that effect), applied at both windward and leeward marks. What's easier than that?

Of course, they probably had sensors to help sort it out.

Mike

Re: Rule question [Re: Isotope235] #283610
10/05/16 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Isotope235
Don't get hung up on "rights", as both boats have obligations. P must keep clear of S, and S must give P mark-room.


How can P be required to keep clear of S AND S be required to give P mark-room? If you look at the definitions, those appear (to me) to be mutually exclusive requirements.

Keep Clear: A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action.

Mark Room: Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and
(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course

Room: The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

Thus, for P to KEEP CLEAR of S, then it means that S has to be able to sail her course without needing to take action to avoid P. This of course is not possible if at the same time S must maneuver to give P mark room.

sm

Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283611
10/05/16 01:32 PM
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Thanks Eric. Would have loved to have you in the room in NJ...may ping you on a separate topic.


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Re: Rule question [Re: srm] #283612
10/05/16 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by srm
How can P be required to keep clear of S AND S be required to give P mark-room? If you look at the definitions, those appear (to me) to be mutually exclusive requirements.

The two are not mutually exclusive. S must give P enough room at the mark so that P can sail the course without S having to take avoiding action. If S does not give P mark-room, and as a result S must act to avoid P, then S breaks rule 18.2(b) and P breaks rule 10. It is entirely possible for both boats to break a rule. In this instance, however, provided P is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled, she is exonerated under rule 21 for breaking rule 10 or 31.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Rule question [Re: Jake] #283613
10/06/16 06:14 AM
10/06/16 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake


FIFY

Lesson for starboard, if you want to force port/starboard rights at the finish line, cross the finish line a couple of boat AT LEAST 3 BOAT LENGTHS away from the end of the line.



Last edited by tback; 10/06/16 02:45 PM.

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Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283615
10/06/16 02:23 PM
10/06/16 02:23 PM
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I'm always amazed at how many sailors do not think about the downwind finish being exactly like a gate. Then again, I guess many do not understand the rules at the gate that well either. It all makes sense and is intended to keep us all from crashing. Keep this in mind in big fleets with lots of overlapped boats. Even on starboard, you may have to give room to more than 1 boat at the finish.


Mike, I distinctly remember you sitting in the pin boat at the finish in Galveston at the Hobie 16 NA's when Jason Hess tried to assert his Starboard rights on me at the pin end when I was finishing on port. I'm pretty sure he knew the rule but was hoping I didn't. He gave me room, I jibed at the pin and we both finished cleanly.

Last edited by graybon; 10/06/16 02:24 PM.
Re: Rule question [Re: graybon] #283616
10/06/16 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by graybon

Mike, I distinctly remember you sitting in the pin boat at the finish in Galveston at the Hobie 16 NA's when Jason Hess tried to assert his Starboard rights on me at the pin end when I was finishing on port. I'm pretty sure he knew the rule but was hoping I didn't. He gave me room, I jibed at the pin and we both finished cleanly.


it should be against the rules to knowingly fake that you don't know them!

Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283617
10/06/16 08:36 PM
10/06/16 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by PTP
Originally Posted by graybon
... tried to assert his Starboard rights on me at the pin end when I was finishing on port. I'm pretty sure he knew the rule but was hoping I didn't.

it should be against the rules to knowingly fake that you don't know them!

Not knowing the rules does not excuse one from breaking them. Neither does pretending not to know the rules.

Trying to intimidate another boat (whos crew may not know the rules) into giving up right-of-way or room to which she is entitled is against the rules. It is a breach of rule 2 "Fair Sailing".

Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283619
10/07/16 06:54 AM
10/07/16 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by PTP
Originally Posted by graybon

Mike, I distinctly remember you sitting in the pin boat at the finish in Galveston at the Hobie 16 NA's when Jason Hess tried to assert his Starboard rights on me at the pin end when I was finishing on port. I'm pretty sure he knew the rule but was hoping I didn't. He gave me room, I jibed at the pin and we both finished cleanly.


it should be against the rules to knowingly fake that you don't know them!


It is - most definitely...that would be a rule 2 violation. The problem is, though, the onus would be on you to prove that the other guy wasn't an idiot. grin

I was doing tactics/trimming on a boat with a talented, but somewhat inexperienced owner/helm, not too long ago where we had a finishing issue. We were windward sailing upwind to the starboard end of the finish line with a boat, pretty even and maybe slightly ahead, close and overlapped to leeward. Neither one of us were laying the starboard end of the finish line and both of us had to tack back to port in order to finish. The lawyer helming the other boat, an experienced sailor who had a fairly unethical reputation, started screaming for room to tack while blurting something about overlap and zone, etc. I instructed our boat to hold course and tack on my call. My skipper flinched and tacked - we probably gave up that finish position at that moment but our crew wasn't ready for the tack and we got smoked to the line. The subsequent sheepish grin from the skipper of that other boat really got under my skin. I knew he knew that I knew he knew. smirk


Jake Kohl
Re: Rule question [Re: PTP] #283620
10/07/16 07:46 AM
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Greg, I do remember, that and plenty of other incidents at that regatta which made me scratch my head and say "Really???" If you recall, I was also on the PC, and we had a few really late nights. Rules 2 and 69 were discussed a few times, which thankfully is pretty rare, but never pleasant.

I've seen all sorts of head games (and worse) over the years, both as a racer and as an official. It's almost always impossible to prove intent, and sometimes people just deny it all ever happened once they're in the room and realize the severity of the situation.

You'd think that since Rule 18 has been around for about 20 years, and we've used gates for about that long, people would stop using the excuse that they don't see port as being overlapped in that situation. We either need to dramatically improve our training, or maybe implement requirements to pass a basic test before entering a race?

My biggest pet peeves are bumper boats (pileups at the start line or gate, with no turns or protests, usually more of a problem with Optis), or the blatant kamazazi port boat crossing through a starboard-tack parade, doing a penalty turn, and still coming out 10 boats ahead: a clear violation of the Basic Principles and specifically 44.1(b).

Back to the point about dealing with the wrong-rule-yelling bullies: typically, holding your ground and not backing down on the water will give them the clue that you're not a pushover, and they'll leave you alone after that. Otherwise, protest, protest, protest.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 10/07/16 08:00 AM.
Re: Rule question [Re: Jake] #283621
10/07/16 01:06 PM
10/07/16 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake


It is - most definitely...that would be a rule 2 violation. The problem is, though, the onus would be on you to prove that the other guy wasn't an idiot. grin

I was doing tactics/trimming on a boat with a talented, but somewhat inexperienced owner/helm, not too long ago where we had a finishing issue. We were windward sailing upwind to the starboard end of the finish line with a boat, pretty even and maybe slightly ahead, close and overlapped to leeward. Neither one of us were laying the starboard end of the finish line and both of us had to tack back to port starboard in order to finish. The lawyer helming the other boat, an experienced sailor who had a fairly unethical reputation, started screaming for room to tack while blurting something about overlap and zone, etc. I instructed our boat to hold course and tack on my call. My skipper flinched and tacked - we probably gave up that finish position at that moment but our crew wasn't ready for the tack and we got smoked to the line. The subsequent sheepish grin from the skipper of that other boat really got under my skin. I knew he knew that I knew he knew. smirk


sorry..had to fix that typo.


Jake Kohl
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