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Racing Rules: BFD Redress #275581
09/24/14 06:54 AM
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brucat Offline OP
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Here's a good one for training for major international events:

Let's discuss black flag starts and redress. Under what conditions might a boat be granted redress after being identified as OCS under a black flag start? What are the obligations of that boat in terms of sailing the race and the hearing later? Please list applicable rules and cases in your response.

Mike

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Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: brucat] #275590
09/25/14 09:44 AM
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Mike,

I can't think of a scenario except perhaps a situation where your boat was fouled somehow and pushed you OCS (to avoid collision or something).

Perhaps avoiding a potential port-tack starter near the pin and you headed up to avoid contact, and went OCS?

Would having your protest flag flying at the time of the OCS help the later decision?


Jay

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: waterbug_wpb] #275597
09/25/14 06:34 PM
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Thanks for getting this started Jay. Here are some answers:


Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I can't think of a scenario except perhaps a situation where your boat was fouled somehow and pushed you OCS (to avoid collision or something).

Nope. Check RRS 62.1. The only way you can get redress for anything caused by another boat is if there is injury or damage, or if they are penalized under RRS 2 (sportsmanship) or a penalty or warning under RRS 69 (gross misconduct). Weird as it sounds, if you get rammed from behind and pushed over the line, you get no redress unless there's damage, injury, or if you can prove it was intentional (good luck with that, BTW). Incidentally, this is the same for any flavor of OCS.


Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Perhaps avoiding a potential port-tack starter near the pin and you headed up to avoid contact, and went OCS

Nope, see above.


Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Would having your protest flag flying at the time of the OCS help the later decision?

No flag needed for requesting redress per RRS 62.2.


Mike

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: brucat] #275598
09/25/14 07:49 PM
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Mike,

In a junior regatta this summer an opti sailor sailed ocs to another competitor who was also OCS and crying to check on the kid... Of course the flag was up..
PRO dsq'd him.
He filed for redress and the sole judge awarded redress with average points.
PRO made the case for the sportsmanship award for the JO's.

Seems like the right thing to do all around... Not sure it goes by the book per your interpretation. Is there some wiggle room here.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: brucat] #275602
09/25/14 09:24 PM
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The conditions for redress (per RRS 62.1) are that a boat's score in a race or series has been, or may be, through no fault of her own, made significantly worse by:
  1. an improper action of race committee...,
  2. injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2...,
  3. giving help... in compliance with rule 1.1, or
  4. an action of a boat, or member of her crew that resulted in a penalty under rule 2, or ... rule 69.2(c).
Therefore (working backwards) in the context of a black flag being properly displayed:

d. If a boat is forced into the triangle by the unsportsmanlike action of another boat (such as getting deliberately rammed from behind and pushed over the line), and the other boat is penalized under RRS 2 - Fair Sailing, then she may be entitled to redress. She may also be exonerated under RRS 64.1(a).

c. If a boat enters the triangle to render assistance to a person or vessel in danger, then she breaks RRS 30.3 and is disqualified, but would be entitled to redress. See ISAF Case 20.

b. If a boat is forced into the triangle by injury or damage caused by another boat breaking a rule, then she may be entitled to redress, but such a situation is difficult to envision. Note that a boat is not entitled to redress simply because another boat breaks a rule to her disadvantage. That is just her bad luck. If, for example a starboard-tack boat is forced across the line to avoid contact with a port-tack boat, she is not entitled to redress. She might be exonerated under RRS 64.1(a), but that would require a protest, not a redress request. Even then, however, she must still restart. ISAF Case 28 speaks to this obligation.

a. That brings us to improper actions of Race Committee (et. al.), which I think was the intent of the original question. There are a few errors Race committee can make:
  1. If the race is postponed or abandoned before the starting signal (in which a boat was in the triangle) and subsequently restarted, and RC scores the boat BFD, then protest committee may grant redress (probably her finishing position).
  2. If a boat believes RC misidentified her (that is, she was not in the triangle) then she may request redress. Note however, that if RC posts the boat's sail number after a general recall or abandonment (after the starting signal) before restarting, she may not sail but may still request redress.
  3. If RC recalls/abandons a race and restarts, but does not post a boat's sail number, and she sails (despite having been recorded in the triangle) and RC scores her DNE, that is redressable, but only to the extent of scoring her BFD instead.
ISAF Case 96 is the most directly relevant case to this matter. Case 65 is applicable, but not relevant to redress. US Sailing Appeal 96 isn't directly applicable, but if you substitute "black flag" for "z flag", the outcome is the same. ISAF Case 111 is very similar.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: brucat] #275607
09/26/14 11:49 AM
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See todays front page story on Sailing Anarchy. The J24's are a tough fleet too.

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: jkkartz1] #275610
09/26/14 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jkkartz1
See todays front page story on Sailing Anarchy. The J24's are a tough fleet too.

As I understand what happened with the J24 BFD redress requests, I believe the International Jury got things right in the end. I'm not a fan of the black flag, as it can lead to these sorts of problems. Take for example ISAF Q&A C001 (a.k.a. 2014-015). It describes a situation where a boat, despite doing nothing wrong, winds up disqualified -- with no possibility of redress (beyond DNS). I don't always agree with the ISAF Q&A writeups, but in this case I reach the same conclusions.

Regards,
Eric

Attached Files
ISAF_QA_C001.pdf (19 downloads)
ISAF Q&A C001 (2014-015)
Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: brucat] #275620
09/27/14 03:14 PM
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Mark, I agree with the decision under your example, a sane jury would probably let that go under rendering assistance per 62.1(c).

Very educational stuff in the cases mentioned. If you can deal with the negativity, SA has a thread going with pics of the redress decisions posted at the regatta. Also very educational.

I was fortunate enough to only be on a start boat on the practice day, and we couldn't get that to anchor out there at all (swapped it out to be the gate boat). The rest of the week I was on the weather mark (with tons of rode). I got some grief from some of the BIMBOs, but none of those marks moved.

Mike

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: brucat] #286578
03/21/17 09:49 AM
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World Sailing has a new case (Case 140), which backs up a lot of info in this old thread.

What I find to be tough is that, if you're forced over the line (with all the caveats mentioned), you can't get average points. The onus is fully on you to know you were over the line and to restart (there won't be even an X-flag to help you), and the best score you can get is where you finished after restarting and successfully filing for redress.

Quote

CASE 140
Rule 30.3, Starting Penalties: U Flag Rule
Rule 30.4, Starting Penalties: Black Flag Rule
Rule 62.1, Redress
Rule 64.1(b), Decisions: Penalties and Exoneration
How the rules apply when a boat is compelled to cross the starting line by another boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2.


Facts for Question 1
A race is started under rule 30.3, U Flag Rule, or 30.4, Black Flag Rule. Twenty seconds before the starting signal there is an incident between boats A and B. The race committee identifies part of A on the course side. A does not return to the pre-start side of the starting line, but continues sailing the course and finishes. The race committee scores her UFD or BFD, as appropriate.

A lodges a valid protest against B. The protest committee disqualifies B for breaking a rule of Part 2. The committee finds that B, as a consequence of breaking a rule, has compelled A to break rule 30.3 or 30.4. It also finds that there was no injury or physical damage, and that B did not break rule 2, Fair Sailing.

Question 1
May the protest committee exonerate A for her breach of rule 30.3 or 30.4, and score her in her finishing position, even though A has never started according to the definition Start?

Answer 1
No. A has broken rule 30.3 or 30.4, but she has also broken rule 28.1 by failing to start (see the definition Start). B’s breach compelled A to break rule 30.3 or 30.4. However, it did not prevent A from sailing back to the pre-start side of the starting line and starting correctly. The protest committee may exonerate A under rule 64.1(a) for her breach of rule 30.3 or 30.4, and if so, the race committee shall score her DNS under rule A5.

Had A returned to the pre-start side of the starting line, started correctly, sailed the course and finished, the protest committee could have exonerated her for the breach of rule 30.3 or 30.4 and scored her in her finishing position.


Facts for Question 2
The race is started under rule 30.4, Black Flag Rule. The facts are the same as for Question 1, but this time there is a general recall. A’s sail number is properly displayed as required by rule 30.4. Before the restart, A informs the race committee that she intends to protest B for breaking a rule of Part 2 in the recalled start. A starts, sails the course and finishes the restarted race. The race committee scores her DNE. A lodges a protest against B for the breach in the initial start and requests redress. In her request she claims that the race committee acted improperly when it scored her DNE.

Question 2
If the protest committee decides that B broke a Part 2 rule and, when she did so, compelled A to break rule 30.4, may the committee give A redress by scoring her in her finishing position in the restarted race?

Answer 2
No. A initially broke the first sentence of rule 30.4 and was identified on the course side of the starting line. Then her sail number was properly displayed according to rule 30.4. Because the race committee displayed A’s sail number after a general recall, the penultimate sentence of rule 30.4 prohibited A from sailing in the restarted race. By starting in the restarted race, she breaks the penultimate sentence of rule 30.4. The race committee does not make a mistake when it scores her DNE. A is not entitled to redress because the race committee does not act improperly.


Facts for Question 3
The facts are the same as for Question 2 but this time A does not sail in the restarted race. When she comes ashore, she protests B for the incident in the initial start. The protest committee decides B broke a rule of Part 2 for which she cannot be penalized (see rule 36).

Question 3
If the protest committee decides that B broke a Part 2 rule and, when she did so, compelled A to break rule 30.4, may the protest committee change A’s BFD score?

Answer 3
Yes, the protest committee will exonerate A for breaking rule 30.4 and
will correct her score from BFD to DNS in the restarted race. However,
she is not entitled to redress because the race committee did not act improperly.



Mike

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: brucat] #286579
03/21/17 10:01 AM
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when OCS, does it matter if you just dip back behind the line or do you have to sail all the way to the pin/boat and round?

Obviously on a crowded start you may have limited options, but I often wonder what's acceptable.


Jay

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: waterbug_wpb] #286580
03/21/17 12:15 PM
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Dipping is allowed unless the I-flag is flying, then you need to go around (or cross an extension, which is a good technicality to know, but would rarely be useful).

The I-flag wouldn't be flying with U or black. It would only be alone or with the Z-flag.

Mike

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: brucat] #286596
03/22/17 12:41 PM
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Does anyone else have questions on these? Here are some thoughts that I have after reading these a few more times:

Q1: Lesson is, if you think you're over and intend to file a protest and seek redress, you need to first restart. My only question is, can the jury give you something better than your finish position after you've restarted? I know that juries loathe making decisions that could change who wins a regatta, but there are certainly some potential situations where you may finish worse than your average, and your average could be enough to change the trophies. Seems unfair to be forced to stick with a lower score once a jury agrees you're entitled to redress.

Q2: Very straightforward, don't try to start in a restart if you're black flagged and your number is posted.

Q3: I don't like this at all. You get forced over the line, you follow the rules and don't restart, the jury agrees you're entitled to exoneration, but the best they can give you is DNS???

I guess it's like protesting a boat for a mid-race foul. Unless you're damaged or injured, you can DSQ the other boat, be exonerated for breaking a rule, but can't get your score adjusted for any places you lost in the process. While I can agree with that for a mid-race situation (it's very hard to prove how many places you lost during a race), surely average points is better than DNS for the situation in Q3?

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 03/23/17 12:51 PM.
Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: brucat] #286598
03/23/17 01:23 AM
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Great discussion! Usually it's not good to post on an old topic because it's confusing. This was a great exception Mike.

Read the whole thread and it brought me right back to my monohull racing days pre-1990 when complete understanding of the RRS meant the difference in winning and losing on a J-24 or San Juan 24.

After all when you are moving at 5-7 mph you have a lot more time to think about the rules.

Since I'm a technical geek at heart I kind of miss these discussions/arguments.


😀

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: brucat] #286602
03/23/17 07:40 AM
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I'm surprised assigning a redress of an average score isn't an option if the boat that was OCS is completely exonerated of all fault for being OCS. I get that the boat can't sail if OCS in a black flag situation - the RC isn't deciding a protest hearing live on the water.

I think this is more of a situation where the rules simply boxed in this result and the specific result may have been somewhat unintended.

Last edited by Jake; 03/23/17 07:45 AM.

Jake Kohl
Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: Jake] #286603
03/23/17 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
I'm surprised assigning a redress of an average score isn't an option if the boat that was OCS is completely exonerated of all fault for being OCS.

In this type of situation, there are three requirements for a boat to receive redress:
1) A boat's score must be made significantly worse
2) through no fault of her own
3) by an improper action or omission of race committee (or a few other conditions detailed previously).

In Case 140, Q3, there is not doubt that the boat's score was made significantly worse through no fault of her own, but race committee did not make an improper action or omission. RC did nothing wrong, so the boat is not entitled to redress. Exoneration yes -- redress no.

Remember, you don't get redress just because a boat fouls you -- even if it makes your score significantly worse. Is that fair? No, but it is part of the game.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: Isotope235] #286607
03/23/17 09:51 AM
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I do enjoy the rules discussions, as well as the references to the IJ case studies (they usually have some graphical representations which help immensely)

Is there somewhere to check (or be notified) when new cases/opinons are rendered?


Jay

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: waterbug_wpb] #286609
03/23/17 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I do enjoy the rules discussions, as well as the references to the IJ case studies (they usually have some graphical representations which help immensely)

Is there somewhere to check (or be notified) when new cases/opinons are rendered?


The case book is free, and you can find it on sailing.org (World Sailing, formerly ISAF official site).

Racingrulesofsailing.org is another great resource. You have to sign up for this, but they email you with updates.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: Isotope235] #286610
03/23/17 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by Jake
I'm surprised assigning a redress of an average score isn't an option if the boat that was OCS is completely exonerated of all fault for being OCS.

In this type of situation, there are three requirements for a boat to receive redress:
1) A boat's score must be made significantly worse
2) through no fault of her own
3) by an improper action or omission of race committee (or a few other conditions detailed previously).

In Case 140, Q3, there is not doubt that the boat's score was made significantly worse through no fault of her own, but race committee did not make an improper action or omission. RC did nothing wrong, so the boat is not entitled to redress. Exoneration yes -- redress no.

Remember, you don't get redress just because a boat fouls you -- even if it makes your score significantly worse. Is that fair? No, but it is part of the game.

Regards,
Eric


Thanks Eric. I agree that this is where the rules take you (this is consistent throughout the thread), but I'd like to think there's a better way to resolve this. Obviously, that would require a rule change.

Mike

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: brucat] #286612
03/23/17 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
I agree that this is where the rules take you (this is consistent throughout the thread), but I'd like to think there's a better way to resolve this. Obviously, that would require a rule change.

The Sailing Instructions may delete the last two sentences of rule 30.4, which would fix the specific inequity of the black flag. SI's could even change rule 62.1 to allow redress for other rule infractions, but that could open a floodgate of redress requests.

I doubt you'll see either change in the rulebook though.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Racing Rules: BFD Redress [Re: Isotope235] #286613
03/23/17 02:51 PM
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I wouldn't recommend using SIs to fix this. Nothing good could come from that!

Mike


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