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Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: brucat] #286891
05/29/17 11:35 AM
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Cammas was SMOKING across that finish line! I'm surprised Ainsle kept it within a minute at the end, certainly looked slower than that.

SWE and NZL, this ought to be interesting!

Mike

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: brucat] #286892
05/29/17 11:40 AM
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Wow, Artemis just completely screwed themselves. Over early at the start after clearly winning it. NZL was completely screwed until SWE gave it away. Wow...

Mike

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: brucat] #286893
05/29/17 11:48 AM
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Wow, what an awesome race. NZL nearly crossed SWE at the weather mark, but ducked and split. Unbelievable pass on the run, followed by a split at the leeward gate, this is anyone's race to lose!

Mike

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: brucat] #286894
05/29/17 11:53 AM
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Basically tied going into the final run, this is NUTS!!!!!

Mike

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: brucat] #286895
05/29/17 11:58 AM
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LOTS of drama at the last gate. SWE smoked in on STBD, looked like they had it won, but got penalized for a P/S incident at the mark! NZL wins it!

I don't know if redress is an option, it certainly looked clean. Burling is saying that they needed more room, and had to make a crash gybe at 40 knots.

NZL really had no chance to win, coming in on PORT, had to gybe to get around for the reaching leg to finish. SWE just needed to go wide and give NZL room.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 05/29/17 12:03 PM.
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: brucat] #286896
05/29/17 12:32 PM
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Other than the start, I missed the last race. Dalton had an awesome start (made it look too easy), but how did he beat Cammas by over two and a half minutes???

Mike

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: brucat] #286897
05/29/17 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
NZL really had no chance to win, coming in on PORT, had to gybe to get around for the reaching leg to finish. SWE just needed to go wide and give NZL room.

No, coming into the final rounding mark NZ was on starboard tack, and SWE was on port. They were nearly even but NZ needed to gybe to round the mark.

It wasn't a matter of enough room - simply a starboard/port situation. Apparently, the umpires felt that if NZ had not crash-gybed (or rounded up), she would have hit SWE.

I thought that SWE needed to go a bit further before their last gybe, so they'd have room to take NZ's transom at the mark and roll NZ with speed. They didn't, and lost the protest.

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: brucat] #286898
05/29/17 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
Other than the start, I missed the last race. Dalton had an awesome start (made it look too easy), but how did he beat Cammas by over two and a half minutes???

Dean Barker (JP) had a great start at the windward end and simply blew by FR. Cammas didn't even try to shut Barker out. JP finished so far ahead by flying for 97.5% of the race. Cammas (FR) splashed a lot.

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Isotope235] #286899
05/29/17 01:15 PM
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Here's the whole downwind gate sequence, looks to me like ETNZ tried to hunt Artemis but when they realized they where clear ahead they tried the protest.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Isotope235] #286900
05/29/17 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by brucat
NZL really had no chance to win, coming in on PORT, had to gybe to get around for the reaching leg to finish. SWE just needed to go wide and give NZL room.

No, coming into the final rounding mark NZ was on starboard tack, and SWE was on port. They were nearly even but NZ needed to gybe to round the mark.

It wasn't a matter of enough room - simply a starboard/port situation. Had NZ not crash-gybed (or rounded up), they would have hit SWE.

SWE needed to go a bit further before their last gybe, so they'd have room to take NZ's transom at the mark and roll NZ with speed. They didn't, and lost the protest.


Wow, I really typed that wrong. Thanks for correcting that, Eric.

But, I still say SWE had it won, even on port. All they had to do was go wide and win. I don't think NZL could have gybed fast enough around that mark to get ahead for the final reach leg.

Besides, looking at those photos, could NZL really have continued to go past the layline to the mark to attack SWE at that point? I know they use different rules than the standard RRS. Under standard RRS, going beyond that layline would have been sailing above proper course, as they were outside the zone.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 05/29/17 01:50 PM.
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #286901
05/29/17 01:50 PM
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it did look like a weak attempt at hunting, but it appears the ref gave it to them?

Not sure if they have a formal protest room or not?

Anyway, that was the best race yet with lots of speed and multiple lead changes.

The race after that was almost like watching the 12 meter cup races... Except at 30 knots smile

Suprised Cammas just followed Barker around the racecourse...


The point made earlier (I only saw the TV version) might have merit: force the other team into maneuvers and maybe their hydro pressure will run out....

And I do think the pedal power is the way to go.... Now let's see if their foil designs and overall boathandling can keep pace...


Jay

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: waterbug_wpb] #286902
05/29/17 04:00 PM
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The judges just admitted they dorked up the call and Artemis should not have been penalized. There's no recourse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqC65h-hI5k

it's important for them to admit this because teams may use or not use the outcome in the future.

Last edited by Jake; 05/29/17 04:01 PM.

Jake Kohl
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: brucat] #286903
05/29/17 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Isotope235
Originally Posted by brucat
NZL really had no chance to win, coming in on PORT, had to gybe to get around for the reaching leg to finish. SWE just needed to go wide and give NZL room.

No, coming into the final rounding mark NZ was on starboard tack, and SWE was on port. They were nearly even but NZ needed to gybe to round the mark.

It wasn't a matter of enough room - simply a starboard/port situation. Had NZ not crash-gybed (or rounded up), they would have hit SWE.

SWE needed to go a bit further before their last gybe, so they'd have room to take NZ's transom at the mark and roll NZ with speed. They didn't, and lost the protest.


Wow, I really typed that wrong. Thanks for correcting that, Eric.

But, I still say SWE had it won, even on port. All they had to do was go wide and win. I don't think NZL could have gybed fast enough around that mark to get ahead for the final reach leg.

Besides, looking at those photos, could NZL really have continued to go past the layline to the mark to attack SWE at that point? I know they use different rules than the standard RRS. Under standard RRS, going beyond that layline would have been sailing above proper course, as they were outside the zone.

Mike


Mike,

I've skimmed the rules and it looks like, had NZL been able to force Artemis to avoid, they could have ignored the gate and done so. However, the boundary zone was really close to that gate and it would have come into play very very quickly and I'm not even sure Artemis would have had time for two gybes without breaching the boundary.

I'm convinced that this three boat length circle is FAR too small for these boats. They enter and are out of that zone in about 3 seconds during normal roundings. There's no way any decisions and relevant maneuvers are going to be made in that zone like we're accustomed to. If that zone were twice as large (6 boat lengths), now the actual rounding rules might come into play - or the rules need to be different somehow...Regardless, there is a screwy rule thing in the AC rule 18 and the course descriptions where that looks like that rounding at the bottom just before the finish would still considered a gate and not a single mark to be rounded even though they need to turn left to get to the finish. They have a course option for the finish to follow a single mark in the middle of the course but the finish after those two marks still call them a gate and there are specific rule differences between marks and gates.

https://docs.google.com/a/acracemgt...b3RpY2Vib2FyZHxneDo3MWQ1ZjgxYThhNjY2NDRh


Jake Kohl
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Jake] #286904
05/29/17 04:13 PM
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All the mark/gate stuff is all mute, though - because, as you said, this was a simple port starboard situation. I think NZ couldn't make up their mind to try and push Artemis but when they realized they couldn't get there, they were unprepared for the gybe and basically pulled off a bit of a soccer style flop and got the penalty call. It's really hard to tell from the moving helicopter footage whether or not NZL could actually get to Artemis or not. I saw a brief angle from Artemis' tail camera that was focused on NZ and it really didn't look like NZ could get there to force Artemis off their spot.

one thing for sure, though, Artemis could have rounded even wider and saved themselves from the call. They still needed to go through the gate (see my notes above) but they could have dropped even lower and made that much less close.

Last edited by Jake; 05/29/17 04:14 PM.

Jake Kohl
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Jake] #286905
05/29/17 04:27 PM
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I was watching the Virtual Eye overhead view at the time and all I could really tell was that the crossing was very close. I didn't even see the penalty indicator until the boats were halfway down the reach leg. It's a pity that the umpires made what they now consider to be a bad call, and that there's no redress for Artemis.

It was my understanding that mark 6 is a rounding mark, not a gate, but I'll have to look into that.

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Isotope235] #286906
05/29/17 06:47 PM
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Richard Gladwell sums it up nicely . . .
Quote
As has been seen in the first three days of racing in the 35th America’s Cup, the competition has been closer than ever. The outcome of each race is unpredictable and races are being won and lost by extremely fine margins. This means that the pressure on the umpires to make the correct calls is greater than ever before.

As in all sports, umpires are not infallible and on this occasion, even with the best sailing umpires in the world that are overseeing the 35th America’s Cup, they have admitted that their decision, on reflection, may have been different.

Umpires admit error in controversial win for Kiwis


Philip
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Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: P.M.] #286907
05/29/17 06:51 PM
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Don't know if any of you saw it but NZ hit 46 knots in the pre-start. That's . . . like . . . 53 mph for us non metric rednecks.
smile


Philip
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Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: P.M.] #286908
05/29/17 07:05 PM
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I know that NO ONE is happy about this (except maybe NZL). TV or otherwise, I think it's inexcusable not to be able to correct such an error. Yes, this was close, but suppose the umpires mess up something even more obvious? May not seem possible, but we're all human.

This reminds me of the MLB umpire that screwed a pitcher out of a no-hitter a few years ago. He knew he blew the call, but no one could fix Humpty Dumpty at the time. I believe that the replay rules have fixed that, and rightly so.

No one (including umpires) wants their career to end over a mistake (which should be fixable).

Mike

PS/EDIT: I do fully agree that they should be using a zone of at least four lengths. Wouldn't work for us mere mortals, but they're doing everything with GPS, so it wouldn't be a problem for the boats or umps.

Last edited by brucat; 05/29/17 07:07 PM.
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: brucat] #286911
05/30/17 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
I know that NO ONE is happy about this (except maybe NZL). TV or otherwise, I think it's inexcusable not to be able to correct such an error. Yes, this was close, but suppose the umpires mess up something even more obvious? May not seem possible, but we're all human.

This reminds me of the MLB umpire that screwed a pitcher out of a no-hitter a few years ago. He knew he blew the call, but no one could fix Humpty Dumpty at the time. I believe that the replay rules have fixed that, and rightly so.

No one (including umpires) wants their career to end over a mistake (which should be fixable).

Mike

PS/EDIT: I do fully agree that they should be using a zone of at least four lengths. Wouldn't work for us mere mortals, but they're doing everything with GPS, so it wouldn't be a problem for the boats or umps.


Brucat, it's different because the penalties are being assessed live on the water during racing. I know you know this following bit but to refresh, there's a difference in how match racers treat penalties. The match racing boats do not exonerate themselves in the case of an infraction. They only do so after a penalty is assessed by the judges/computers so the judges carry a lot more responsibility. While this was a clear case of a penalty right before an obvious outcome at the finish, imagine if the debatable penalty had occurred on the first downwind gate rounding? How would you correct a judging error at the end of that race? You would have no way to know how exactly that penalty affected the outcome. I don't think it's possible to universally be able to revisit a judging error when the calls are being made live unless you can stop the action while it's revisited.


Jake Kohl
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Jake] #286912
05/30/17 07:59 AM
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Today's Live Racing: Qualifiers Round 1

12:00 Bermuda
NZL vs SWE

12:30 Bermuda
FRA vs USA

13:00 Bermuda
SWE vs GBR

First race is a rematch of yesterdays debacle. Would be sweet revenge for a SWE victory.

Sir Ben badly needs a win today.


Philip
USA #1006
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