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Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Mn3Again] #288006
10/21/17 08:04 AM
10/21/17 08:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
Redtwin Offline
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Redtwin  Offline
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Panama City, Florida
Originally Posted by Mn3Again
more press with cool boats
may peek more littleones to want to sail


Especially if the AC goes back to monos. Even foiling monos are boring compared to catamarans. Of course, I'm biased.


Rob V. Nacra 5.2 Panama City
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Mn3Again] #288011
10/27/17 01:15 AM
10/27/17 01:15 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 26
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garda Offline
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Originally Posted by Mn3Again
more press with cool boats
may peek more littleones to want to sail


But we've had more "cool boats" over the last few years than ever before, and very, very few people are buying them. The Moths have led the way, and they got only 14 boats to the last US titles - well down on recent years once again. In the biggest Australian states the Moth state titles got just 14 boats (fewer than before foils) and there's only two active boats in the second-biggest state. The class reports that in the two biggest countries numbers are static or falling and in other nations there's only 40 or so boats or more.

The foiling cats are attracting very few buyers considering the size of the sport. Kitefoilers seem to be quicker than foiling cats or Moths, but the fleets appear to be small, especially among the kids.

Meanwhile medium or slow hiking singlehanded monos are doing well, slow kids boats are doing really well, and the ocean races like the Fastnet that concentrate on normal monos like Beneteaus and J Boats are doing well.

In the wider market we are seeing surveys, studies and press reports that say that the young adults these days don't normally want high-tech high-speed, they want simplicity and economy, which is why they are almost all ignoring foilers but hundreds of thousands of them are buying slow SUPs.

If press and cool boats was going to pique interest, it would have done so by now. It hasn't. Let's learn from that and move on.

Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: garda] #288012
10/27/17 07:20 AM
10/27/17 07:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
Redtwin Offline
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I craved going out on my old crusty 5.2 each time I watched those foiling 72-footers. It's not about getting them out to buy foiling boats, it's about getting them off the iPads and Gameboys and on the water in a boat that doesn't require a trip to the gas station.


Rob V. Nacra 5.2 Panama City
Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #288013
10/28/17 05:09 AM
10/28/17 05:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I'll bet it's more about the price and the learning curve to get foiling that is keeping kids on SUP's and Lasers.


Blade F16
#777
Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Redtwin] #288017
10/29/17 10:14 PM
10/29/17 10:14 PM
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garda Offline
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Originally Posted by Redtwin
I craved going out on my old crusty 5.2 each time I watched those foiling 72-footers. It's not about getting them out to buy foiling boats, it's about getting them off the iPads and Gameboys and on the water in a boat that doesn't require a trip to the gas station.


Yes, but it's not working, and for understandable reasons. iPads and Gameboys are designed with an interesting eye on the psychology of reinforcement and other insights into what makes people want to play. They offer an easy entry level and lots of other levels to conquer and get a feeling of accomplishment. The games can require a lot of commitment, but it's commitment to playing and with lots of rewards along the way, not commitment to earning $25,000 to buy a boat, two hours to rig it, a few hours of maintenance, and a lot of frustration and fear while learning to sail at high speeds.

There have been two major studies involving professional surveys asking people why they don't sail. It's because they feel it's scary, complicated and elitist, not because they feel its boring. Watching boats that even the pros call scary and complicated is not going to attract many people.

Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Timbo] #288018
10/29/17 10:29 PM
10/29/17 10:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 26
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garda Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
I'll bet it's more about the price and the learning curve to get foiling that is keeping kids on SUP's and Lasers.


Yep, and of course practicality and the fact that most people just don't care less about pure ultimate speed. If we did, none of us would be sailing cats - we'd all be on kiteboards and kitefoilers.

A Laser is also just a great boat to sail in a lot of ways. Instead of standing on a hull several feet above water and with your head about 14 feet from where the hull is slicing through, you're often inside a stream of spray and when you're hiking flat your head is about two feet above the water. In strong winds, they are an incredibly intense boat to sail well; you're bouncing the whole boat through the waves upwind while heading up and down over each bit of chop, and downwind you're using heel to steer the boat down the waves, carving turns of 30 degrees or more as you go from just above square to well by the lee, right on the knife edge of rolling in with a thud. And when you get in, the boat is unrigged in 10 minutes.

The big cats are also great fun, which is why I also sail them, but it's very different; more like riding a runaway rocket through the air than riding a bucking bronco which is what a Laser is like. And it all feeds back into the reason why mono racers did not turn onto cats when they saw them in the AC. It's not that they are anti-cat or old-fashioned, they just like different things just like some people like fine scotch and some like fine wine.

Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: garda] #288019
10/29/17 10:42 PM
10/29/17 10:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Excellent Points about the actual market in 2017.

Keep in mind that besides boat sales..... you were highlighting NA turnouts.... IE competition.

IMO... all of the technology development is serving to undermine competition. How?
Its about the pecking order.... In any class... the trophies are going to go to the elite racers. So why would the next 80 sailors go.... My answer is that its about the competition.... that is the essential fun factor, that keeps you coming back. Competent sailors enjoying Corinthian competition. NOBODY travels to participate. (I am not considering rec sailors who take the family on the water to just sail as a pastime)

When the game tilts to equipment innovation... Or , have you invested enough time to become competent in say foiling... The fun factor in competing is missing. If you are still working on foiling your moth.... you are not spending the cash and time to travel and participate.. You will find a way to travel and spend the money if the game is about competing.

Prime example .. A class. the A Class is a development class. They managed wave after wave of technology changes... until Foiling. Cats versus dogs at that point.. The expectation was that floater would be gone from world competition within a year or two and flying would quickly trickle down to the local level. But ... the sailors did not behave as the past. Flying was a totally different thing.... So... the reality was... nope... still lots of floating boats on the water.

So they finally did the right thing and create two divisions within the class.... They are FINALLY back to recognizing the integrity of the competition with championships in the two divisions.

Creating the conditions for competition though out the fleet is a magical thing and often overlooked.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #288022
10/30/17 11:33 AM
10/30/17 11:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 903
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Very good read on the market as a whole.

The A-Cat fleet in the U.S led that one Mark, and has had trophies for both fleets with one starting line for the last 2 years or more. They also have the highest turnout going of any beach cat or high performance boat in the U.S at the moment (probably ignoring the Scow's and the J/70's, but the latter isn't particularly high performing). 43 boats are registered for the Woods Brothers Regatta next month in Atlanta.

A lot of average sailors find the foiler scary, I have found the same thing at times as the speeds are vastly higher than what we are used to with the floaters. The difference is the elite sailors enjoy the challenge, there is a spot for the mid level sailor in the floater fleet to earn a trophy, and the back of the foiler fleet is loving the learning curve. Foiling A's are also cheaper and less technical than moths. Really the only additional thing beyond a floater is the rake control system. This also makes the boats simpler than anything else out there that flies, or for that matter doesn't, for the speed you get. Foil kiteboarding is a riot but you need a strong core and have a high overall skillset.


F18 Infusion
Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: garda] #288024
10/31/17 10:15 AM
10/31/17 10:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Originally Posted by garda
Originally Posted by Redtwin
I craved going out on my old crusty 5.2 each time I watched those foiling 72-footers. It's not about getting them out to buy foiling boats, it's about getting them off the iPads and Gameboys and on the water in a boat that doesn't require a trip to the gas station.


Yes, but it's not working, and for understandable reasons. iPads and Gameboys are designed with an interesting eye on the psychology of reinforcement and other insights into what makes people want to play. They offer an easy entry level and lots of other levels to conquer and get a feeling of accomplishment. The games can require a lot of commitment, but it's commitment to playing and with lots of rewards along the way, not commitment to earning $25,000 to buy a boat, two hours to rig it, a few hours of maintenance, and a lot of frustration and fear while learning to sail at high speeds.

There have been two major studies involving professional surveys asking people why they don't sail. It's because they feel it's scary, complicated and elitist, not because they feel its boring. Watching boats that even the pros call scary and complicated is not going to attract many people.



Yup, like most things, it comes down to Time and Money.

The Gameboy/iPad/video games don't need a car and a trailer to get to a competition, and the kids can play indoors no matter what the weather, or even if it's dark outside. I have seen many newbies (adults, not kids) show up at regattas, get their butts kicked, and never return. I actually overheard one wife asking her husband, "We bought all the right stuff, why aren't we winning races?". The learning curve is much steeper to be successful racing a cat than even a mono, and now add the extra learning and costs required to foil, it's the main reason I'm not foiling, no time to learn, no money to buy one.


Blade F16
#777
Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #288025
11/01/17 04:03 PM
11/01/17 04:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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The other point about electronic games is that there is no real "peril" of failure. Just reset and keep going.

In all other sports/activities I can think of, "fail" may include any number of the following:
- injury
- damage
- despair
- humiliation
- increased effort to improve
- delayed gratification

All harder things to surmount vs. just clicking a few buttons.

Which builds character? Which gives greater satisfaction when achieved? Which forms lifelong lessons and wisdom?

But how do you SELL those factors?


Jay

Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #288065
11/20/17 02:57 PM
11/20/17 02:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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three point foiling configuration

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11946082

It doesn't look inherently able to self right (more like a giant skiff) - I'm interested in how they will carry that out.

I'm also interested in how the rules are going to manage the foil positions in close quarters like at the start. Those things are out there and just asking to be shoved into another boat's cockpit....or, at the very least, they protrude a great deal beyond the beam of the boat underwater and could be really hard to see in anything but clear water. It's going to be hard to keep these boats from "locking horns".


Jake Kohl
Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #288066
11/20/17 05:02 PM
11/20/17 05:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
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P.M.  Offline
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On the Water
The windward foil is going to kill somebody. The design is a disaster for trickle down fleet racing. Any appendages outside of the hull beam is just wrong for sailing. This will give new meaning to the hook during the dialup. Bertelli and Dalton have their heads up their a sses.

Here is the video.





Philip
USA #1006
Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #288067
11/20/17 06:13 PM
11/20/17 06:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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counter point - they honestly look like an iceboat. They survive fleet racing at significantly higher speeds - I guess these will too....of course, though, their skates aren't at ear level.


Jake Kohl
Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #288069
11/21/17 12:06 PM
11/21/17 12:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
in moderate air can I send all the crew out to the windward foil like the Bahamians on their hiking boards?

If the self-righting thing is correct, then those foils must have some ballast associated with them...? And how do you move those foils when the boat's on its side? Someone has to crawl up and start cranking?

They probably should make those foils connect so that perhaps you can slide in/out along the foil (windward one moves to beam, leeward one extends out/down) along some sort of (enclosed) channel within the hull...

I think someone in the VOR or TJV had a foil setup like that although it had some issues if I recall...

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 11/21/17 12:06 PM.

Jay

Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #288070
11/21/17 12:52 PM
11/21/17 12:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
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“The foil management will largely be done with battery power."

that crew talk didn't last long . . .


Philip
USA #1006
Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: P.M.] #288071
11/21/17 01:10 PM
11/21/17 01:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by P.M.
“The foil management will largely be done with battery power."

that crew talk didn't last long . . .



So, are they cranking magnetos/generators instead of winches? Or do they have to plug the boats in after every race?


Jay

Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #288072
11/21/17 01:10 PM
11/21/17 01:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
leave the foils down and make the dang thing a trimaran...


Jay

Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #288675
03/14/18 08:41 AM
03/14/18 08:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
Pooh-Bah
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On the Water


Philip
USA #1006
Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #288676
03/14/18 05:24 PM
03/14/18 05:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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The part that got my attention was the last sentence: Spithill's departure ads to speculation that Oracle will not contest the next America's Cup.

So.... is Larry a sore loser, or has he just had enough of blowing billions on fast boats?

I think these foiling monohulls, in addition to looking stupid, are a step backwards in technology and design evolution and I'll be surprised if they are faster than the foiling cats were.


Blade F16
#777
Re: 36th America's Cup [Re: Timbo] #288677
03/16/18 04:37 PM
03/16/18 04:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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It's pretty much official - Oracle is done.


Jake Kohl
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