Thanks John/Steve, good comments.

Steve the problem with wanting to 'harass the bigger boats downwind' by using a kite is, they're all fitting kites too now and so eventually you'll end up back at square 1, but with a shirtload more rigging to do to sail in a class, even more fragmented than it already is. How many Mozzies are there racing with kites and how many are on the start line of any given race? I ask this because I think it's a mistake to be thinking about trying to go with the bigger boats. That sort of thinking is a legacy of a sport which is fragmented by too many classes. The various classes now have to race together simply to have a decent number of boats on the start line. In this situation you're trying to make a bad situation better by being competitive amongst bigger boats rather than concentrating on building numbers within your own class. Not good.
In an optimum situation there'd be enough boats in a class to demand their own start and race only with boats of similar performance, not a mixed fleet where the 16ftrs get creamed by the 20ftrs. Fitting spinnakers to smaller boats simply delays the time when there'd be enough boats of similar performance on the start line, by further fragmenting an already seriously fragmented fleet. Presently, you have a very limited number of Mozzies on the water and to make the situation worse, they're now racing in three classes. Not good.

The whole idea of developing the 14ft cat regatta concept is to consolidate by facilitating a group of classes with similar performance. Making one particular division within that class significantly superior is counterproductive.
Bern

Steve,


>>>it`s so bad that if we take the kite down a bit too early before the leeward mark, it feels like ages before you get to the mark under main & jib alone.


Ahhh Yeah that's awfull isn't. And you're eating yourself up all the while because they others are just running you down SOOOO quickly. It's pure torment.

Also because you really have the point up a bit to make some speed under main and jib alone but then you'll miss the mark and have to do 2 extra gibes. WHILE THE OTHERS CAN POINT RIGHT TO THE MARK. One time it was so bad that we just hoisted the spi again to have it up for a few more seconds.

Wouter

To be really honest, I don't spend 20 min more time rigging only to fit the spi.

You guys must be including something that isn't related to the spi.

From a completely setup up sloop rigged boat I only need : 4 minutes to rig the spinnaker. Snuffer stays on the pole slides over the pin on the mainbeam. AHPC quick knots (see picture) take 10 secs a side to fit the support lines. The mid section supportline I just snap to the pole and I tension the whole system by lifting the pole in the middle and hooking it on it the line coming down from the bridle.

Spi halyard stays on the mast; so untie that run it through the block on the tramp and pull it through the snuffer sock using an extra line that you disconnect later. (this line is run throught the sock when disassembling the platform)

I leave the 4 ratchet block on the spi sheet and use the loops + balls system to fit two ratchets to eyelets in the trampoline ; the loops run over the main beam and back. And the two remaining ratchets are shackled to the sidestays.

Clock is running at about 2 minutes now.

The fitting of the spi and running of the retrieval line through the spi takes the most time; anything between 2 to 3 minutes. But after that everything has been done. 5 min is doable with the gear along side you. 10 minutes with mishaps and walking over to the car a few time. 20 minutes (for only the spi gear)? That's far to long.

Trick with running the spi retrieval line or to grap the luff at one corner and than sort of flake the spi to your left hand while walking down the luff to the top. Now all the patches can be easily found and you cna run the retrieval line through them even when their is wind on short. The spi flaps but it is controllable as you are holding the luff bundled up in yout lefts hand. Help of your crew is welcome but it is doable alone.




>>>Steve the problem with wanting to 'harass the bigger boats downwind' by using a kite is, they're all fitting kites too now and so eventually you'll end up back at square 1,


Try thinking of it this way. Everybody gets a kite with the jump in performance with it instead of you.

You'll leave the beach 10 minutes sooner, in some case even 20 minutes, by the end of the race the rest of sailors will be back on short and almost finished up packing before you cross the finish line.



>>>but with a shirtload more rigging to do to sail in a class, even more fragmented than it already is.


Sorry Berny, you are just looking for argument to support your favoured outcome. Fragmentation was created and perfect BEFORE the advent of spinnakers. It at all the introduction of spinnakers has made the F18. F20, Tornado and what not closer in performance than anything else. Mainly because sailing skill is more important now than ever without the spi. The example by steve of dropping your spi to soon is a perfect example of that.



>>>That sort of thinking is a legacy of a sport which is fragmented by too many classes. The various classes now have to race together simply to have a decent number of boats on the start line.

Okay, so if we all drop the spi than in some magical way we'll get all those boats back on the start-line doing one-design racing ?

That scene is GONE, not likely to return. The best shot at big one-design fleets we have right now are the Formula classes ; and without a spi a formula class is trying to fight a losing battle. I think even the A-cats themselfs will become a victom in time. Either that or they too must incorporate a spi.

We have a supercharged A-cat (wider at 2.6 mtr. and 160 sq.ft of sailarea instead of 150) racing at each race in at our club. The guy knows how to sail. But even he is working on a spi setup for his supercharged A. Problem is that in really light winds and really strong winds he can hang with the F18's and F20's. In anything else he is doomned. He reaches the A-mark first on the first leg each time, but after that the formula's pull a spi and it is all over. That is on elasped time. On handicap it is even worse.


>>In an optimum situation there'd be enough boats in a class to demand their own start and race only with boats of similar performance, not a mixed fleet where the 16ftrs get creamed by the 20ftrs.


It is exactly this exclusive "I want my own start" mindset that fragmentated the cat scene. Therfor it will not provide a route back to the glory times.

With all due respect; How are you going to attract all these sailors to your class when you don't want to sail in mixed fleets.

The argument you'll get it :"yeah, because you know we'll role you while sailing our current boats"


>>Fitting spinnakers to smaller boats simply delays the time when there'd be enough boats of similar performance on the start line, by further fragmenting an already seriously fragmented fleet.


How can a seriously fragemented fleet be harmed significantly more by a little further fragmentation. How bad is even more broke when it was broken beyond repair already ?


>>>Presently, you have a very limited number of Mozzies on the water and to make the situation worse, they're now racing in three classes. Not good.


From my perspective, based on Steve Comments and that of some Aussies, the Mossie class has really revitilized themselfs by adopting the spi. And I think as good as all mosquito's in SA with Steve are running spis now. In addition the international profile of the Mossies was significantly raised via this F16 route.

Now I mean, your points may be valid from an individual sailors perspective but in the larger scheme of things you will find that the only hold you down longer or lead to extension.


>>>The whole idea of developing the 14ft cat regatta concept is to consolidate by facilitating a group of classes with similar performance. Making one particular division within that class significantly superior is counterproductive.


Than what will be your selling argument to attract sailors to your class ?

Of course I understand that F14 is not my league so please excusse me for butting in.

Wouter

Hey Wouter,
I`ve never taken it down THAT early (except once, it looked like a tight reach from B-C, so I took down as we reached B, Gybed & passed the others on a 2 sail reach while they were fighting the kites, but that`s different). On another occassion I capzised twice in one leg, so hoisted & retrieved the kite 3 times in one leg, but I`m hoping to avoid a repeat, it gets too tiring & does nothing for your boatspeed.

Berny :
In SA we have very segregated fleets, and only sail open class a few times a year at the Longhaul Point Series. Mostly we sail Mozzies, Hobie 16`s & Dart 18 in separate class & club events, mainly becuase certain clubs have become "home bases" for each class. In answer to your question, we have 14-18 Mozzies sailing at most club events, and the spinnaker has taken off so much so that at our last event we had 1 non-spinnaker boat. The Hobies sail at another club so we seldom race against them, and the Darts only sail inland, very few in our neighbourhood.

The bit about hanging in there downwind with the bigger boats is academic, the Hobie Tigers are quicker than we are, and start separately in open events, so it`s a case of trying to hold them off as long as possible, as much as we provide them with "targets". It`s all fun, and the separation of classes would happen anyway, the kite just lets us have way more speed & fun than without it. (And we ARE sometimes qucker than them, which freaks them out a bit)
Your scenario at your home club is different, seems you sail with a mixed fleet of mostly 14fters, none with spinnakers. I`d understand that if you put a kite up, you`d isolate yourself from the rest, and have no-one to race against. I suppose different scenarios dictate different responses - If there were 20 430`s and you put up a kite, the rest would see you blasting off & probably order the spinnaker kit. Perhaps if Darryl`s F14 takes off in numbers you could join in with them.
Either way, always remember to have fun when you`re sailing, even if there`s no-one to race ! .

Berny -

The fundamental idea of getting a bunch of similar-performing 14-footers on the line is a good one and at the heart of the formula movement. I'm in a bit of a backwater here in NW Florida, though, and the spin is keeping me alive. None of the bigger boats would let me come out and play if I were on the Wave or a Hobie 14, though I've demonstrated in the regattas I've administered that the right size course will keep the scratch boat from having to wait around for more than about 20 minutes in-between races, during which time there is a steady stream of finishers to keep you entertained anyway. Even the self-styled "class director," while keeping his F-14 sails, has sold a boat and his solid-section mast, purchased a 17-footer with a kite, and begun his assault on a national title in that class (good luck, Bob - knock 'em dead in Tybee!). I haven't seen Terry on his purple-people-eater Hobie 14 lately – he was on an A boat last regatta. So here am I, the only F-14 making regional races. Am I whining about it? Maybe a little, but it is still the right boat for me, which is how I wound up here to begin with, and at 36, I'm not about to suddenly grow a half meter and (heaven forbid) gain 40 pounds.

I agree that fragmenting small classes and trying to rig up to beat larger boats is bad – I’m not out for that. The exhilaration of racing larger jib-and-main boats is an unintended side effect of my circumstances, but I enjoy the hell out of it anyway. And your point about more and more larger boats going to spinnakers is also valid – I enjoy sharing the line with Hobie 16s, however, and I don’t see them moving to the spin here in NA, despite the Hobie Europe politicking. I’m trying to do some fleet building down here, but I feel like an army of one – there’s interest, but most of the people best suited to the F-14 are steady crew on bigger boats with limited desire to become skippers. I can’t blame them – I was there for years. All the benefits with much less investment of time and money.

All of this is conspiring to keep me spinning for the foreseeable. In the mean time the 4.3 class is still kicking and there are several at any given CRAM, CRAW, and OCRA event – once I get my pre-toddler a bit more settled, I think a couple of trips north to 4.3 country will be fun. The F-14 continues to draw a lot of attention and questions every time I sail it – there’s an attraction to a very economical but responsive boat that has loose enough class rules to allow for any combination of crew, sails or equipment.

As far as the differences in the North American and Aussie F-14s, I think they will work themselves out given a little time. I think we’ll find we’re subject to convergent evolution – we’ll adapt to different environments to fill the same niche. In the interim, let’s keep the discussion going so we each know what’s working well and why. Next Gulf Coast F-14 regatta? Juana’s Good Time, September 9-11. Can’t wait? I’ll be at Mayor’s Cup, August 7. Wrapping up the Trident series with another 25-miler this weekend in Pensacola Bay. Bring it on.

The only thing that I can say is that 14'cats are not 16'cats and 16'cats are not 18' cats etc etc, and as any development in "speed" occurs, it will filter through to ALL classes and sizes of cats, eventually. So there will ALWAYS be the relative difference in performance between "sizes" as there has always been, SO????
Fragmentation of classes??? Whats new??? in the seventies through to the mid eighties, there was the biggest boom in off the beach catamaran sailing that has ever been seen. At eight different yacht clubs here during that time, it was not unusual to see fleets of up to 100 (and more) cats starting at each and all of those clubs (and this was along a strip of "city" beach of about 22km's where all those clubs are spread side by side, sometimes the set courses between clubs would actually overlap). The pressure then was to divide the different classes into their own starts (some even had their own courses) I.E. Windrush start 1, Hobie 14 start 2, Sundace 14 start 3, Hobie 16 start 4, Mosquito start 5, etc etc etc. this was because, although most people posting here seem to think that large "massed" starts and large numbers of cats sailing the same course is really great, when it is experienced week after week, month in and month out, most serious sailors prefer to compete against cats that are of "similar performance" and don't want to be always harrassed by "other" cats that "are not in their class", and only interfere in the competition that is going on between "similar" sailing rivals. The reasons that I see that this attitude has apparently changed now is that that sort of club racing numbers and shear numbers of cats racing each weekend hasn't been experienced for many years, BUT the same situation will arise again, "Whatever goes around, comes around"
Darryl J Barrett

We manufactured 14, 16, and 18ft cats in the late 70's and early 80's with spinnakers as viable options, and I have to say that the difference in rigging them with or without spinnaker, when you were familiar and comfortable with the process, was only the difference of no more than ten minutes. The extra lines on the deck was only minimal and never a problem if a little "good house keeping" and thought was used in the set up. It's a bit like the difference that I have seen between one sailor setting up his boat on the beach and taking an hour to get it ready while another with the same cat hits the beach and is ready to sail in about ten minutes. it seems that although we know what the horse is like, it's the jockey that we are uncertain of. (although I do have to say that as a personal preference, I like a cat, cat rigged and as "clean" and simply layed out as possible, sailed one up, there is a purety in that form that is hard to deny)

Mate it took you longer than 10 mins. just to type all that, never mind actually do it!


Try thinking of it this way Wouter. No 14's bother fitting kites. At our 14ft only regattas, everyone gets back to the beach roughly at the same time after a great race where everyone has a great time on boats which don't cost two arms and a leg to own and don't take *any* extra time to rig or de-rig, and because they are 14ft only regattas, it doesn't matter a squirt what the bigger spinnaker boats are doing.


>>>but with a shirtload more rigging to do to sail in a class, even more fragmented than it already is.<<<



Sorry Wouter I thought that's what we do here?

Yes but I still see no need to continue to promote it.


>>>That sort of thinking is a legacy of a sport which is fragmented by too many classes. The various classes now have to race together simply to have a decent number of boats on the start line.<<<

Please explain???
They'd have to be insane to go down that road. IMHO it would destroy the class.


>>In an optimum situation there'd be enough boats in a class to demand their own start and race only with boats of similar performance, not a mixed fleet where the 16ftrs get creamed by the 20ftrs.<<<



Not logical.


You miss my point. I'm talking about 14ft only regattas where all 14ft classes compete together. We've been doing it for 12years. We get 50+ 14's of various designs on the start line. We'll be doing two regattas this season and hopefully a GP type circuit not too far down the track.


>>>The whole idea of developing the 14ft cat regatta concept is to consolidate by facilitating a group of classes with similar performance. Making one particular division within that class significantly superior is counterproductive.<<<

Large fleets of reasonably inexpensive, uncomplicated boats of various designs competing against each other on a common course. What could be better than that?



By my guest Wouter
Bern

>>Try thinking of it this way Wouter. No 14's bother fitting kites.

Mystere 4.3 , H14 max in the US, Hobie dragoon (Youth class) in EU are all using kites. Than ofcourse the various 14teen mono that most kid go through when working themselfs up in sailing. 420, 29-er etc.

I really don't think that US and EU have any significant 14 foot fleet anymore. They are all that. Maybe Aus has great 14 foot regatta's but on a global scale this is not the case.


>>At our 14ft only regattas, everyone gets back to the beach roughly at the same time after a great race where everyone has a great time on boats which don't cost two arms and a leg to own and don't take *any* extra time to rig or de-rig, and because they are 14ft only regattas, it doesn't matter a squirt what the bigger spinnaker boats are doing.


If there are such good 14 foot fleet anyway than why start a F14 class at all ? Then we shouldn't mess with a good thing.

>>Sorry Wouter I thought that's what we do here?

That is indeed what we do here. However 20 min extra time for the spi is not realistic. That fact remains unchanged.

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I think even the A-cats themselves will become a victim in time. Either that or they too must incorporate a spi.


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Please explain???
They'd have to be insane to go down that road. IMHO it would destroy the class.


I did just that in my former post. Because the A-cat get wacked on the race course by spi boats. Part of the A-cat class attractiveness was that they were the outright fastest boats around. Now with spinnakers they have big trouble finishing ahead of low tech boats. Their advantage upwind is nearly never enough to compensate for the spi advantage of the other boats. I may destroy the class but then again the same story went around about the Tornado's changing rigs and the Mossie changing rigs. Looks how both have bounched back or are now bounching back.

A-cat lived as long as they did but addapting to the changing situation and incorporating new technologies. I'll bet hords of people predicted that the Carbon mast would destroy the A-cat class as well. If the A-cat stayed as the 70's timber cat with alu mast than it would have died out long ago. Adaptation and modifications are keywords in survival.



Quote:
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It is exactly this exclusive "I want my own start" mindset that fragmented the cat scene. Therefor it will not provide a route back to the glory times.


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Not logical.


Let me explain. When looking at processes that degrade or weaken it can be said that the path that got you to where you are now will never get you back to the old situation. Therefor there is no point in trying to be even better at what you have been doing all along. If it didn't work yesterday or the day before than chances are that it won't today or tomorrow.



>>You miss my point. I'm talking about 14ft only regattas where all 14ft classes compete together.


I would like to have all F16 fleet of large numbers tomorrow as well, but that is not going to happen. We need to grow into that. Without a growth path you are going nowhere.

Excuse me for using your 430 example on you.

If the 430 is such a great boat then why aren't there big fleets of it sailing all over the world ?

If you think the solution is to be better at what you have been doing till now than I think you are deluding yourself that change is about to come.


>>We've been doing it for 12years. We get 50+ 14's of various designs on the start line. We'll be doing two regattas this season and hopefully a GP type circuit not too far down the track.

Great, Than stick to it and give F14 a boot. However I don't know of any other places in the world that mirrors this.

So the scene in my eyes is not that rosy. It is more likely on the path of extinction where a pocket is holding out valiantly in Australia.



>>Large fleets of reasonably inexpensive, uncomplicated boats of various designs competing against each other on a common course. What could be better than that?


I don't know, are buyers running down your door yet ? (Sorry to so harsh in my comments but I think you are getting my line of though)

Please note that although my comments may be harsh I give them hoping to make the F14 a succces.

Wouter

Yea...had to sell the metal mast with the other 14. Right now I still have all the parts and pieces for the F14 except the mast. I'm looking for a carbon replacement. The 14 looks lonely without a mast on it!

Bob

I think Wouter you are stuck in the catamaran mindset where due to the general lack of support for the cats in the sailing world (cats aren't nearly as popular as mono's), and the resultant small fleet outcomes, most cat regattas by necessity have to run combined class racing to get sufficient numbers to justify running a regatta at all. Not so in mono racing where there are sufficient numbers of one design boats to hold a regatta with only one class represented.
That's what I see as being the goal to reach with 14ft cats. It's already been done. There is NO future in trying to include 14ft cats at open cat regattas where even if you fitted five kites they would still be half an hour late back to the beach behind the Tornado's.

We are on our way here in Oz. It may just be that the rest of the world follows Australia in 14ft racing. It's happened before. We might be a small time backwater in the big bad swamp of life but that doesn't rule out the possibility of us 'going it alone'.

You're very negative Wouter and I understand why having spent time trying to organise cat racing, it can a be very disappointing and disillusioning experience but we shouldn't stop trying.
I think we have something unique here. Maybe it's just embryonic but the seed is planted and what may grow is anyone's guess.

I also see that any formula class would be better trying to include as many different classes in the formula is possible to try to create sufficient numbers to run a regatta in their own right. You'll never get any joy IMHO holding F16 regattas amongst F18's, Tornado's, F20 when it happens. They'll get hammered and all your people will want to move on the bigger boats thus depleting your fleets (bigger is better mentality), very unproductive.

Your scenario of getting back to the beach so long after the big boats finish that the beer is warm is just as relevant in F16 sailing against F18, 'T's' etc. Open your mind mate, look beyond the present and be optimistic that cat sailing may one day be as popular as mono sailing and F16 will have sufficient numbers to run F16 only regattas where they'll be the FIRST boats back to the beach. It's the only way forward for smaller boats IMHO or do you suggest we give up racing 14ftrs. Problem with that is there's no training class, no entry level boat to attract new blood no reasonably economical uncomplicated cats at all. Not good.
I just can't see how at a time when cat sailing is struggling, you see an improved outcome coming from making it more expensive, more complicated, more difficult to go sailing. Maybe it's just me.
Bern
P.S. I bet the Laser people are happy they didn't consult you before building that boat.

Hey come on a bit fellas! we all seem to be argueing over "personal points of view! most people know that you can't change someones opinion by simply arguing about it. Whether spinnakers do or don't become the standard on cats, whether or not "A" class go spinnaker, whether or not an F14 revitalises 14' cat sailing are all "achedemic points of view" at this point in time! time is the only factor that will show which road is travelled.
When you put catamaran and for that matter ALL sailing into context, you realise that for sailing to expand as a sport it depends more than anything on the current socio economic conditions!
sailing has never been a "main stream" sport, (compared to "football, baseball, rugby, basketball", etc etc, it is virtually "non existant" and as such it is very much influenced by the amount of disposable income that the "common man" has available after meeting his esentual living expenses.
It will never be "main stream" no matter how much we (sailors) would like it to be. In the past, the slightest downturn in a local economy has proved disaterous to the number of people sailing, much more so than any other part of society that I can think of, (sailing is like a barometer to the condition of an economy) it's only when "times are good" that sailing "takes off" and every time that that has happened over the last 50 years its directions have changed,
In the early 50's, when marine ply first became available there was a boom in "home built" ply dingy's (which established most of the yacht clubs in Australia). In the late 60's when fibreglass was incorporated there was a boom in catamarans. In the late 70's there was a boom in sail boards, and in the late 90's this current mini boom in spinnakers on cats started. What is the common point about all these "booms"?? Well in between each of them there was a minor (or major) downturn in the economy, and when the "boom" movements all started and reached their peaks they were tied inextricably with the improving and booming economy's! At the start of every boom the "established classes all voiced the opinions that the "new kids on the block" were just a passing fad and wouldn't last!!! How wrong each and every one of those opinions were! The same could be said of spinnakers, but who is game enough to state that and stand by their opinion? I heard many cat sailors say before sail boards were accepted into the Olympics that they (sailboards) would very soon die as a stupid fad - wrong again - throughout the 70's dingy sailors were adamant that cats aren't "real boats" and will curl up in a corner and die, wrong! Fibreglass for boats is too heavy, too slow, and too expensive, remember that?
Forget the arguments fellas, there are just too few cats sailors around to be arguing over such unimportant things, lets agree to disagree and get on with putting on a united front and "promote ALL catamarn sailing". It doesn't matter what you sail and "which is best" that doesn't last. The best doday is second tomorrow anyway. The good points are that we all love "CATAMARANS" in their many different and varied forms, shapes and performances, lets all remember that and the rest will follow its natural progression.

Besides at the clubs in South Australia it doesn't matter if you get back to the beach at 10 pm, the beer is still cold, the showers are still hot and the tractors are still available to tow your boat up the beach, and most of the sailors never leave the club bar until well after dark. PERHAPS we're just lucky here in GOD'S OWN COUNTRY???

1) It looked fun.
2) It is fun.
3) It seems the only reasonable way, being located in the southeast USA,I can get back to class racing in a 14' single handed cat.
4) the cost was very reasonable for me to rebuild my boat.

My real hope now is that the latter goal of racing these things somehow gets realized....

Pat

Whatever gets "bums on boats" on the water is AOK by me, (ps "BUMS" in Australia is the same as butt in the USA, not a "down and out" or "tramp")

Don't get excited Daz, we're just have a lively discussion, nothing personal just a good debate old mate . Struth, we should be able to discuss stuff, it's what makes the world go round well that a sailing anyway.
Bern

Hey Guys,
Valid points all round, and a good, argumentative but non-confrontational discussion going on here.
Bern, problem with guys like me & Wouter is that we`re addicted to pure speed. The spinnaker makes SAILING the boat so much more fun that I wouldn`t be able to sail without it. Having said that, if I raced in a non-spin. fleet I`d ditch the kite & compete on equal terms, so in that respect i`d agree with you. I`d be the first one to go back to a Paper Tiger if we had a strong class here.
On the flip-side, if you sail with a kite everyone else looks on in disbelief as you fly a hull downwind in 5 knots & thinks "hey, looks like fun, for a small investment I can add that turbocharger to my boat too !". Of course there`s no guarantee it will work out that way, you may have a divided fleet as you said, and the whole fragile setup that exists currently could collapse. We had very real concerns when adding the kite to the Mozzie in SA (South Africa, not South Australia !), but after a year and a half we have shown considerable growth and a re-awakening in our existing fleet : Example - a Mozzie sailor sold his Mozzie & bought a Hobie 16, and has now sold the H16 & bought a new Mozzie with kite, as it looks more exciting & is faster than the Hobie. So we won back a sailor we thought we`d lost. My point is that if you don`t keep your class exciting to the sailors who ARE ALREADY IN IT, you will really struggle to attract new sailors, and may lose a few of the existing guys to faster boats. Of course, there is a place for non-spinn. 14ft boats, as newcomers to sailing would be overwhelmed by the spinnaker if they buy a high-performance boat first time. Not too many beginners start off on Tornados or I-20`s.
One thing I can`t agree with Wouter on is the A-class, it`s a perfect single-hander, and just becuase it isn`t the fastest catamaran anymore due to the introduction of spinnakers in other classes doesn`t mean it can`t survive without a spinnaker. I don`t believe that it will suffer just becuase other boats are quicker, as a class it will remain strong as long as it is supported by it`s class memnbers. Since it is the pinnacle of development class single handed sailing I don`t see a threat.
The Laser class is still strong despite the 29er being faster, I don`t think you`ll see a spinnaker on the Laser anytime soon.
The main resaon I think sailing is on a decline is that we are not doing enough to get NON_SAILORS into the sport, new boats come onto the market, but the only people buying them are existing sailors, so that in turn causes a decline in older classes.

Cheers
Steve

I think you are absolutely right Steve. There has been NO serious thought or effort put into recruiting new blood into cat sailing for a very long time that I know of. The 14ftrs, are undoubtedly the best entry level class but it has been seriously neglected by cat entrepreneurs the world over. I've raced 14ftrs for the past 15 odd years and the technology is still 20-30years old. Except for my 430 there has been almost No development in 14ft cats over that time, a sad state of affairs. I agree it could be argued that there's been no input because there's been no interest but it could just as easily be argued that there's been no interest because there's been no development. The problem seems to be that organisers don't seem to appreciate the importance of providing for, or encouraging younger sailors. Rather, smaller boats here in Australia anyway, are generally seen as a bloody nuisance at open regattas.
My interest is in supporting the 14ft effort and encouraging young sailors wherever possible.

No I don't see the 'A' class ever adopting a spinnaker. Like formula 1 in motor racing, their whole philosophy is to extract maximum performance from a minimum energy source. There's definitely a valid place for formula 1 race cars as there is also a place for 125 GP race bikes but just not racing on the same circuit at the same time as the Moto GP bikes. Formula 1 will never race with 6 litre V8's.
I see 14ftrs as the 125's, and the A's as the formula 1's of sailing. We've just got to get the idea across that, like the 125's, 14ft cats have a valid and indispensible place in the cat world.
Bern

P.S. Wouter you're right in that even though my 430 is the fastes 14ft cat in the world by a street it's not attracting much interest but you think if I make even faster by fitting kite it will?

Ok so here's the provisional capitulation Wouter (sort of):).

Thinking about this further and somewhat as a result of your comments I've realised that a market exists for the 430 with kite for those who might currently be sailing a less than optimal 16 two up, and who might want to go single handed on a hi tech. 14 with equal or better performance than what they are accustom to.
I will continue with development along the lines that a purchaser can opt for fitting the kite or not in a campaign where both classes could be catered for.
Bern

>>>Formula 1 will never race with 6 litre V8's

You may be right about that but for different reason than you assign to it

Formula 1 engines :

"It is now well established that the optimum swept volume for a 4-stroke, petrol-burning cylinder is between 250cc and 300cc, representing 12-cylinder and 10-cylinder 3-liter engines respectively"

And I think they are running 3 liter V10's as mandated by regulations right now.

So much for your 6 liter V8. It is doubtful this engine will outperform the 3 liter V10 with regard to speed. In racing the reach in RPM is just as important as raw power.

Currently the power of F1 V10's is more than Cart and NASCAR's ; I'm told



>>P.S. Wouter you're right in that even though my 430 is the fastes 14ft cat in the world by a street it's not attracting much interest but you think if I make even faster by fitting kite it will?

No, but making sailing it more exiting and modern will. If everybody wants to buy red cars than why would a manufacturer try to convince the public that they really want a black one ?

Wouter