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Suggestions for improving catamaran racing in N A #29900
02/15/04 04:07 PM
02/15/04 04:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
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sail6000  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2001
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MI
Really like the new formation of the Formula 14 class -
its > Mission Statement: “Promote fun sailing for all ages!!”
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...ew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

To get it started F-14 rules are very SIMPLE,brief, and open, as they should be .{congrates to Bob}
It has the provision to moDify rules as needed per class member vote and add sub category classes within if needed.
Within the 14,3 hull length max. sail area is limited to 300 sq ft total including a headsail option. A hooter type added headsail {big jib}or spin , on a 24 ft max mast height may be used. Most all other design variables are open.-A non headsail 14 could also race along and add a headsail at some future time ,or add a non spin sub category .
Most likely a more development oriented lightweight HT type category under current open rule outline will be raced in category 1,and a more conventional Formula 2nd sub category may also evolve based on more defined box rule definitions including min. boat wieght, based on numerous current 14 ft productions boats to modify into F-14 class. These potential F-14s include the Hobie 14 -Mystere 4,3 -Trac 14 -Nacra 450-H-14 turbo , H-Wave and all other 14 range cats.

Both HT lighterweight more development category ,{with some Aussie 14 cats weighing as little as 107 Lbs} ,-and the production boats in 2nd category may both evolve within a Formula 14 class that would include potentially all 14 ft catamarans providing the best of both types of racing in one Formula class group up to 14,3 ft. L.

N A Formula-18 http://www.naf18.com
is progressing well going into its 2nd season in N A
A number of good people are actively partisipating with all types and builders of Formula 18s ,including H-Tigers in Formula 18 events in spite of conflicting Hobie Class -Hobie only policy edict as reported .
Many catsailors would like a sub category in the F-18 for existing modified 18 ft cats ,rather than just new Formula specific cats . The F-14s will see numerous modified Hobie -Nacras -Mysteres- etc over time in category Formula 14 class.
Formula 18s should eventually encourage the same ,-example> sub category class F-18 - Hobie 18 modifications may include ---
adding a comperable Tiger spinakker snuffer system .
add an optional modern sq top mainsail & jib as replacement needed .
other options available -
add an optional c f comptip mast replacement {half weight} along with spin snuffer options ,hardware packages , boat refinishing reducing hull weight and adding new hull color and graphics , plus new upgrades of boards rudders refinishing etc.

Any 18 of thousands that exist could be similarly modified into a sub category F-18 class ,-rules for this need to be established currently .
A non spin sub class F-18 could also be added as part of this 2nd category, all 18 L range catamarans would have a class .
added note; -recently purchased a H-18 platform w trailer for 200 dollars , and another complete H-18 with alum trailer for much less than the alum trailer costs .-putting 3 or 4 k into a refurbished boat with custom sails and refinished hull & graphics is something many many sailors would enjoy knowing that there would be a Formula class of potential 18s of all types with very similar sail areas and length weight beam specifications to race with .This entails a market strategy to encourage thousands of existing boats to be renewed ,recycled, and to help encourage new markets of spin snuffer packages and upgrades enabling sailors to get started into the sport again .

Instead H policy edict is based on a predicted forcast of continued decline and the discontinuation of brand types, as sadly per H-18 now discontinued per H .

Formula 18-HT Class is doing well ,adopting the Little Am Cup challenge and having a mini circuit of events with established race groups geographically around N A .
http://www.f18htclass.com/
several excellent builders are constructing F-18 hts.

Formula 16 ht is fortunate to have a ready made series of excellent lightweight F-16s by sereral good builders that meet this Formula classes rules outline , boat measurements, and specifications -racing is one up or two with coresponding sail plan areas.
http://www.geocities.com/F16HPclass/

What would assist the F-16 class concept is the adition of a similar sub category modified class and non spin class within F-16 or as a seperately organized class group in 16 ft L category with standard production weight boats in mind. This broadens the Formula class and promotes more entry level and eventually F-16 ht partisipation .Most importantly all 16 L category boats can race within .

Formula 20 -the iF 20 international F -20
http://www.catamaran.co.uk/IF20/IF20.htm
http://www.formula20.org/

In N A a basic proposed rules outline is on catsailor along with F-20 forum http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=Formula20

The N A version Inter 20 was not built to the iF 20 boat specification outline -instead it added 15 sq ft to the main in a larger sq top ,and has a lighter boat weight .
The 20s new at approximately 15 k are a large investment ,many owners are entrenched in a brand class and those racing groups understandabley are not interested in change. Many 20s are however .
Builder ,boat dealer support is very important ,-there is no motive or profit currently for Hobie with the failure in the marketplace of the H-Fox , its forcast of decline ,and most likely discontinuation of other existing cats like the H-20 Miracle resulting from H only fleet race edicts.
The alternative is similarly for 20s spin snuffer package modifications and moden replacement sails along with numerous minor go fast options all within a Formula racing framework to form large class racing groups .

A Formula HT 20 class has some beginnings .-based on boat specs, similar to the early B Class which the classic Tornado evolved from . The F-20 Hts will be based on the Marstom 20 ,and Ventilo 20 ,CFR 20 type designs http://www.morrellimelvin.com/page29.html
,-and include all ht 20s with similar light weight and wider beam specifications per future rules outline for N A

The A Class development type catamaran
http://www.usaca.info/ is a refined type built by numerous builders that all compete within a similar basic box rule or formula outline as to boat specifications and basic measurements . The 4 sides of the box being -Length -Beam -Weight -and Sail area. It is for the single handed sailor in the 18 ft L .
Single handed options are in F-14 and F-16 -
A sub category single handed 18 based on production boat weight should be added {5.5 uni as type example} .
http://www.yachte.com.au/classes/nacra.asp
Also a single handed spin Formula class category needed in this size range to complete the concept in 5 basic race Formula classes 14 --16--18--20--and 18 single handed class race groups , plus larger cat race groups and an added open development category mid size type.

The F-14s allow open development with few limits,
-C Class cats http://www.lacaustralia.com/
though very expensive ,allow similar development though based in solid wing sails mainly . There is an interesting discussion on racing in C Class category with solid wing types vs soft sail types w spin .
http://ms101.mysearch.com/jsp/GGcre...95.html&searchfor=C+Class+cat+racing
The ideal for an added developement class may be in between the 2 extremes in L in the 18 to 20 ft range , possibley an expanded updated 18 sq class with headsails-spin snuffer added . Clearly there is interest in such classes to allow innovation in an unlimited creative class racing environment to test design ideas and concepts within.
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

Some of the non conforming type designs --with added beam wings for example ,or other unique design features beyond L class would move up into the next and have the option of upgrading or modifying to that group spec.

Each L category can and should have variation of rules and rule intent to meet practical requirement and fill various needes of sailors, but the formation of Formula classes though random to date should be integral and complete the concept of class category racing for all .

Conserving existing manufacter's classes as they exist in pockets geographically is very important . This Formula race group concept is not to intended to completely replace brand class racing but rather integrally compliment it and assist builders .
It,s great fun to travel South to Nigel,s Spring Fever race and see a large group of older classic Isotopes http://www.intl-fiberglass.com/isotope.html for example . Any race event should provide an established class with sufficient numbers in attendance there own start and scoring.
Hobie was the predominant class in the US in earlier decades ,having an estimated 75% of the total market .
Its sheer numbers of 16s that exist and great National and Continental events are worth conserving and assisting in as are several other brand regional classes and class national events though believe most others would prefer larger Formula group National and World events to eventually become standard practice for all racing, it being more integral with the principles and ideals of sport, as per ISAF rules of Yacht racing.
All Companies certainly have the right to promote and market their boats by brand and brand class . Conversely the same brand class mfg. should not assume the conflicting benifits of Formula race group organizations that welcome all .

All current brand oriented defined classes -particularly the classic ones with larger numbers can exist integrally within this Formula group concept for racing and the builder benifit from its partisipation. Accomodating class sailors wishes to race in CLASS or in class group is the ideal and proven best method to increase interest and partisipation in the sport as per the once huge popularity and dominence of Hobie class racing.
The transition from brand class oriented racing edicts and definitions of brand class catamaran types to one of L based Formula race groups is occurring incrementally each year.
Recognizing this ,promoting it , and organized integral L Formula race groups will make this ongoing transition possible sooner. This needs to be conceptualized for the current numerous Formula groups being formed to help promote a more organized less advisarial means of mutually benificial development .
The NAMSA organization is key , but without the support of numerous fractured groups and building a central organizational body to supplant current apparent severe problems it will not occur and the sport continue to run aground and erode on its current course.

The financial aspect is key , one element the Hobie class had was a large network of active race oriented boat dealer racing sailors supported by the mfg. -There were once 6 in MI alone ,--now reduced to one mono dingy oriented club who sells 2 H a year.
500 a year used to be sold from one local H-dealer.

The promotion of Formula oriented class boats of various types and builders needs to enact the same support policy of getting active racing sailors involved . Display boats at race events ,a parts supply available ,and information and brochures on boat tpes Formula classes and boat purchases made readily available as great interest is always created at sailing events. Also a list of existing used boats ,-and update modification packages available.
Many racing sailors could team with existing boat builders at their source or existing dealerships and work with them on a commision basis ,-often reducing any racing expences or becomming profittable.

Consideration for employment of staff personel in NAMSA to actively solicit sponsorship for the assistance and promotion of cat classes and numerous events possibley with sports marketing organizational input would be well worth added yearly dues. 100S of thousands of advertising dollars are potentially available for major sailing events -national and World Formula Championship events http://www.naf18.com/events04.htm races ,http://www.catsailor.com/Stories_Temp/LittleAmerCup04PR.htm -numerous distance races , 1000 mile race event -
http://www.catsailor.com/Tybee500/Atlantic1000PR_03.htm

The potential is limitless.

Current controversey of brand class racing edict and H class proponants mistakenly framed the discussion as a choise between H-Class racing and rated racing options.
If that is in fact the ONLY option , we may as well all buy a remaining H and be done with it.--It is not however.
The huge majority of sailors prefer and are oriented to CLASS racing . If catsailing is to make the transition from segmented brand only dwindling classes it must offer a better more inclusive potentially much larger class racing based alternative. Formula groups that include all brand types are the best alternative.

On improving a rating system for catamarans ,-Evan though Formula groups will increasingly become more popular and include larger numbers within L class groups,-a rating system for smaller diverse groups without sufficient number in class group will always be needed.
The rating system most integral and compatible with Formula groups based on the definitions and language of design measurement is ISAF http://www.schrs.com/schrsdiagrams.asp?id=boat
Using Portmouth numeric scale and theoretic comparative time to distance traveled is a better base for all rating systems to corespond with as time and distance measurements are fundamental. Ideally ISAF for cats -http://www.schrs.com/
and or Texel would convert its design measurement rating scale to corespond theoretically to comparitive time and distance traveled per Pn rating numeric scale range.
Using ISAF to establish base rating numbers , then combining the best elements of rating systems -ISAF TEXEL and tempered or slightly adjusted periodically by Pn actual timed race results would result in a superior rating system and be a more integral internationally .
Something more brilliant mathamaticians and statisical annalysis experts than I will ever be, to work out in their spare time .
comparison rating info http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/F16HP_ratings.html

In summery - The goal of >Formula classes in every L category to potentially include all catamaran design and promote new ones and development in similar design measurement race groups .

future goal >A central Catamaran racing organization per NAMSA to coordinate race groups -builders ,events, munisipalities, venues,sponsors ,to build on existing events ,etc, to mutally and benificially promote the sport .

future goal>Reaching out internationally with coresponding Formula race groups and compatable design measurement based rating ,though converted to P rating scale to relate time and distance comparisons for periodic improvements.Though the ultimate goal of class racing priority in Formula groups.

These are just observations and evolving concepts for added integral Formula Classes and ideas for discussion .
have fun
Carl
-

Last edited by sail6000; 02/15/04 08:37 PM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Suggestions for improving catamaran racing in N A [Re: sail6000] #29901
02/15/04 11:50 PM
02/15/04 11:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Here I go again... I should just shoot myself now but...

Carl,

I think you are shooting at the wrong issue here. It's not about the classes.

I am sure you will agree that local clubs host regattas for their members and regional colleagues. Each club is trying to get turnout AND maximize the fun racing for the event. They probably don't give a damn about the national implications of any descions they make on running the regatta. If they have a strong one design or formula group that wants to come racing.... they accomodate. If they have 10 types of boats... they accomodate. The problem is not so much classes or formula class and the rules of formula racing... its simply sheer numbers of sailors.

You need large numbers of racers so that everyone finds a level of competition that suits them AND enough other sailors at their level to enjoy the racing experience.

The other problem is that if you have 15 boats... 10 of them one design or formula.... When you split out the 10 and leave 5 in a seperate race... you will pretty much kill off the 5 boats in a short time. The competition that's left will quickly grow old and these racers... will fade away (Rarely... do they convert to a new boat).

The competition problem is the real problem.... Solve this one and our numbers will start to grow again. OCRA seems to have started to grow their fleet from the ashes of the last Hobie pogrom. Take a look at their solution.

Take Care
Mark

















crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Suggestions for improving catamaran racing in N A [Re: sail6000] #29902
02/16/04 09:24 AM
02/16/04 09:24 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 125
Cape Coral, FL
pete_pollard Offline
member
pete_pollard  Offline
member

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 125
Cape Coral, FL
There is also the problem of lack of access. In my home waters we have plenty of beaches but no way to get to them. The problem is so bad that I gave up beach cats all together, in favor of a boat that can be kept in a wet slip.

We need to find common ground, something that we can all agree on.


"Cat Fest Sailor" Pete in Cape Coral
Re: Suggestions for improving catamaran racing in N A [Re: pete_pollard] #29903
02/16/04 12:14 PM
02/16/04 12:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
old hand
sail6000  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Pete

Agree -
Lived in Cape Coral ,--some time ago -
We started a local fleet ,-in the 80s and had some excellent sailors - A number of us would travel to the Florida events and often win in class.
We used to sail off what was called locally
Bunch beach ,-near the causeway out to Sanibell and Captiva Island . It is most likely not there any longer due to growth in the area.
The budget resources and number of sailors was limited,
I obtained 4 large intertubes ,spray painted them with day glow orange spraypaint,-got some cement blocks from the job site and would set the course off the 18 and often serve as committee boat ,then race the course . Every one had a great time , great practise too.

It is a wonderfull place and area to sail ,-The sea life in that area of the Gulf is fantastic -Used to also hop on the 18 and sail down the coast to Naples , race with local mixed fleets there ,-then sail back up to Ft Myers.
Only possible on a fast cat

We used to also sail the river some nights and go to the waterfront restaurants and nightspots on the cats ,-
Tieing up on the dock in front ,-or beach if available.
great fun , never recieved a DWI on a cat {hick}
or ever ,---There must be areas that would welcome sailing craft left ,-either public or private .

NAMSA will be the central organization that represents sailors to help address these problems on several levels -
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=NAMSA

Last edited by sail6000; 02/16/04 12:29 PM.
Carl [Re: pete_pollard] #29904
02/16/04 12:46 PM
02/16/04 12:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 125
Cape Coral, FL
pete_pollard Offline
member
pete_pollard  Offline
member

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 125
Cape Coral, FL
I'm sure we must have met. You're kind of a big guy? Had a beard? I sailed a H16 at the time, mostly just drank beer !

Bunche Beach is still there, but you can't get to it! No parking!

I sail a Tiki 21 now (Wharram design), good solid design if not very thrilling!

Stay in touch! If you're in the area let me know.

By the way, I'll be in the Keys mid-April as a tag a long to the races that are scheduled. Why don't you get out of the snow and come on down!

One last thing. Do you know if anyone ever tried a "run whatcha brung, finish where you finish" format i.e. one start, one finish for all boats. When the slowest boat has completed the course, all others finish the lap they're on.

Last edited by pete_pollard; 02/16/04 12:53 PM.

"Cat Fest Sailor" Pete in Cape Coral
Re: Carl [Re: pete_pollard] #29905
02/16/04 02:31 PM
02/16/04 02:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
old hand
sail6000  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI

thanks Pete -
Will try to make it down for Ap in the Keys distance races ,-
sounds great ,-sitting here looking out the office window at a ft of snow and sub 0 temps early this A M .

The cruising cat sounds like fun .
Maybe time to start another local cat sailing fleet there ?
I,ll see if I can find the inter tubes
Hope to see you in Ap ,-good warm up for the Atlantic 1000-
and great to catch up on bunche beach area sailing .
fun times-
All the best
Carl

Re: Suggestions for improving catamaran racing in N A [Re: Mark Schneider] #29906
02/16/04 05:10 PM
02/16/04 05:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
old hand
sail6000  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI

Hi Mark
Good to hear from you ,-

We are basically talking about the same thing ,-the difference being how to define racing {classes}-
Which would be more benificial and prefered by catamaran sailors ?.

Pn rated high or low racing classes for all -or

Formula class groups in each Length category for all catamarans to race within .-

Both must be benificial to various boat builders and mfg. and conserve and promote their individual products and existing viable classes within , the Formula group concept achieves this by mainly ISAF definition of design measurement per each class .
Basics of Length Beam Weight Sail area with design measurement in L based race groups.

The P rating definition of class relies on brand class definitions as per example of H-class and H-only parts and sails AS BUILT PER MFG..or its not "class legal"
P rating reinforces the notion of brand only classes by definition , it is totally reliant on brand class concepts and rated brand class times.

Some then would assume P rating take the place of brand class racing it is reliant on for basic definition, this leads to a chicken or egg type arguement, not over which came first but rather which is the cause of decline in the sport or which will renue it, the only options under current conditions.
Neither one, seems to be the result over the last 2 decades.

It is time for more new Formula based race groups to be formed ,-my hope is we can conceptualize a broad all inclusive intergral mutually benificial theme to it with some intelligent pre planning and goal outlines to include all catamarans over time.

Modifying the N A rating system as outlined previously based per ISAF design measurement to establish all preliminary rating numbers ,-converted to numeric scale of theoretic time to distance traveled per Portmouth , then tempered or adjusted periodically per Porthmouth time rating correction factor would be more integral with Formula racing groups defined by ISAF type design measurement with clear definitions and standard measurement proceedures basically replacing time average prelim. rating and a page of one size fits all type modification factors.

The resulting condition of rated racing at local events and the imaginary provided 15 boat scenario suggests that "5 would be left out" ? then not return ,without scoring them all as PN rated class . -again a chicken or egg first opinion /arguement that,-- as per original designer requires a much more creative solution .

You also mentioned about local regional sailing organizations quote> " They probably don't give a damn about the national implications of any descions they make on running the regatta." <
hmm - Most sailors purchase a boat type ,-be it an A Class cat ,--18 ht ,--Formula 18 --H-Tiger F-18 --Nacra 20 --etc etc -with some expectation of class racing and if desired a regional ,national or world event to attend at the end of the race season, or at least the prospect of somday racing in a major sailing class event .

Local sailing organizations and clubs bring prestigue and membership into their oganization by hosting major class racing events --Like A Class worlds ,--for example
http://a-class.org.nz/photos_2004_worlds_on_the_water.htm
or Olympic trials for another.

The expanded Formula racing group categories in each Length and sub category would include all catamarans as outlined in the earlier post in 7 basic L race class groups
including production and experimental or home built boats to Formula class category rules outline ,--as per Formula 14s per example.
Formula 14 16 18 20 single h 18 - open development 18-20
and larger cat category , in each L ,and sub categories as needed to include all types. We are half way there now, why not outline and construct benificial Formula Class group racing coordinated per NAMSA and in accord with ISAF definitions to include all over time as goal .

ISAF defines boat classes in two basic categories -
B.1.1. Production boats

A production boat belongs to a registered class or to a registered type.
The qualification of registered class or registered type requires the following conditions:
To respect the safety requirements of the government having jurisdiction;
To produce a minimum of 10 boats;{built in existance}
To have published class rules which include data as follows: (effective for new types after 01/06/2001)


WS - Minimum sailing weight.
CM - Maximum mainsail area.
VLM - Maximum VLM.
CJ - Maximum Jib Area.
VLJ - Maximum VLJ.
CSPI - Maximum Spinnaker area.
CB - Maximum Board area.
VLB - Maximum Board depth below hulls.

B.1.2. Non-production or experimental boats

A non-production boat is any boat which does not belong to a registered class or to a registered type. A boat built as a registered boat but which is modified in such way that she contravenes her class rules will be considered as a non-production boat.
end ISAF boat class definition

Does rated racing of any type really compare to class racing?-Will high low Pn rated racing ever hope to replace the great class racing Hobie once provided having 75% of the total market in past decades with huge numbers , much less ever really attract H sailors to switch over and race p handicap . Add the numerous others that purchase a class boat with the intent of good class racing of fairly equal similar L boats and the prefernce of sailors and organizational structure to increase partisipation become clear.

ISAF states ->>Whilst it is accepted that the ideal Rating system is one which uses historical results, a Portsmouth Yardstick type system, it has proved difficult to obtain sufficient data to validate such a system around the World. The SCHRS enables new designs to be rated quickly, and allows International regattas to take place with a common handicapping system for many types of Catamaran.

The purpose of these regulations are to enable trampoline multihulls of various types to race together on a comparative basis, and to protect the interests of the owners in keeping development under control without hindering further research.

It is recognized that one-design and level rating are generally a more realistic test of sailing skill. For events organised under these regulations, organizing authorities may consider separate arrangements for one-design or level rating classes present in sufficient numbers.

http://www.schrs.com/

Take care Mark , oh ya
you mentioned OCRA - GREAT GROUP .
Many of us regionally sailed extensively in the former now defunct H Div 10 , throughout Ohio Mi Wis Ill and Canada, Many of the Mystere 4,3 sailors regionally will be involved and seem to support the new Formula 14 class wholeheartedly.--
They are already planning the first F-14 class event at the Spring Fever regatta !!
A precursor of several more Formula L group classes on the way , with its fun creative intent ,interest and enthusiasm it brings ,-to most casual observers it seems clearly the future direction of cat sailing





Re: Suggestions for improving catamaran racing in N A [Re: sail6000] #29907
02/19/04 11:25 AM
02/19/04 11:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 138
California
Sailing Pro Shop Offline
member
Sailing Pro Shop  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 138
California
It's simple really. Make sure the racing is put on for fun and in a competitive but not moniacal fassion. Make the party at least as good as the racing and make sure the event is kept clean and with a feeling of "family" and you'll find Dad's and Mom's a lot more willing to make it a family sport again.

Have a crusiers division where you only have to complete 60% of the races and gag trophies are given. (but good ones)



Mark Michaelsen http://www.sailingproshop.com (800) 354-7245
Re: Suggestions [Re: Sailing Pro Shop] #29908
02/19/04 01:29 PM
02/19/04 01:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
old hand
sail6000  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Mark

Agree completely -

Catamaran sailing is so many different things and classes and groups , and seperate varied types of interests spread out across a vast continent ,it is difficult to get a total clear picture much less try to organize it all in a constructive mutually benificial way for all .
It is as they say like "trying to herd cats"

It just gets down to numerous good people involved each adding their own unique contribution .

question ? Where do catsailors find a complete list of Calif ,or as the new Governator says Caleefornia multihull events . Been to San Diego a couple times in the last year , my sister keeps an extra getaway artist flat in the downtown area by the civic center hardly used , I love it there, and would like to plan some times to visit and possibly charter a spin cat or race locally, as I,m sure other catsailors would also .

On the suggestions -for N A .

The changing conditions observed over decades is the once dominant Hobie class which until mid 80s had 75% of the total cat market which boomed due to its innovative fun colorfull catamarans ,new at that time.
All other cats and class types split up the remaining 25% of the total beachcat market in N A .

Numbers have declined and here in the midwest and MI the H div 10 is defunct -non existant ,-that is from previously having 300 boat regional chapionship events in the mid 80S and one local boat dealer selling 500 boats a year.
Now there is only one H dealer that is mainly a dingy oriented sailing club that sells very few a year.

When you read about the current H edict of H only boats applied in an area where they are non existant ,it makes you chuckle a little , then wonder what the is going on.

Class racing is the ideal and why H was so popular along with offering the fun party comradery aspect and fantasic natl. and world championship events and vacation type venues.-Hope they always continue for H-16s .

What we seem to be moving towards now to replace the H class 75% dominance is now with the fewer total numbers more and more sailing organizations and groups that include all types of catamaran for fun sailing and short races and for organized regatta racing also now Formula race groups that follow this philosophy.
All listed in the previous post {sorry about the length}

We need boat builders and dealers to support sailing organizations and racing events ,its important ,-and we need a stronger central organizational structure per NAMSA to be cognisent of the positive aspects of class racing , conserve those ,and become comperable to what H once was by supporting this concept of Formula classes with a National/-International basis as standard practise for the sport, already well on the way in N A. Cordination between the various Formula groups , existing classes ,and numerous sailing organizations across N A very important also , though as they say ,--all politics are local.

NAMSA has to become economically viable , A full time staff to organize and travel and meet in support of sailing class groups ,organizations ,builders and boat dealers ,and to work the sports marketing -sponsorship of events is imortant and hopefully will occur over time.
This will go a long way .-Most sports have a central organizational body that encourages partisipation and membership voting on issues and rulings.

The move from total brand orientation and control to one of inclusive sailing organizations and race groups requires updating and modifying not only our classes ,but our defintions and understanding of class groups , just like boat classes themselves ,unless they are periodically updated and modified they become outdated and less used.

THE DEFINITION of these design measurement based groups and classes is important conceptually , If we continue to define boats as only H or N or whichever brand we are ever reliant on the basic language and definition of brand and lack of knowledge and basic understanding or comprehension of what a design measurement is and how this forms race groups and Formula race groups .

Believe the sport of catamaran racing will benifit Hobie -N and all involved much more if it can be organized in this overall race group theme as per Formula 18 as one model that includes all types and brands to race in larger groups ,this concept expanded to each Length category with varied rules outlines particular to practical design limitations and goal in each Length or type race group category . An integral design measurement based rating system for all cats would help this transition and really help all formula type and development type classes become the predominant forms and eventually standard practise for the sport.

Outlined the concept of using ISAF rating to base all catamarans on , but converting it to the numeric scale that P rating uses of theoretic time to distance traveled . We should suggest all rating systems aspire to this so all types of rating systems can relate to one another directly and be monitored by a P rating time comparison type basis.
Actual cat rating numbers would change little ,and race events like area qualifiers Alter Cup etc and local racing much the same as per event and area sailing organizations preference .-The difference being a better more integral rating system using both design measurement and tempered or adjusted per a yardstick type P system . Both systems or evan an improved rating system can only average out extremely different craft in very different varied conditions ,-thus it is always flawed unfairly favoring some and discriminating against other types .
Thus the preference and need for similar design measurement formula race groups and a design measurement rating that encourages this to occur.

Formula clases for distance racing for example that open up modification options to things like better mainsail reef systems ,-better rudder systems ,-and allow more freedom for the indivual to set up their boat to suit rather than brand class edicts towards design with very different criteria in mind not suited to the intent of ocean racing is one example of its benifits .

Hope to see some Formula 18s in the Tybee Atlantic 1000 and Formula 16s and 20s class in future years .
Very pleased to see a new F-14 class as well.

Last edited by sail6000; 02/19/04 03:03 PM.
Re: Suggestions for improving catamaran racing in N A [Re: Sailing Pro Shop] #29909
02/19/04 01:30 PM
02/19/04 01:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 101
chesapeake bay
davidn Offline
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davidn  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 101
chesapeake bay
It is more work, but I would add that a kid's class/course should be included. Make it for Waves and other simple boats with an age limit. Have a small course close to shore and let kids come to shore between "races" and exchange crews, get instruction, take breaks. We adults who race really enjoy the racing and want to immerse ourselves in it. (For me its a great way to focus totally on the racing/sailing and get all my work issues put aside for a while.) However, if we don't develop an enthusiasm for cat sailing/racing with our kids, we won't have the next generation involved in our sport. I think that's already happened to some extent.

My $.02
David
H20


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