This was a question posed to me in a recent email, and since I know there are alot of folks out there interested in the class but kinda wondering the same thing, I thought I'd post my response. Feel free to chime in if you have something to add...

"I'm a real boat lover, and there's alot to love with all these boats.

Where to find an F16? Well, you've got 4 options:

1. Buy a new F16 from one of the core designer/builders. Their web sites can all be found here:

http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/F16HP_boat_show.html

All of the manufacturers produce extremely high quality products that surpass, in my experience, anything available from the "mass" producers. Before I purchased my boat I made numerous phone calls directly to the boat designers and builders, who were all very willing and helpful to speak with. Since getting my boat I have pestered the designer/builder multiple times for tips, etc and they have always been very supportive and responsive. I have a Taipan. I have heard similar things about the designers/builders of the Stealth, Spitfire, and Blade.

2. Buy one of the above on the used market--none available right now in the US because of high demand and low supply; when one changes hands it is rarely on the market long and often is never advertised but sells via word of mouth. So this isn't a great option unless you get lucky.

3. Get an easy to find boat for cheap and convert it, eg Nacra 5.0 (slightly too long but would be accepted into the class on the basis of its length not giving unfair advantage), Hobie 16, Prindle 16, etc. You'd be at a competetive disadvantage with this approach, but it would be a quick way to get out on the water and would help build F16 fleets quickly. In reality, the best sailors would still probably win--a hot Hobie 16 skipper with a big rig plus spinnaker (per F16 rules) would surely beat me on my Taipan, even though I have the "better" boat. Heck, I always thought my Nacra 5.0 would be a real blast with a fat top main and a spinnaker.

4. Build your own--try out your naval architect skills or get the readily available Taipan or Blade plans. Tortured marine ply Taipans have a reputation for being extremely light, stiff and competitive boats! All rigging, crossbeams, etc are easy to get from various sources.

If you've seen A-cats you have an idea about the technology and light weight nature of this class of cats. But they are distinctly more robust and have spinnakers. I've personally sailed two of the core F16s (Taipan and Stealth), so I could give you some feedback on the different nature of each boat.

Call me anytime and we'll go sailing! I've never had as much fun as sailing a cat with a spinnaker. There is also a Taipan F16 in San Jose--nice guy and I'm sure he'd show you his boat. He and I will both be at the Camellia Cup regatta at Folsom Lake the first weekend in April.

The F16s offer amazing technology and speed for a very reasonable price. In fact, when I was boat shopping I discovered that the F16s, although significantly lighter, more high tech, more versatile, and arguably higher quality, were less expensive than the Hobie Fx-1 or Inter 17R (both also cool boats, though).

Here's my phone #s--call me anytime if you would like get more details or try my Taipan. ** Warning--you'll want one :-) **

------

Hope this info helps."

Hi there,
If you are looking in Europe, your best bet is the Spitfire.
Not only an extremely well built machine, but sales outstrip other 16 footers by far, allowing a one design race circuit before the F16 circuit really takes off.
In fact, the F16HP circuit in the UK is very light if not non-existent at the moment, but the Spitfire sees 20 or so boats at a big event already.

Failing that you could join me, one of only two in Scotland!

regards
Chris
SNECCA
ACotland and North of England Cat Class Association
www.snecca.org.uk

>>If you are looking in Europe, your best bet is the Spitfire.

That is a bit of a hyperbole.

I'm trully sorry but I have to be confrontationally honest here.

Despite my best efforts (also contacting the Spitfire association and the single Dutch owner) I've failed to attract a single Spitfire to the Dutch Coast Challenge; this while of the 9 boats listed now in total (10 is cut off limit) we see 2 Taipans, 1 one-off F16, 5 Stealth F16's, 1 Blade F16 and 1 available Stealth charter.

F16's outnumber Spitfires in all nations except UK, Ireland and France and even in UK the Spitfire lead is not that significant. The world and also Europe is a lot bigger than these three nations. Certainly big enough to disproof :"Sales outstrip by far, before F16 takes off, non-existant". Although, I will fully underwrite that the Spitfire class is very active in the UK (or rather England) and has seen good attendence on their events. Although we can argue over "20 boats or so".

With regard to F16 taking off. To late, that has already happened. There were events in US, Aus, South Africa in 2003 and for 2004 we'll see (and have seen already) more events in these area's as well as South Asia (20 taipans with spis sold over a period of 16 months) as well as the Netherlands. More good news is coming, waiting for the final clearance to come through.

Granted we have had no 20 boats event yet, that honour is Spitfires, but I rather see several simultanious events of 5-7 boats in area's spread out over 5 continents than a single 20 boat event in one area. For obvious reasons.

In the worse case we loose UK but win everywhere else.

I think that would be a trade-off we're willing to make.

(I warned that this post would be confrontational, but in this honesty is kindness and note that my focus is to be inclusive and not to be rude or anything)


Having said this, I will repeat and underline what F16 class said from the beginning and what I've said to Reg personally and have wrote to the Spitfire association. As the F16 class we strive for inclusiveness and are looking to include the Spitfire design in a combined 16 foot racing/sailing scene. This is not because we have to, and I'm really not exaggerating here, but because we want to and because the F16 class was founded on the this ideal. Also there is no point in competiting with eachoher and if an design is as good as the owners claim it is than entering it in a more open format shouldn't scare them.

We will continue in this inclusive stance and hope to welcome Spitfire sailors. If not than we wish the Spitfire class every succes that may be in the pipeline and when a crew names one-design sailing as an important consideration be sure to expect me to refer them to the Spitfire class. I've refered sailors to other classes in the past, so this is no empty promise.

With equal candor I can say that no-one who contacted me about fast 16 footers ever named one-design (OD) sailing as an important consideration. The F18 class has thoroughly put away with the concept of one-design sailing; certainly the more restricted single manufacturer one-design sailing (SMOD). I personally believe that (SMOD) is a thing of the past and that OD is surviving by virtue of the Tornado and a few smaller classes that allow sailors to buy aftermarket sails and gear within reasonable limits.

But back to inclusiveness.

If you like Chris, than the 10th spot in the Dutch Coast Challenge can be yours. I much rather join hands with Spitfire (as with all other high performance 16 footers) and present a clear and well organised 16 foot alternative to sailors than get into a zero sum game with Spitfire. The latter, more confrontational, setup will end in one class of boats taking a dive, slowing down the 16 foot potential and evetntually disenfrancize a group of (wrong) boat owners we should charish. I don't see the point in that. Especially when looking at the Spitfire - F16 comparison. These boats are so similar in many respects that it is almost foolish to compete with eachother anywhere but on the water. Moreso because Formula sailing and one-design sailing are not mutually exclusive. Take a look at the Hobie Tiger setup. Afterall, as found in handicapped sailing, the better crew nearly always wins anyway. In the much more comparable Spitfire - F16 comparison this should even be more so. Afterally ; 95 % of the sailors do this thing for enjoyment and fun, how better to achieve this than by cooperating. I'm certainly not going to post on the Spitfire forums that the F16 is the better option to sailors than the Spitfire, if you catch my drift here. If anything I will invite them to join us and have fun. Notice the difference in approach ?

Last but not least, small builders like AHPC, Stealth, Dynautic, Swell catamarans need to understand their position in the catamaran scene. Despite what we think we are SMALL when compared to Hobie and PC. By joining forces we can better stand up to the big boys. Because rest assured , as soon as any of us start to move in on a significant portion of the market a swift and powerful reaction will follow. F16 is already seeing that in one area.

So Chris, please familiarize yourself more with the F16 setup and concept and maybe join us in the DCC (24 july - 1 aug). Please also note that Spitfire is losing and has lost the plot outside of UK, Ireland and Northern France. Please note that for several years now the F16's and foundation design Taipan have outnumbered the Spitfires in all other European nations. Don't simply assume that the UK situation can be projected onto other area's. having said this I think the Stealth is doing alright in the UK as well. Certainly the numbers actually sold in the UK do tend to make me believe that. But maybe more important of all is that there are simply no one-design Spitfire races outside of the UK and Carnac. What is the point of having :"... a one design race circuit before the F16 takes off" when one has to migrate to the UK to actually be able to sail in a Spitfire OD race once or twice a year while the F16's lets you race in events near to where you life and stimulates improving your personal skills by racing anything, anywhere at anytime without installing the mental block that everybody must sail the same design to make sailing fun.

Our hand is reached out to you ....

Wouter

So who's got the other one then? You haven't conned A & M into getting one after Mike and I spent months trying to Stealthify them have you?

G

I know there are a number of Stealths in the UK now. Who is sailing faster--the Spitfires or the Stealths? Also, how many Stealths and Spitfires are sailing sloop (two-up) and how many uni (one-up).

Just curious.

Fine question, Eric, I`d love to hear from some UK sailors. They seem to be in the best position to really be the first country to get the F16 class moving in a big way, yet theyr`e surprisingly quiet. Could be theyr`e active, but aren`t telling ?
With two well-supported classes (Stealth & Spitfire)they could hold a F16 UK champs and attract a fairly large number of competitors.
Aah, but then it`s winter over there (by our standards, it`s ALWAYS winter in the UK ! )

Cheers
Steve

Being in Ireland, I should not be speaking for my neighbours, but I will start the ball rolling and then they can come along and contradict me.

I believe that there are many more Spitfires than Stealths.
The Spitfires are better organised, with a proper racing circuit, a Nationals and Europeans.
I also believe that the Spitfire sailors as a group are some of the top cat sailors in the UK and give the F18s a run for their money. They have come from just about all the existing classes, Dart 18, Hurricane5.9, F18, Hobie 16 etc. Many of the events on the circuit are open events, sailed with other classes. Apart from John Pierce, you don't see the Stealth sailors featuring in the top positions, as you do the Spitfire sailors. The Spitfires have good numbers at events and get good racing against each other. They feel that they do not need to race F16.

This next bit is just my opinion.
The Dart Hawk class started very well. Many boats were sold all accross Europe, some of the top sailors were sailing them and they won many events. Then F18 took off, other classes developed. One rival paid all the top sailors they could find to sail and develop their cat. This cat started winning events and, of course people bought them. The Hawk builder could not afford to keep up, and few new boats were sold, even though it has been upgraded and is as fast as any of the F18s.
The Spitfire is in the same position. It is a very exciting "One Design" Class, selling well, and I believe that most of the sailors think that it should stay that way.

I do not know of any Spitfire sailors who race "one up", the class rules would not allow it. I am sure that some sail uni for fun on light wind days.
The only Stealth I raced against sailed uni. He was a good sailor (he has been on the podium with other classes)and the Stealth was fast, but his spinnaker was launched from a bag on the deck and even though the wind was light, launching and retrieving slowed him down. He was ahead of me many times, but I finished ahead of him on the water in two out of three races. His SCHRS handicap number also put him down the fleet. http://www.catamaran.ie/results/2002/InlandResult.htm

Hi Dermot,
thanks for reply, keeps those in faraway places in the loop as to what`s going on in other places.
You said "His SCHRS handicap number also put him down the fleet." - I checked ISAF SCHRS, Stealth is 1.08, Stealth "R" is 1.03, Spitfire is 1.04.
There`s not much between Spitfire & Stealth R on paper, good sailing skills could overcome the minor difference.
Interesting to note the only difference between Stealth & Stealth R on the ISAF listing is jib area & luff length, and daggerboard length & area, all other specs are identical. Is this correct ? Seems odd that there is a 5 point difference between them with only these changes. Then Stealth web-site shows Stealth F16 at approx. 104kg, which I don`t see on SCHRS. Would it be fair to say that the Spitfires are faster than Stealth (as SCHRS confirms), but perhaps only a few Stealth F16`s have been sold to date, so no real comparison can be made yet ?
You also wrote : "Apart from John Pierce, you don't see the Stealth sailors featuring in the top positions, as you do the Spitfire sailors." Could this be because John is on a Stealth F16, others sail older models ?
I`m only asking to get a better picture of what happens at a racing level in the UK. A bit confusing when Stealth has 3 different but similar models, not knowing which one is being referred to. Perhaps John Pierce could answer this one ?
This could be one reason Spitfire is more successful, the design remains constant ensuring good OD fleets.
You also wrote :"The Spitfires have good numbers at events and get good racing against each other. They feel that they do not need to race F16." - Is this the general consensus within the class ? Interesting analogy regarding the Dart Hawk, I think you imply the boat would have had a better chance of succeeding as a class if it had not entered the Formula 18 class. IMO this would never be the case - If another manufacturer pays top sailors to sail their products, their boat will in all likelihood win at major open regattas or long-distance races, which is where most other sailors get exposed to them. Even if the Dart Hawk had never raced against the "other boat", the public perception would eventually be that the "other boat" is faster. In fact, avoidance of F18 would have probably brought an earlier demise - public perception (right or wrong)would have been that they are too afraid to go head-to head with other F18 designs, therefore perceived to be slower. Just hope that Spitfire doesn`t keep it`s head in the sand when F16 takes off. Looking at the promo video - wow, what a great boat, pity not that affordable outside UK, especially not at 12:1 currency exchange !

Cheers
Steve

The original Stealth featured a very small jib, after a few months we had owners asking for more performance, so we brought out the Stealth R, this had a bigger jib and longer daggerboards, we offered the upgrade to all existing owners at trade price, they all took us up on this, so all Stealths are now Stealth R's, although they can enter handicap races with the old set-up, and indeed do, but only when there is strong wind. When the F16 class was concieved we decided to change the boat to fully optimise the rules, thus the F16 was born. The main differences between the F16 and the R, are that the F16 is 20cm wider and some jib area was moved to the mainsail.

I have not been active with the 16 since 2001, when we won the Uk cat racing champs, with a Stealth R, 2002 we were busy changing the 16 and in 2003 we were busy with the F18HT and moving to Wales.

I have not raced the F16 properly since we bought it out, however we will be racing one this year and hope to repeat our 2001 effort.

I can tell you that the Stealth R rated 102 in 2001, (there was a carbon mast penalty then), and we found that it performed to this rating well against all boats, Spitfires included. I can also tell you that the F16 rates at 102 now, and that it is significantly faster than the old model.

My opinions of our boat and the F16 class are of course very slightly biased, as we sell them, as are Dermot's of the Spitfire as he sells them.
There are 32 Stealths in the UK, mainly Stealth R's with 6 of them F16s, unforunately hardly any of them travel to events, mainly club sailing.

Because, as I have already said that the Spitfire sailors, both UK and French, are top class, they will be able to compete evenly against other F 16 cats for the moment.
I do not believe that the class or builder will change the cat to bring it up to the F16 rating.

[quote] My opinions of our boat and the F16 class are of course very slightly biased, as we sell them, as are Dermot's of the Spitfire as he sells them. [quote]

Hi John, I was trying not to talk about the actual boats. I was just trying to give the facts about the sailors and the way the classes were developing. Andy's boat speed was very fast and the Stealth was much admired by everyone. I think that he would say that we made him very welcome and I know that we would love to see him, yourself or any other Stealth sailors at our events. We have also had Dart 18 and Hurricane 5.9 sailors over many times. Even the Dutch Dart 18 sailors have made the trip.
We have had one problem with visitors which we Irish cannot understand - for some reason they seem to drink too much and always go home in terrible condition.

The funny thing is that quite a few sailors here (Netherlands) regard the dart hawk as a very good design and at least on a par with the Tiger. Most see the exchange rate of years past and the wrong marketing of Dart as the causes for the demise of the Hawk. I think these are probably the main cause over the fact that Hobie bought all the good sailors away.

A group of us still believe that the Hawk has live in it with a few mods to bring it up to speed with regard to the newer F18's. Simple stuff like selftacker and snuffer, and some mods in the sail cut. The hulls and beams are good.

It is also generally believed that F18 would have grew and dominated anyway with or without the Dart Hawk in it. In fact the net sales of the Hawk are believed to have increase compare to potential net sales if it were kept out of the F18.

I would personally rather have a Hawk then a Inter 18/ nacra F18 or Tiger. I would only put Cirrus F18, Hunter F18 and Capricorn F18 over the Hawk at this time. All others (7 out of 11) are on a equal footing or inferiour to an updated Hawk.

Wouter

>>There`s not much between Spitfire & Stealth R on paper, good sailing skills could overcome the minor difference.

Actually there is neglectable difference. 1 % = 36 seconds in a hour based on a simplified performance prediction formula. I say this means "equal" for all practical uses.


>>> Then Stealth web-site shows Stealth F16 at approx. 104kg, which I don`t see on SCHRS.

It is on the SCHRS site, but under the name Formula 16, of course. Schrs = 1.02

>>Would it be fair to say that the Spitfires are faster than Stealth (as SCHRS confirms),

Crews maybe but boats are hardly different in speed performance. Again 1 % on theoretical grounds withthe edge to the Stealth R and F16.


>>You also wrote :"The Spitfires have good numbers at events and get good racing against each other. They feel that they do not need to race F16." - Is this the general consensus within the class ? I

I don't know about the "whole" class but it is definately true that OD is their main focus. About needing another class or not, well, that was never expressed nor do I think that the Spitfire class needs anything. Statements expressed by us were only invites to join us in a common setup or to come and race in F16 sanctioned events. How the other side intepretates that is beyond my scope.

Nevertheless I personally hope to see the 10th DCC slot being occupied by a Spitfire.

Wouter

>>Steve, If you check the SCHRS numbers, you will see that Formula 16 has a one up,0.98 and two up 1.02 handicap number. When Andy raced over here he told us that his number, singlehanded, was 0.99. So that's what he raced on.


But the SCHRS rating is completely off the mark when comparing 1-up and 2-up setups with eachother. From data comparing the Taipan 2-up and 1-up setups we know this to be the case. F16 1-up = significantly slower than 0.98. Texel is off as well although less so. Equality between 2-up and 1-up F16 is what we were after and that is what is about the case on the limited data we have. There is a significant change that 1-up F16 is slightly slower than the 2-up F16, but not by more than 1 or 2%. The difference is smaller than between the Taipan 1-up and 2-up setups as the ration between jib and main is different in the F16. This was done to make both setup equal performant.

In short 0.98 and 0.99 are (way) off as a rating under SCHRS for 1-up 1,01 or 1.02 is far more realistic.


>>I do not believe that the class or builder will change the cat to bring it up to the F16 rating.


Nobody is asking Reg to or even has asked him to do that in the past. Only statements made were invites to race the Spitfire as is against the F16's either on a fun basis or a more serious basis.

If I were the designer I wouldn't consider changing the design. I know it is good as it is; the rest is sailor skills and the nerve to compete in a more open format. The F16 class has the nerve to see a Spitfire win a F16 event, we don't believe that to be bad for the F16 class. I will just show that the F16 sailors need to work some more on their skills. I'm quite sure some of us F16's will get beaten by H16's as well if not to mention by a Prindle 15 with Hans Primowees on baord in one of the future Round Texels. Sailor ability is just such a big(ger) part of the overall result.

Regards,

Wouter

Hi Wouter, Dermot, John & all others interested :

Wouter, what I meant when I wrote "There`s not much between Spitfire & Stealth R on paper, good sailing skills could overcome the minor difference." is exactly that : the boats are so even on paper that they could both be regarded as equal speed potential, so could be raced against eachother as per the F16 ideal i.e first in wins.
I find it a little surprising that the Spitfire class has "barely heard of F16" and that they don`t really see the need to be associated with the class, as when I look at the list of boats that are included in the F16 class by the Grandfather clause, the Spitfire & Taipan are listed as being included. I would have thought that this would imply their co-operation & inclusion in the class, including it`s inception & development, which seems to be contrary to what is happening.
Note that I says "seems to be" as this is what I am concluding from other poster`s opinions or viewpoints, so my perspective could be wrong - the earth is curved, so I can`t see what`s happening over there, and rely on info from those closer to the action.

What I see happening in the long term in cat-sailing, especially with the predicted (ISAF/Texel rating) performance of the F16 being so close to F18, is that as cat-sailing continues to decline world-wide, one-design classes will fade slowly, or be superceded by the latest designs as they appear. What will succeed is a Formula-based all-inclusive class, to the point where if F16 & F18 have equal ratings, they may one day become one formula class. I could be wrong here, perhaps One-design classes will get stronger & formula racing will die out, who can tell ?
The disadvantage of one-design classes is that as they are introduced into the market they grow rapidly, normally at the expense of older o/d classes, and have a lifespan only as long as it takes to introduce a more attractive / faster / more organised o/d class, whereas formula rating classes ensure a longer lifespan of o/d classes that operate within the formula framework, since new boats introduced into the class will, by design limitations of the formula, have very similar if not equal performance.
This can only be good for both parties.
Regarding changing the Spitfire to suit F16 class rules, there is no need at all to do so, since the ratings are so close. The boat`s additional sail area is offset by the additional weight, so the performance should be close anyway, no need to change anything. In fact, it would be very interesting to see how the "heavy with more horsepower" option compares with the "lighter with less sail area" option in real terms.

Cheers
Steve

>>I find it a little surprising that the Spitfire class has "barely heard of F16"

They heard of it all right. I had contact with some and even talked to Reg White on the phone a while back. Send eamil to the class associations and the Dutch dealot mentioned F16 and the possible role Spitfire could play in it when I send him a mail asking about a F16 related topic.

>>and that they don`t really see the need to be associated with the class,

That is something different. Many feel that an SMOD setup will give them a better shot at the future. Nothing wrong with that.

>>as when I look at the list of boats that are included in the F16 class by the Grandfather clause, the Spitfire & Taipan are listed as being included. I would have thought that this would imply their co-operation & inclusion in the class, including it`s inception & development, which seems to be contrary to what is happening.

Not really : AHPC and Taipan sailors were definately involved from the beginning (AHPC soon after the initial beginning). Spitfire sailors (Dermot himself for example) were so too and there has been communication about the Grandfather status of the Spitfire between myself and Reg. We even appeared in a Yacht and Yachting article together.

But mostly Spitfires and F16's walked seperate, although often parallel, paths in the past. I know they don't object to being included in the F16 framework even though they concentrate on SMOD sailing. I think this setup suits us both at this time.

I agree fully on your prediction for the future, Steve. Mostly because I see how several builders are reacting to it and a few key players are prefering formula because that allows them to continiously be creative with their product and thus continue to sell their product.

I shall make no secret of the fact that even sailors from succesful SMOD classes are very interested or have switched to formula classes (few examples in the F16 case). Certainly in Europe the name of the game is F18 and everything is racing F18's either on other F18's or on Handicap. The F18's are slowly developing over time. Slow enough to prevent breackthroughs and arms races and keep investments under control but developping nevertheless. This is always to the disadvantage of the SMOD classes as they keep their relative handicaps even though the main benchmark is continiously improving.

Of course OD classes have a better positio as they can at least keep up with the improvements in sailcut and running gear.

Of course the Mosquito class is proving another good example that a class need to modernize from time to time (Tornado is another). This class is really building up interest with the new spi setup.

Wouter