Rick
[color:"blue"] [/color] I am a Japanese wave fan. I enjoyed my wave.
I read your message that Jib kit does not work well, we can not push any luff tention on it.

I have a jib kit and have the same opinion with you.
A blue blade jib in super wave website is same as my blade jib that Hobie Cat sells ? or your new arrangement blade jib ?

I think my blade jib that I bought from Hobie Cat is very small and does not work well.
I will try to make triangle wire arrangement to push any luff tention.

One more question, as wave HP, what is HP?

Thanks
Koba

HP is for High Performance.
I did have a blade jib, but don't think it will work. I am presently working up a rig for the F14 Class that will add a larger jib that is self-tacking and roller-furling, and a spinnaker that is roller-furling.

WIll come with a trapeze as well. All can be taken off to sail as a stock Wave.

Hope you can make the Wave Worlds. Having some Japanese competitors ought to add to the flavor of the event.

Rick

[quote]I am presently working up a rig for the F14 Class that will add a larger jib that is self-tacking.

Rick, what progress have you made with this new jib for the F14 and Wave and when do you think you'll have them available?

THe design is there, but now that I am in Ohio it may slow down the process a bit. I was hoping to have something together before Bay Week to race against the Mystere boats, but don't see that happening yet.
Probably be in the fall when I get back to Key Largo and get with Calvert again.
Rick

Rick,
Can you let us know of your thinking regarding your design work? What do you have in mind at the moment? How do you expect it will work?

The rig I want to use for the F14 Class would have a long bow sprit (around 10'), and place the forestay much farther forward than it's present position.
I would then have a roller furling spinnaker (Hooter), and a roller furling jib (fairly large) that would be self-tacking.
With this rig you would have plenty of power upwind (trapeze should be used) in normal winds; in very light winds you could use the Hooter upwind; and in heavy air just furl and sail with the main.
Off the wind there would be two nice slots and should create plenty of speed.
In theory I believe the Wave Platform will do better than the H14 because it has so much more buoyancy. But who knows?

See ya,
Rick

Rick,
How do you envisage the new forestay being attached further forward. especially on the Wave?
Will it be available to be used as a seperate unit to the bowsprit/screacher package for the Wave?
How much larger will the new Jib be than the stock Wave unit?

The new forestay would attach to the bow sprit several feet ahead of the present forestay.
A spreader bar between the bows will be necessary to keep the hulls from pinching in from the pull from the bow sprit.
This would all have to be packaged along with the Hooter -- still a work in progress that I had hoped would happen before going north for the summer, but alas, it will probably not happen until this fall.
The Wave does not have a jib that works, and the one that is available is very small and does not work -- can't get any luff tension on it.
Rick

Rick

When in the Fall do you think you'll be back to work on this project?
Can you let us know of your progress and development of the new setup as you move it along? I'm sure we would all like to know [pics as well] how its progressing?

Sure can keep you informed.
I will heading south to Pensacola for the Wave NAs on the weekend of the 24th and on to Key Largo from there after the races.
Then I will be back close to Calverts where we can work on the project.
Basically, I intend to use a 10' bow sprit, use the Hobie bow spreader to keep the hulls from coming together, and then replace the present halyard with a halyard that is attach about half way out the bow sprit. That is where I intend to hank on the roller furling jib. I want to set it up as self-tacking.
Then I will use the roller furling Hooter at the end of the bow sprit and sheet from the aft part of the boat (That I am already doing -- you can see the whole story at Wave Class Site on the Super Wave)
That will be a pretty powerful rig on a platform that can handle a lot of buoyancy.

However, you won't be able to hold the boat down in winds over 12 mph, so I intend to have a trapeze as well.
Since the tiller is in front of the mainsheet, a standard tiller extension will not work -- you would constantly be fighting to get it and you through during each tack and jibe.
So, I will use a long, one-piece tiller extension that goes out both sides of the boat. It will be bent up so it does not hit the water on the leeward side.

Anyway, that is the plan.

Thanks for asking,
Rick

Since the tiller is in front of the mainsheet, a standard tiller extension will not work -- you would constantly be fighting to get it and you through during each tack and jibe.
So, I will use a long, one-piece tiller extension that goes out both sides of the boat. It will be bent up so it does not hit the water on the leeward side.

[/quote]

Rick,
Your thoughts on revising the tiller cross arm setup to a standard type ie, behind the mainsheet.
Then wouldn't a regular tiller extension be possible and easier to use!!!?
Your comments!!!

Well,
You would have to cut the rudder arms down to do so. And then it wouldn't be Wave Class legal. Or you could buy a new set of rudders to be legal.
Howver, lots cheaper and easier with the single tiller extension -- that is what the Sharks use and it works well.
Rick

Rich

Are you back "On Deck" yet with this project?

RicK,

Sorry about the TYPO!!!

I really have not had time.., spent the summer at Put-in-Bay and had no place to try out things.

Also, it appears that the hoopla about a F14 Class has gone away.., the reason for adding all the sail area.
And, I have done really well with the Wave with Hooter only. Of course, if the wind pipes up too much, then I would love to have the self tacking jib.

This summer I was able to stay with the Mystere 4.3 class upwind and downwind most of the time.

I jwould love to continue working on the idea, however.
Rick

Rick said : The Wave does not have a jib that works, and the one that is available is very small and does not work -- can't get any luff tension on it.

Hello Rick,
I have a new Wave with the jib kit and the traveler. What do you mean when you say you cannot get any luff tension on the jib? Don't you simply pull it up with the jib halyard to any tension you want, and then cleat it off?

My bigger problem is with the jib sheets catching on the mast cleats and the base of the mast with every tack. Do you have a fix for that?

Thanks,

Loren

For a jib to work properly, the jib luff must be very tight in most wind conditions -- although perhaps not so much on reaches.
Since the jib attaches to an thin aluminum bar between the hulls, you cannot get enough tension. If you get the tension you really need, it will only be for a short time -- the cross bar will break.., or bend so much that you will lose the luff tension.
To tension a jib you need more than to pull it and cleat it. You should use at least a 2:1 or 3:1 tensioner.
Check it out. Next time you are sailing up wind, look at the luff of the jib. It will be sagging way off to leeward. If the luff looks arced, it is not working.
if the luff looks almost as straight as the mast, it is working.
To stop the catching, duct tape the cleats, and then put a bungee cord running from the mast to each side of the boat as a preventer.
Good luck,
Rick

Thanks Rick. This is a great forum, and I have also gotten a ton of information from your book "Catamaran Racing for the 90's.

Loren

Note from Mary:
Since the Wave doesn't have diamond wires, in order to have that bungee cord to prevent your jib sheets from catching, you will probably have to install a small eye strap on the front of the mast, maybe 18 inches or more up from the bottom, to run the bungee cord through. I would tie it off at the eye strap with a half-hitch or something, and then run each end of the bungee down to each end of the main beam and tie off there, where there is an opening in the trampoline at each end of the beam.

If that still doesn't work, you can come up with various creative variations on the same theme. And let us all know what works best.

Good idea Mary. I am embarrassed to see that I have not given you the credit that is due you in Catamaran Racing for the 90's. Your contribution was excellent and enjoyable.

Loren

I got in a nice 4 hour sail today in very light winds of 4-6 mph. I used a bungee cord to keep the jib sheets from tangling at the mast base and that worked out very well. I wrapped the bungee around the mast one time at the top cleat. It did not seem to affect the mast rotation at all.

My problem was that the Wave does not seem to point very well when using the jib. At least in light air. I had to maneuver out of a 140 foot wide channel that is about 1/4 mile in length in order to get to the open water of the lake, and it was straight into the wind. After 30 frustrating minutes where I mostly reached back and forth, I dropped the jib and had no problem working my way upwind.

I did get to have quite a few pleasant conversations with the crews that were working on each side of the docks as they cheered me on.

It seems the mast on the Wave is quite a bit forward and is placed almost like a cat boat. My Wave certainly seems to point higher and tack better without the jib. I have read in several different books that the jib is an aid to tacking on catamarans, so this has caught me a bit by surprise. I would like to hear Rick and Mary's opinion on this.

I am not disappointed at all with my Wave. I am just beginning to question the usefulness of the jib.

Loren

As posted over at the Hobie Cat forums...

Yes, back winding a jib can help you tack, but a "uni-rig" main-only always points higher. The jib disturbs the air flow over the main when pointing very high. With the jib, you have to have proper luff tension and be careful about sheet tension. Over sheeting will stall both sails.

As I have said many times, the optional jib simply does not work in light air, moderate air, heavy air, or any kind of air. The reason is you cannot get enough tension on the jib luff.
The tack of the jib is attached to the crossbar between the bows. The cross bar does prevent the bows from toeing in, but when you try to exert enough pressure on the halyard to tension the jib luff, the crossbar will simply bend, and if enough tension is applied, it will break.
If you are going to have a jib, you must use the crossbar and then have very low bridle wires strung so the tack location is very close to the crossbar. Then you can exert a lot of luff tension and it should work.
However, the sail is very small and will not gratify you much, I feel certain.
If you want some speed, get a Hooter.
http://store.catsailor.com/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=jmnrkomnk0
They work. And despite the large size of the Hooter, you can sail upwind as close as other Waves sailing unirig.., and much, much faster.
After the wind gets much over 12mph, however, you will have trouble holding it down. Next move is to rig a trapeze.
Check out the article on Hooters and all the links within the article at http://www.catsailor.com/update_hooter.html
Good luck,
Rick

Mary:

My eyestrap on 17 is 3 foot up the mast and works great on reacher sheets.

Doug

Blade? Looks more like a ribbon to me. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

He said "reacher."

I'm trying to understand the physics of why the drawbacks associated with the blade jib would not also apply to the hooter, but possibly to a greater degree.
With the extra load would not the luff on the hooter be similarly difficult to tension? And with the bow sprit seemingly braced on the crossbar but overhanging the point of securement, isn't it likely to more easily bend the crossbar when applying the tension? Or is the tension problem simply compensated for by the sheer power of the hooter?
Thanks
Norm
(new member)

Here is how the bow sprit is mounted. A pole extends from the main beam above the cross bar and is held down by non-stretch wire or rope attached at the end of the pole and back to bow of each hull.
And from the bow of each hull line or cable goes to the mid pole for a bit more security.
All cables or lines are tightly secured.
The bowsprit is NOT attached to the crossbar.
In that way the luff load can be very taut.

If you tied the bowsprit to the crossbar, you would indeed bend it and the bow sprit. No matter how tight you tie the bowsprit, it will initially rise a bit, but will get to a point that allows the luff tension.

My first attempt at the Hooter was without the bow spreader bar in a 21-mile upwind race to Put-in-Bay. I started off well by staying ahead of the H16s and one TheMightyHobie18, but soon the boat got slower and slower, and the luff was sagging off more and more.
It was then I noticed the bows were starting to curve inward. I quickly took down the Hooter and sailed bald the rest of the way.
And upon arrival immediately ordered the spreader bar. Now everything works wonderfully.
I have been unsuccessfully trying to get a longer pole, a bigger Hooter and bigger self-tacking jib set up, but each time has met with a small disaster. Been to the drawing board a number of times on this one. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hope this explains it.
Rick

I agree the luff tension on the stock Wave jib is a problem, but I think a bigger problem is that it is too close to the mast.

I played with attachment points using the spin pole and found once you get about 2 ft in front of the bow, the stock jib really starts pulling. With the attach point 4 ft in front of the bow, the effect of the jib is all out of proportion to it's size.

I have also tried racing the Wave with a stock jib against dinghies and found, the stock jib just plain makes the boat slower

Carl,
I'm glad you have already been experimenting with that. As soon as Rick has some time (more later than sooner), he has been planning to do the same thing: put the tack of the jib forward on the spinnaker pole. Good to hear it works so well.

So far I have tried a Wave jib, Hobie 16 Jib, NACRA ? jib, a light air pentex Hooter, and a couple of non spin Tornado jib's. The best overall has been then the Tornado jib followed by the H16. The hooter is best on a reach and downwind but it is doesn't point high enough going upwind. The Tornado jib gives a little bit going downwind but has speed and angle going upwind.

What modifications did you have make to be able to use the Tornado jib?

Hi Carl,
So far I find the Hooter works on all points of sail until the wind gets up too high. I have been able to outpoint Hobie 16s and go almost as fast.
I think the trick is you really have to sheet hard and have a lot of luff tension. And then keep the inside telltales jumping a bit on the Hooter.
Usually, I unfurl and leave it out.., and furl when I tack.
Rick