I started off with the underlying assumption that the marketing guys at Performance and Hoby already know why not to make a 2-3k starter cat, and tried to "figger" what they know but I don't - -
<br>
<br>Basic Assumption: Many of us think that such a boat would sell well, and we do think that you could make it "just good enough" to be a good "ad" for cats in general, without causing very many of us to sell our hot expensive cats, nor to just buy a starter instead of our next new boat. Hypothetically, the starter could be sold fairly basic, like the stock Wave, for example, sans traveler, jib, traps. Possibly the sail could even be shipped "stock" and "optional" - - I've even heard suggestions that you could ship the "starter" with removable plugs in the hulls, allowing board closets to be added. The stock mast has no diamonds, but maybe lugs to add some later. Attachment points for downhaul blocks, maybe you sell a rotator kit, with templates for mounting the blocks to the beam, maybe you put lugs in there, too. Kinda a "Lego Boat" Price it all so a boat-plus-all-the-upgrades is slightly or even outrageously more expensive than what we're now paying for a new boat with all the trimmings.
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<br>As a major manufacturer, you could hope to sell such a boat cheap, without cutting into your "expensive boat" business in the short run, and with a reasonably good hope of building up catsailing in general, with a concomitant medium/long term increase in your high end product line.
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<br>***Except one problem***
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<br>How do you sell a 3k starter boat that is so "basic" that you won't lose your high end customers to it, and still nice enough to compete with a used boat? Ah, there's the rub.
<br>
<br>So, I thought some more….
<br>If all those lovely used old boats are so desirable, why isn't the sport growing, why are those lovely old cats languishing in backyards all over the world? The usual reasons cited, in my neighborhood, anyway, are that windsurfing attracts people who like to go fast w/out a motor, jetskis get some "hot dogs", too, and the baby-boomers, the hula-hooping, one-fad-after-another generation, haven't been copied by their children yet,. The "baby boom echo" generation are still under 10 yrs. old.
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<br>Well here's another possible reason: Maybe, people just don't see cheap cats in sporting goods behemoths, and so don't see them as "glamorous" ??? I don't know anything about the rest of the world, but I've not seen a bricks-and-morter cat dealer, nor a cat of any kind in a sporting goods shop, on Long Island NY. There's a niche for your "starter boat" How cool would a cat look, hanging in the open air of a Sports Authority, with catsailing video playing on the floor itself? No real "footprint" on the store's "floor space" so profit-to-square-foot ratio should be acceptable. Plus, gigantic impact on "coolness" of store.
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<br>Here's another possible idea - - why not support the used boat market a little, somehow? I'm vague about this one, partly because I don't know what's being done out there already. Where I think I see a value here, to the sport in general, is that newbies don't know how easy and rewarding and cheap it is to get into catsailing. If the big manufacturers can't justify a "starter boat" for good sound risk-rewards or marketing considerations, like competition from used boats, why not raise the profile of used boats? Non - cat sailers don't see used boat dealers (in this area anyway) with clean yards, shiny boats with nice price stickers, 1 year warrantees, etc. like a used car lot has.
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<br>What if the Manufacturers created standards for acceptance into a "5 star used boat dealer" program: Dealers maintain certain standards, in exchange for, say, promotional "coop" money. "Coop" advertising money is where the Manufacturer pays part of the dealer's advertising bills, so long as the ad contains the manufacturer's logo. I dunno, maybe even some help on costs of refurbishment? Don't dealers already get a discount on parts? Maybe, some sort of accountability for used rehabs could allow for some more leeway, there. Maybe manufacturer could participate in the larger transaction, floating the cost of refurb against proceeds from sale later, while offering this only on "trade ins" which were acquired by the dealer as part of a new boat sail? This way the manufacturer would encourage the dealer to take the used boat market on in a more aggressive way, actively looking for "trade-ins" ??? Probably crazy, huh?
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<br>I bet most of this is old news to the old timers on this board, and they've got good solid reasons why it isn't in play now. Like, they tried it and it failed, or there's an obvious reason it wouldn't work, etc. I'm just hoping to start some discussion here.
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<br>Ed Norris
<br><br><br>

Ed:
<br>
<br>At least you are asking the questions and then pondering solutions... When I have a few more minutes I'll respond in full to your thoughts but I did want to thank you for taking the time and energy to get the ball rolling on what should be a healthy discussion for the manufacturers to follow.
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<br>MM
<br>www,sailingproshop.com<br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

Ed, You are right by saying that people do not see old cheap boats as "glamourous". An old H16 with faded colors and bad sails is not very exciting even if this can be a good opportunity to start.
<br>I think that the market of new boats is not active enough to have a lot of tempting shiny boats at an affordable price to tempt a newcomer (as we can see on a car dealer parking lot). I see some revival in the practice and the renewal of the fleets by existing sailors (I am considering bying a new Tiger) will put on the market may be some attracting machines.
<br>I agree with you also when you say that there is no more flashy dealers on the highways like before. Here, in New Jersey, even if there are a lot of clubs and sailors, nobody is selling beach cats anymore since a long time: not a profitable business or what?
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<br>For me, sailing can only grow, because it carries so much positive values. I saw the explosion of public interest for sailing in France a few years ago and I cannot imagine that it will not be the same here. We will see...<br><br>

From a man who's countrymen are often cited as the masters of the maxi-multihulls, I'm encouraged by your optimism.
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<br>Ed<br><br>

I have a few more minutes now and will try to give a more complete answer to your question.
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<br>Price is not the constraining issue with regard to boat sales. One need only look at the mastercraft or ski nautique (ski boats) dealers at the boat show to see proof of this. At a recent boat show the mastercraft dealer sold 28 boats in four days. The average cost of the boat show special was $28,800 per boat with trailer. The boat eats $120 in fuel for a four hour trip to the lake and people are using them about two days a month on average. The maintenance costs are about $350 a year for the first five years for service etc.
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<br>The Grand Banks trawlers are sold out in many models for at least a year. They start at $132,000. This isn't the budget range I operate in but clearly there are lots of buyers if the product is meeting a consumer demand.
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<br>With regard to being a dealer. If there were actually a demand for catamarans such that it would support the necessary overhead require to properly support the sport then you would see dealerships all over the place. The bad news is there isn't enough demand to substantiate spending the capital to put enough inventory in stock to start up a dealership. The manufacturer's requirements are so steep relative to the demand that you are seeing old dealers go out of business and no one with any business sense would try to establish a new dealership unless the overall environment changes substantially.
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<br>When I say the "environment" I mean the overall market forces that allow or prohibit individuals to be able to afford the boat, store the boat and have time and water access with which to use the boat. The former are hardly constraints as even at $17,000 the INTER 20 or Hobie Fox are quite a bit cheaper than the comparable powerboat and we have already shown there are ample buyers for the power boats.
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<br>The latter problems of access and available discretionary time are the real demons when you are trying to explain the overall decline of the sport of sailing and particularly catamaran sailing. This is especially true here in the Los Angeles area where the available launch ramps are now almost completely empty. They are cheap to use yet hardly anyone does. I am as guilty as anyone. I have to split my time between kids soccer, an 18 month old and my wife and business. That takes about 6 days a week. That means I have one day a week left to use a boat. If I have to drive (15 minutes each way so 30 minutes) to a remote storage area (cities here prevent storing them on your own property if they are visible to the street and with 8 feet between houses here a back yard is rare.)and then trailer to a ramp. Drag it (10 minutes) out across 100 yards of beach. Do a complete set up and tear down. (70 minutes if I hustle [35 minutes up and 35 down]) Sail for three hours and then tear it down, hose it off, drop it back off and get home in time for dinner.
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<br>It's a stretch to get it all done and still have fun doing it.
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<br>IMHO the problems for this sport's decline in popularity are:
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<br>Lack of free time.
<br>Lack of easy storage and set up locations.
<br>Family demographics have changed.
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<br>There is nothing I have ever done that comes close to how much fun I have working in this business but if we ever tried to make a profitable venture on catamaran sailing alone we would have been out of business ten years ago...
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<br>There is room for growth again for the manufacturers as the older hobies are finally falling by the wayside. There is no reason for a builder to concentrate on a market that simply isn't there and that is why you don't see a lot of marketing here in the states.
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<br>The bulk of Performance Catamarans business is in Europe so that is where they focus their efforts. Hobie Cat USA has done a fine job of staying in business by adequately providing parts at a reasonable markup to their dealers and that is why you see Hobie dealers hanging on. Hobie Cat also does a fine job of maintaining their dealer network by only selling through dealers and not factory direct. They understand that dealerships help maintain the local fleets and that keeps their boat sales moving and the parts business alive.
<br>
<br>I keep hearing over and over that there needs to be more advertising by the manufacturers. The reality of the business model is that a company who wants to maximize it's efforts must:
<br>
<br>Identify a demand or need in the market that already exists.
<br>Design and manufacture a product that meets that need within the confines of market forces (price).
<br>Market that product to the consumers who are likely to buy the product.
<br>Establish a retail dealer network that offers sales and information as well as service for that product and provide enough margin for the dealer to be profitable.
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<br>This isn't like a car dealership folks. The car dealerships all make their money on the service department. Everyone who sails seems to want to do their own work on the boats (at least most people) which is fine but it means there must be enough profit in the sales of parts and accessories to maintain a dealership. Enter: West Marine and other chain stores that discount. The consumer wants the best deal so they will shop wherever they can get a better deal. If you look around the US you will find that most small boat dealers have gone out of business where there is a West Marine or similar close by. Putting a catamaran in a West Marine though won't get them sold. Just ask SUNFISH/ LASER who tried to put their boats in west Marine stores only to find that their sale declined by 40% in those areas where there was previously a specialized dealer.
<br>
<br>It's a tough situation out there. We have been successful recently because we can offer new and used parts at competitive prices and we offer a full range of gear including proprietary parts which are unavailable to most stores. This was our best year since 1991 even with the terrorist attacks that effectively shut down sales for a couple of weeks. We are pretty much the only sailing store in the greater Los Angeles area and there are 17 million people here. Others have opened and then closed soon after as it became apparent that this is a tough business. There is one good dealer in San Diego, CA. There are a couple in the Bay area and that is about it. Kinda' scary actually.
<br>
<br>We diversified into big boat equipment and support several years ago and that has made a big difference in our profitability and has allowed us to continue selling equipment for catamarans at competitive prices. we could never do it without this diversification and again, we are the only folks here in Los Angeles doing catamarans to any degree.
<br>
<br>We are once again pondering the idea of selling the boats themselves but we are concerned about the market and it's ability to support this venture. We welcome your replies and thoughts on the subject so that we can add them to the concepts already being considered with regard to this venture.
<br>
<br>Thank you in advance for your well thought out replies.
<br>
<br>Best regards,
<br>
<br>Mark A. Michaelsen ~MM~
<br>SPS Website: http://www.sailingproshop.com
<br>Small Craft Advisories Sailing Centers
<br>1244 Pacific Coast Highway
<br>Seal Beach, Ca 90740
<br>(562) 594-8749 Voice
<br>(562) 594-0208 FAX
<br>(800) 354-7245 Order Line
<br>(714) 238-0925 International Voice Mail/Pager
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>Mark A. Michaelsen ~MM~
<br>1244 Pacific Coast Highway
<br>(562) 594-8749 Voice
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>

MM,
<br>
<br>I think your post describes the situation well. Catamaran sailing is not the only sport/hobby/thing that is suffering in this way. Bicycling (another hobby of mine) has been going through a similar hard times, with local dealers disappearing, prices going up and such.
<br>
<br>David Rogers
<br><br><br>

Part of the problem with Cat sailing and other sports is many participants have become rather “hard core”. Racers see their fleets shrinking and we need to get some new blood… I had a conversation with a fellow at a recent regatta. His point was that for many of the racers, this was their life. To be competitive and successful consumes a huge amount of time. The travel to the races, and the high overhead (set-up time) take their toll. He went on to say many serious racers end up divorced. I think the target market is the young adults, however without any previous exposure to cats or sailing, it would be hard to see an early 20’s adult taking on this challenge. They might get curious, but to make the jump from non-sailor to hard core is quite a leap. Cats can be intimidating. Some people are just not going to trap out with the shute up in 20Kts. I believe we need to try to encourage some sort of middle ground. More non-competitive gatherings to get boats out, get people to bring their friends, wives and kids. Poker runs, crew swaps, backward sailing, frisbee tag and yes have a real race, but call it a “practice” race or a “beginner” race or a “tuning” race. Help with the rigging; share the company of those with a common interest. Swap boats, do some tuning. It is especially important for the experienced people to attend and make a real effort to help the new folks. Talk to them like they are real people and listen. Realize these people are the future of sailing. When I first started racing, the top guys took a real interest in the new folks. I got lapped in my first (two lap) race. The junior national champion was right there when I landing looking my boat over. We became pretty good friends and spent the summer match racing. I’m sure I learned a lot more than he did! I agree with Mike M, I don’t think it’s the money. If people think it’s worth it they will find the money. It would be nice to get shiny boats to new sailors for 3K. I have helped several people find and work with used boats and it is hard to get new people excited about a 20 year old boat!! In the end it is people that make sailing. I’ve done my share of solo sailing, because I love it that much, but it is more fun with other cats! <br><br>

Thanks for taking the time to write that up Mark. You bring up some excellent points. One point that I would like to see some people's opinions on is the Europe vs. US issue. I've heard numerous times that Performance and Hobie have been more successful in Europe than in the US and I've always wondered what the reasons are. Some possible reasons could be:
<br>
<br> 1) Better sailing venues.
<br> 2) Tighter population centers allows for better representation at national events.
<br> 3) Laws allow for easier ownership and usage.
<br> 4) Cultural differences.
<br>
<br> Personally, I think it is almost entirely the last one. The sports that have increased in popularity over the last 10 years in the US have done so by being louder, faster, brighter and more Xtreme. This is evident by increased interest in NASCAR, dragsters, X-Games, etc. The second factor that helps determine popularity in the US is TV time. If you can't put the sport in front of the kids in a hip/cool/loud way, they will not even know that it exists.
<br>
<br> By contrast, my limited exposure to European citizens has taught me that they have much more of an appreciation for sports that require finesse, intelligence, and artistic ability. These are obviously traits that would cause someone to take an interest in sailing.
<br> Please don't take offense at either of the broad, sterotypical assumptions that I've made. There are numerous exceptions in both places. Any opinions from people that have spent time sailing on multiple continents?
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<br>Tim Dry
<br>Minden, NV<br><br>

Tim and others:
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<br>Having lived in Europe I can say with absolute confidence that sailing gets better media coverage there than it ever has or will here. With the exception of Italy there really is no PRO BASKETBALL, no US RULES FOOTBALL, anywhere, No PRO BASEBALL. There is some hockey in Eastern and Northern Europe. Of course there is the all dominating sport of soccer and rugby and cricket are played in a few countries but there is room for sailing.
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<br>It's also VERY*** hard to get a permit to operate a motor vessel of any sort in most of Europe and impossible and frankly rude to even suggest a PWC on an inland lake.
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<br>It's also very political to get water usage in many countries so lake use permits for even sailing can be difficult to obtain if you are not sailing the right kind of boat.
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<br>People still want to get on the water and sailboats are an avenue to do this in Europe.
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<br>Their work schedules are also a little different over there. In the US you are lucky to get a whole week vacation if you are new at a firm and "MAYBE" two weeks after a decade of service at a single firm. In Europe, much of the continent takes of "AUGUST." Yes, the whole month.
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<br>There are certainly cultural differences but the ability to have a catamaran club on the beach with full facilities in Holland all summer where there is no trailering, the water is close and the enthusiasm for sailing is intoxicating when the air temp hits 60'F. (A warm day there in the Spring, late Spring).
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<br>Again, I think it is more about available time and water access than anything else.
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<br>Just my $328.08 worth
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<br>Mark A. Michaelsen ~MM~
<br>SPS Website: http://www.sailingproshop.com
<br>Small Craft Advisories Sailing Centers
<br>1244 Pacific Coast Highway
<br>Seal Beach, Ca 90740
<br>(562) 594-8749 Voice
<br>(562) 594-0208 FAX
<br>(800) 354-7245 Order Line
<br>(714) 238-0925 International Voice Mail/Pager
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br><br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

I think Both mark and Tim got it right. Tim is on the mark with point 4 and "an appreciation for sports that require finesse, intelligence, and artistic ability."
<br>
<br>mark is on the mark (no pun <= ) ) with
<br>
<br>-1- It's also VERY*** hard to get a permit to operate a motor vessel of any sort in most of Europe and impossible and frankly rude to even suggest a PWC on an inland lake.
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<br>Especially the rude part. Many consider a sailboat on a bofy of water to be the pinnicle of taste and beauty while a PWC makes people reach for their antique hail gun above the stove. It is, as te English say, "Not done"
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<br>-2- the ability to have a catamaran club on the beach with full facilities in Holland all summer where there is no trailering, the water is close and the enthusiasm for sailing is intoxicating when the air temp hits 60'F
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<br>This certainly helps. I remember early april when the first sailors are on the beach ready to go. And the laughter when they (you) come back and take nice hot shower in the club building and have to really look hard for IT ! (wink wink)
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<br>But one thing that hasn't been coined is the simple fact that sailing has a special status here. It does have status in the USA to but mostly because it indicates wealth and standing. Here in the EU it doesn't really matter what kind of motorboard you have (unless it is a riva) a sailboat will win more appreciation. It has some romantism about it.
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<br>Wouter
<br><br><br>

You left out the fact that in most of Europe, you start a job with 8 (yes, after seven and before nine) weeks of vacation. I bet I could coax a few more crew candidates out to do a week's worth of sailing in Florida if we had an equivalent vacation schedule. <br><br>[color:blue][b]Jake
<br>[color:blue][b]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
<br>[color:blue][b]Hobie 18 (???)

The Wave is a really cheap boat to produce. What could be cheaper, or is the Wave the $3000 that costs $?
<br>For all their marketing skills, Hobie is being perceived by many in an ill light. Perception is all that matters in marketing. Following an other thread, forget the arguments of NAHCA, the fact is public perception of Hobie is at an all time negative...fix it.
<br>A Hobie16 is an expensive boat to fabricate.<br><br>

Interesting to hear the different points of view from the different continents, so thanks!
<br>
<br>Thought I would chuck in my thoughts on the Australian scene, as I have observed the decline of the sport here.
<br>
<br>First point to make is that much of the fleets that I sailed in when I was a kid (monos & a little bit of cats) were kids of parents who had started sailing in the post war dinghy boom- cheap home made one-design boats that hit the water in thousands. Mirrors, herons, etc. (Since then the fleets have shrunk and shrunk. I think this is at least in part because the boats became more complex, expensive and it was just harder to 'keep up' if you wanted to be competitive. It is interesting to see the new mono designs eat each other up, while classes like the heron here in aus make a bit of a comeback)
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<br>I think this provided the background for the cat boom in the 70's and 80's- a vaguely sailing literate public saw a cheap way to jump into the sport in the shape of the hobies and maricats etc. Mostly 14 footers that were fun and not too intimidating for the novice. Since that initial period we have gradually gotten more expensive and bigger and faster- now if you want to start in a 14 you almost have to sail alone around behind all the bigger boats- not very inviting! So the same goes for the cats as for the monos; those not going the 'whole hog' get left behind and end up dropping off. cf the thousands of 14ft cats sitting in backyards doing squat. (Exactly the same thing has happened to windsurfing here- when I was wave sailing in the 80's there was apparently 40 to 50 shops here in Sydney selling parts/ boards etc. Now there are two. It got more and more complex and the boards got shorter and the thing just evolved itself back onto the fringes).
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<br>As i reread the above, it is all a bit rambly, but I think there are a few valid obsevations... but what to do? I'm outta time, so might come back... but I believe the answer lies with a focus on clubs, not classes and dealers (though imp), a focus on junior sailing (the future, this is where the strong mono fleets come from, and a focus outside SMOD (single manufacturer one design) racing. One design, yes, but with open rules re sailmaker, parts etc...makes sailing cheaper as there is competition. (Having said that, H16 remains one of the only entry type boats you can but that has a decent fleet etc here in aus, so is a valuable boat for sailing here.)
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<br>Just some thoughts, hope they provoke thought.
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<br><br><br>

Wouter<br><br>

here is my view (from Southern Germany):
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<br>PWCs are not allowed on any lake, motor boats are not allowed on most, you need a registration, a driver's license, engines must fulfil very strict emission requirements.
<br>
<br>No need to register a cat, no license required, no restrictions where/how to store the boat on your property (you can even leave it on a public parking place if you like). You can reach most sailing events within4 hrs, it is a 30 min. drive to our club.
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<br>Plenty of lakes to sail in our area, our club is at a lake of 10 sqkm, with 4 clubs in total at that lake. We have 45 cats at our club, new club house, usage of launching facilities is free for everyone by law, but there is no need to use the concrete ramps, there is plenty of grass and a sand beach. Personal parking place for your boat, the area has a fence and a gate. 50 m paved road from the area to the water.
<br>Cats have the advantage here that due to shifty winds they are more comfortable to sail (skiffs don't work at all), cats make great swimming platforms in Summer for the families.
<br>Families come to the lake on weekends, there is plenty to do for everyone, swim, go cycling, beach volleyball, sail.
<br>Usually in Germany we have 6 weeks holidays per year, the first 6 months on a new job are restricted. Yes, most people take their holidays in Summer (but you don't have to).
<br>
<br>Perfect? Not really, the biggest problem is the availability of wind, sometimes you have to spend much of the weekend sitting there, waiting for a nice breeze. I think this is also the reason why many of the boats do not see the water too often, because you can't actually "plan" when to go sailing.
<br>
<br><br><br>

perhaps it's industry specific? I've hired three technicians from Germany, Belgium, and the U.K. and that's been pretty much standard for a mobile machine technician (considerably less so in the U.K.).<br><br>[color:blue][b]Jake
<br>[color:blue][b]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
<br>[color:blue][b]Hobie 18 (???)

There are many important factors behind the EU/USA differential, cited in this thread. Such factors seem durable, i.e. they've always existed, or for a very long time.
<br>
<br>But your post addresses the points which are salient to my original post!!! Why is the sport declining in the US; not why is EU more likely to be a sailing kinda place.
<br>
<br>Trust an Aussie to get the point. (One of your fellow Aussie's is staying with us for a year - we're very impressed - can you tell?)
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<br>So, in light of GE's observations, would an "entry level" but upgradeable cat provide that "inrush" of "vaguely sailing literate" types, who could then upgrade slowly?
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<br>Or would "flashier" marketing/support of used boats do that? (In the event the marketing analisys described so ably by Mr. MIchaelson proves that used boats would eat into the market for starters too much)
<br>Let's have one or the other, and get our neighbors off the beach!
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<br>Ed<br><br>

Well it is easier here to get part-time jobs, standard is 40 hours a week with a fix ratio is holiday coming out at 200 to 250 hours. Many workers however negociate extra benefits like 36 hour work week or even 32 hour works weeks and save up the time.
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<br>Personally I'm a IT engineer and do 24 hour guard shifts every 3 weeks and I get two days extra pay OR holiday hours whit each guard duty week. I save them up and go to Greece or something to sail. I'm sure USA is not so flexible in the standard workhours.
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<br>Wouter<br><br>

And another thing....
<br>howzabout the manufacturers tossing a meazly thousand or two a year into a pool to hire a decent PR firm to write AND distribute press releases to the general local media, (print and electronic) about EVERY organized Regatta, with stock boat pix, boilerplate writeups etc.
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<br>I run 9 local newspapers all of which are fifteen minutes from the water - I got squat, zippo, nada PR when the HOBY continentals were here last year
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<br>"International Championship Sailing Comes to Long Island" woulda looked great.
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<br>Ed<br><br>

This is a very interesting discussion and thought I might throw in my two cense since i'm a first year catsailor (been sailing all my life though).
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<br>I really think Mark hit it on the head when he mentioned the time element. Catsailing is can be a very time consuming sport. (trailering the boat, stepping the mast, rigging, etc...) I truly think the key to making the sport grow lies with making it more accesible to the general public. This country needs more clubs with direct access to the water. The reason I got into cats was that it was the MOST accesible way to get back into sailing and to own my own boat. This is only possible because I live near one of the few clubs in the country that have space to live the boat on the beach and have storage year round. Combine this with the relatively low cost of used cats (in comparison to other boats) and it really was the cheapest and easiest way to sail my own boat. So i think the real problem is, especially with the increase in real estate values, how do we get more clubs like this?? Once you figure that out, the demad required to support more dealers will come. Just my thoughts...
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<br>Good Sailing
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<br>Todd Berget<br><br>