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Tybee500 Reflections... #33532
05/20/04 04:16 PM
05/20/04 04:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Jake  Offline OP
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Quote
Jake,

Now that you've had time to rest, I have a few questions. were you glad when the race was over? Would you have gone on (time and money permitting)? i saw you guys when you came in to Hollywood and you were pretty tired from the incident with the rudder. Did the exhaustion get progressively worse each day? What would you say was the hardest thing you had to deal with on a daily basis both Physically and mentally? The first time I got out on the wire at the beggining of this winter (in this same ocean) I couldn't believe the feeling. It was awsome! but about 30 seconds into the experience my butt hit a wave and I was sent flying and spinning back into the rudder. I thought it was hillarious and couldn't stop laughing! Did you guys have any moments like that where you just lost it or was the mood throughout the race more intense because of exhaustion or because of the work you may bd doing aboard?

take care .
(Oops! I guess this is food for another thread)

--------------------
Fred Furze
Hobie 18


Fred asked these questions in the Atlantic 1000 thread - so I broke it out here.

I was glad when the race was over simply because the last slide up on the beach into Tybee had been the culmination of 6 months of hard work. I was glad that we were done racing and while I think that maybe I could have carried on it would have seriously been pushing my limits - However, after the day we had on Wednesday, I was wondering how anyone could every sail 1000 miles. I will do the whole 1000 one day. I hope to continue building Team Seacats and eventually do the whole 1000 miles.

Racing the last three days was gorgeous and dreamy. Incredible steady breezes and relatively calm seas. We had no problems getting on the boat each morning to race in these conditions. However, day #3, Wednesday, where we shredded our spinnaker and broke our spin pole, was draining both physically and mentally. The stuffing really hurt (my leg is STILL swollen!) and it took an incredible amount of energy to recover from the two capsizes with spin up. It was hard to get back on the boat the next day and it truly wasn't until the following Friday that we really felt recovered. We were feeling terrific about our good showing on Thursday until we ran into poor 'ol Bill at the finish line too. It was tough to overcome that event mentally as well. We're elated that he is perfectly OK and while we weren't the only ones to have made a mistake in the situation - we still felt like A$$es to have made the evening news in that manner. We were tired at the conclusion of the other days but after a little rest and dinner we felt pretty good and were raring to go again the next mornings. We both have been training physically since January and although I had lost 18lbs and gained about 30% more strength, I wish I had done more. I was nauseous from exertion on two occasions. You can do this and survive pretty easily at my (or slightly less) physical level but to be competitive, you MUST be in top shape.

We had our funny moments - once while the Miami skyline was just coming into view the waves were swiping my feet away from me on the trapeze. I had both a fore and aft chicken line attached (which BTW, greatly reduces personal energy consumption) and the result was me spinning around my trap line like a kid on a tire swing. We were laughing our butts off until the third time got me so hard it about knocked me senseless when my head hit the hull. The mood on the boat, except for the last part of Wednesday, was very jovial. We would sing, sometimes even over the howling wind and waves, (no whistling - that's bad luck) stuff like "Kung Foo Fighting", "Mr. Roboto", and once on the way to Tybee we even broken into "Brass Monkey" (I was doing the horn sounds). I'll have to broaden my repertoire for next time!

In reflection, I’m very satisfied with how the race went. Richard and Cary ran an awesome ground crew and David and I didn’t have to concern ourselves with much after racing. The guys could have used an extra hand on the beach and we could have done some things differently on the water to save us a lot of agony but for a first shot at racing like this and with this incredible lot of sailors, we feel very good about it. At least for me, I am three times the sailor than before this event started. I’ll certainly never have to think twice about going out on a white-capping lake again!

Last edited by Jake; 05/20/04 04:35 PM.

Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tybee500 Reflections... [Re: Jake] #33533
05/20/04 08:49 PM
05/20/04 08:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
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Would I ever do it again? Not this week, maybe next, my left Butt Cheek still hurts! Jake you left out the hour long discussion of what we were hungry for, Mexican Food! Power bars suck! Well not really, but they sure dont taste like a big plate of Mexican food.....
I have to say that Jake was an excellent crew, probably even saving my life when he cut me loose from the hiking strap on a capsize when it had wrapped my foot up so tight we couldnt even get my shoe off. As I dangled there with the boat on its side, and continuing to turtle, it was a pretty helpless feeling knowing in just a matter of of a minute or so the boat would be on top of me and my head would be under water. Even though I had a knife on me, Im not sure I could have contorted myself enough to cut the strap while under water, but Jake did.
The trip was tiring, but rewarding, and I too became a better sailor because of it.
Here are my observations and suggestions for any other amateur teams that are thinking about doing this race.
1 Start training now.
2 Start preparing your boat now, replace anything that may even show the least bit of wear. Im serious, this was a brutal race on equipment, have spare everything! We made the "mistake" of putting on all the go fast suff but neglected a few small, cheap worn parts, and it cost us.
Prepare your boat!!!!!!

3 Get yourself a good sponsor, or start raising money now, you'll need it.

4 Get a good ground crew, at least 3 people. One manager who can handle money, and the rest of the crew. A rigger, a mechanic(fiberglass and such), and then a couple of hot babes in bikinis a la Team Key Sailing! They dont do much for you, but they distract all the other teams!

5 Start racing in a fleet of good sailors now, and travel and race like crazy. The Florida I20 boys are the rock stars, and they showed us alot over the last 6 months. Also if you are not an ocean sailor, you better become one quick. Practice your Le Mans starts, and go out when you normally wouldnt, and stay out way too late, you know, until it hurts! Then you might have a shot of being competitive, but I doubt it. haha

dave mosley
[Linked Image]

Last edited by dave mosley; 05/20/04 08:51 PM.

The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: Tybee500 Reflections... [Re: Jake] #33534
05/20/04 09:05 PM
05/20/04 09:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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I never mentioned that incident because I was pretty embarrassed that it nearly became very serious. I know that I should mention it however because somebody might learn from it. I had changed out my trapeze harness two days prior because my first one wasn't as comfortable in the long haul. I did have a rescue hook but had forgotten and left it on the strap on the harnesses that I had replaced. I also had a rigging knife in a slim pocket of my life vest but it was buried with my flashlight and powerbars. I was standing and teetering on the boom stretching to reach David's foot when I realized that I didn't have my safety hook. Then I couldn't get the knife out of the pocket. I jumped back in the water to take my weight off the boom to slow down the turtleing and allow me to use both hands to extract the knife but the boat almost sailed away from me - I got back on the boom and proceeded to throw everything out of my pocket (lost it all) and was finally able to get the knife out. I hesitated to tell this story out of embarrassment but I realize that it might make a difference in the gear someone takes with them. Had I had my rescue hook on me - this little problem would have stayed a little problem. GET ONE...PUT A LANYARD ON IT....AND WEAR IT . It very well could save yours or someone else's life. A dive knife is nice but they're a hazard - I had one that would pop out of the sheath on occasion and I was terrified I would stick myself with it. These are very safe and a hang-glider wouldn't leave ground without one.

[Linked Image]


Jake Kohl
Re: Tybee500 Reflections... [Re: Jake] #33535
05/20/04 10:21 PM
05/20/04 10:21 PM
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Mike2210 Offline
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Jake where can I find such a rescue tool? Thanks for your comments and thoughts on the race and congrats on your accomplishment !!

Mike kelley

Re: rescue hook knife [Re: Mike2210] #33536
05/20/04 11:18 PM
05/20/04 11:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
samevans Offline
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Re: Tybee500 Reflections... [Re: Mike2210] #33537
05/21/04 06:33 AM
05/21/04 06:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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It's made by Benchmark - I purchased mine on ebay but they're available all over the place. They are very popular with hang glider pilots and climbers. David Strickland (S.C.) showed them to me about 6 months ago. You can attach the sheath to your life vest but it works really well on the big side strap on most trapeze harnesses.

Note: the black colored stainless hook will rust on the black coated part (not the blade part) - if you're sailing in salt water, try the all stainless one.

And Oh yeah...they're only about $30; less than a good diving knife.

Last edited by Jake; 05/21/04 07:48 AM.

Jake Kohl
Re: Tybee500 Reflections... [Re: Jake] #33538
05/21/04 08:30 AM
05/21/04 08:30 AM
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South Florida
SOMA Offline
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Thanks for the response guys.

Here go some more questions, if you don't mind.

How long would you say it took you to right the boat after the capsizes? I didn't realize you capsized twice! What were the causes of the capsizes? A puff? A wave? A combo? Any shark dreams while kicking in the ocean?
Also, on Wednesday when we heard about the problem with the spinnaker pole someone asked if you were going to continue the race. Did you guys at any moment discuss the possibility of not continuing? and if so, what made you decide to go on?(I think this is a good "life lesson" in general, where at times a situation may feel or seem hopeless, fighting on instead of giving up really can put you back in the game).

And finally, what did your physical training consist of? Aerobic training? Strenghth building? and if so did you concentrate on certain groups of muscles that you use during sailing? or was it just general strength building.

Thanks again for your sharing the whole experience. You guys had quite a following during the week!


Fred F (ex Hobie 18)
GREAT thread! [Re: SOMA] #33539
05/21/04 11:25 AM
05/21/04 11:25 AM
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Wrightsville Beach, NC
Abstrait Offline
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Some really great info above!! Excellent to see a competitor's perspective in print.

One thing I would ADD from watching this race over the years and cat sailing off the coast for many more (H16 to H21se). In addition to practicing your starts, there seems to be serious need for practiciing the BEACH finishes in the surf. I actually cant count how many botched landings I have seen over the years from the inexperience in bringing the cats in through the waves. I have seen pitchpoles, capsizes on the beach, getting sideways in the surf, daggerboard problems, etc.

Most of the problems stem from improper weight distribution combined with a lack of practice riding the surf and judging the waves. Just as in learning the proper method for punching out through the surf, there are right and wrong ways to bring it in, many time depending on minute adjustments with tiller and weight distribution, not to mention the timing of the waves. I have seen everything from positions lost to boat damage in this last 50 yards. Of course, the beach landing is very unpredictable, but practice in a variety of conditions and breaks will really help (tides can really change the same location. knowledge of the bottom is imperative, too).

One last comment as well. IT is AMAZING how much ground one can pick up riding following seas or even cross seas. It can make a MAJOR MAJOR difference in the ocean and this is where experienced ocean sailors can REALLY eat up distance between the lake sailors. The Cats can really surf and if the helmsman REALLY concentrates on riding the swells, and not just SAILING, you will be WAY ahead of the competition. Anyone that has surfing/wave riding experience on board and boat will be way out front given all else equal.

kelly

Re: Tybee500 Reflections... [Re: SOMA] #33540
05/21/04 02:13 PM
05/21/04 02:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Righting the boat was no problem - it was gathering the spinnaker and getting it under control before righting that was so tough (this is easier if you have a snuffer system - not so for the distance racing pole we use). It was a matter of a minute or less once the spinnaker was out of the way. It was very windy every time and the wave action makes it even easier. Once we got settled on the turtled boat, it was again only about 30 seconds before we had her laying on her side again and properly angled for righting. We actually capsized three times throughout the week – once on leg #2 and twice on leg #3. I was rather inexperienced in those nuclear conditions and, in hindsight, we were simply pushing too hard. One of the capsizes happened because I had to go to the low side of the boat in order to restuff the spinnaker that continually kept coming out of the pocket we had on the trampoline - we weren't the only team with this problem. The first one on day 2 was both a puff that hit us and a wave that bucked the boat which caused David to loose footing and slide uncontrollably down the trampoline. I kept saying how that, instead of a hiking strap, I wanted to install several recessed 'heel' pockets in the trampoline in which to rest your heel for grip (remember where you heard that!). I'm always afraid of getting stuck under a hiking strap in a capsize. The third capsize was where we drove into the back of a steep wave with too much power - actually the boat didn't capsize then, it was only after what was left of the spinnaker drug in the water and pulled the boat over.

I phoned Richard and Cary after our spinnaker breakage so they could get some parts ready in case we needed to try a rendezvous but told them that we were currently planning to continue as is. About 30 minutes later, Richard called back for an update and David answered (I was driving to give David a moment to catch his breath too). By this time the wind had gotten pretty light and we were not making very good time. David was rightfully concerned that with the waves still big and the wind getting so light that if we went in to the beach for a repair that we may have serious problems trying to get back out again. It was at this time that Richard mentioned the area in the rules that stipulated a DNF would get you the last boat's time plus 30 minutes. David didn't even bother to consult with me and he didn't need to - he immediately replied "thanks for looking out for us but we came to finish". At no time did we contemplate dropping out...it was more of "gee...this has GOT to get easier soon!". So much effort had gone into getting into this race that I think we would have stayed in it unless one of us was physically unable to continue. However, at the time I was wondering how anyone could do 1000 miles of this - I have a whole new respect for those guys. Our goals coming into this were 1)survive 2)finish 3)not be last. Two out of three isn't so bad and we actually felt very good about our speed at the end. Toward the end of the week we were really getting the hang of the heavy air sailing and were able to horizon some damn fine sailors that we were unable to catch before.

Regarding the physical training; I was working out about three to four times a week - five if I could manage the time. I go in the mornings at 6am to the gym and do aerobics for 20 to 30 minutes and fast paced weight training for about 45 minutes to keep the heart rate up. I did this coupled with a low fat diet consisting of one portion carb and one portion protein six times a day (actually about 4 times a day and then I would cheat but with a healthy smallish dinner). It's mostly the "Body For Life" program - if you can stick to it wholeheartedly, this program will give you incredible progress quickly and in a very healthy manner - no starving (causing your body to go into fat storage mode) but you do have to work out hard and frequently. Being sore is the goal – this means your muscles are rebuilding to be more efficient. I was really working out every muscle group but I did focus a little more finely on back and shoulders. If you’re interested, I recommend buying a copy of the book. If you can get past the goofy pictures, it’s pretty inexpensive, a quick read, and makes a lot of sense (and works). I lost 18 lbs in three months and wasn't doing everything the plan asked me to.

Last edited by Jake; 05/21/04 02:47 PM.

Jake Kohl
Re: GREAT thread! [Re: Abstrait] #33541
05/24/04 05:47 AM
05/24/04 05:47 AM
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South Florida
SOMA Offline
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Jake ,
I was just curious if there is special physical training one would do to get ready for this type of event. I've been running 2 miles a day (or every other day) for the last 2 yrs. and that has kept my weight down. That's about 730 miles per year!!
Are these boats so light that they can be brought up from the turtled position so fast?
And finally, did you do much training in the ocean in preparation for this race? Where do you sail usually?.

The attached photo is the start from Hollywood beach.

Once again, thanks

Attached Files
33703-Roll 6 - 14.jpg (81 downloads)

Fred F (ex Hobie 18)
Re: congrates - [Re: Jake] #33542
05/24/04 09:09 AM
05/24/04 09:09 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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Great sailing Jake -congrates

misc notes on the race --

Another good aspect about sailing the Tybee or 1000 is afterwards there are no conditions or events that will intimidate you ,-instead you remind yourself of the Miami leg etc etc ,Its kind of like --oh ho hum its only blowing 25 in 3 ft seas no big deal .
Don,t know if Rick told stories of the 98 W -1000 -with 10 12 ft seas --thats 20 ft from trough to tops with {smaller 4 ft crosseas on top of those ,--arrrgghh thats sailin .
rented master and commander {movie} last ev and identified with the cape rounding scene ,-Really appreciate the race coverage and comments ,--really missed it this year ,-the race coverage and just being a fan has to suffice this year ,--really missed the race this year{did i mention that} ,my first missed since they begane again after 97 .
Plan to get in shape ,-leg heeling up ,-and be back next year for the 1000 ,-sounds like with numerous others planned return and new teams as well .It is a fantastic experience to challenge 500 or 1000 miles of Atlantic ocean .

One thing I,d like to see in 05 is more diverse types of boats competing . The ideal 20 ftr would have a reefable mainsail -and some added safety features to make the race of 1000 miles easier --and safer , as you noted the danger is in being physically exhausted and mentally beat up at times -capsizes minor injury -etc and being able to believe in your abilities and the boats to get you the next 100 miles or to the next checkpoint that leg and off the beach again ,--sometimes in evan more severe conditions the next morning .

The most difficult parts of the race traditionally are after Tybee Is .

Better versions of the I-20 or seemingly equal 6/0 as Rick indicated along with other 20s set up for this more extreme type of racing is needed,--Why we limit ourselves in these extreme events to{ mfg class}rules that vary with each making them non equal and insuffecient in accounting for the very different EXTREME conditions encountered may cost some team due to the conditions that per class racing would not go off the beach .
Numerous other improvements and safety related mods would occur under more open rules that would benifit all -Bill R notes on the drough para sail anchors to prevent drift when capsized as example ,---adjustable side stays making righting easier another ,-,-the spirit of the race has traditionally been about the people and not boats , but --the boats can be made to be easier and safer as well as getting other builder mfg and reps interested in showcasing their particular boat in the most extreme beach cat race in the world .

congrates again Jake -
please write more about the experiences and stories
take care
Carl

Re: congrates - [Re: sail6000] #33543
05/24/04 11:26 AM
05/24/04 11:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Jake  Offline OP
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Carl,

That's an interesting point regarding open class boats. One for which there is a lot of resistance. I heard a rumour (and it may very well be only that) that a carbon fiber 20' boat was encouraged to not enter the Tybee500. I don't know if there is any truth to that but it is an interesting situation.

Personally, I'm riding the fence on the issue. I like class racing - it's a more pure form of competition. But on the other hand, allowing developmental boats can be exciting and can bring about new technological advances. It also is riskier for the race organizers from a safety standpoint for several reasons; new (a.k.a. unproven) designs will have more potential for structural/safety issues. Having boats with varying speed potentials means the competitors will be farther away from each other with less possibility to assist an ailing boat and/or crew (an OBX500 team assisted another boat on at least two occasions this year).

I think there should be an open developmental 'bring it on' class sometime in the future for the Atlantic 1000 although I do believe that the event may be a little young for it right now - they have a great thing going now and it will be interesting to see how the momentum moves forward next year (hopefully we'll see you on the start line Carl!). I would like to see some mean machines show up one day in the future.


Jake Kohl
Re: congrates - [Re: Jake] #33544
05/24/04 01:30 PM
05/24/04 01:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Hi Jake

Which race were you most interested in competing in. The one design race (I20 or Nacra 6.0) OR the Elapsed time race?

Rick Bliss made it very clear that his race was NOT first to the beach.... rather... it was the Nacra 6.0 class win and that was what was important to his team.

While the reporting on the web attempted to be balanced... I personally feel that the most intersting race among the leaders was on elapsed time.

Just my opinion

Mark




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: congrates - [Re: Mark Schneider] #33545
05/24/04 02:08 PM
05/24/04 02:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Jake  Offline OP
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Mark,

That's not an easy question - it appeared that the race management attention was first to the beach during the race but this seemed to be in conflict to their pre-race strict one design racing philosophy. During the awards ceremony they did break out the I20 and N6.0 classes but on the beach during the starts, they did not. Starting positions were awarded based on your overall, mixed class, finish the day before and a second row start automatically received a one minute penalty (so I was told). If it were strict one design, why wouldn't the 6.0's have an independent push off? Realistically, from our viewpoint, the boat capabilities are so similar that we (on an I20) considered passing a 6.0 as an accomplishment and as such we were considering it as a first to the beach race. We gauged our current-day success based on where we started the following day and tried to equal or better each time out.


Jake Kohl
Re: congrates - [Re: Mark Schneider] #33546
05/24/04 02:12 PM
05/24/04 02:12 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Mark,

Further to your question - ideally I would like to see the event strong enough to support both a developmental open class and one design class(es). I will not be able to afford to build or buy a custom carbon 20' rocket and it would be sensless for me to race these guys, boat for boat, with a production glass boat. Personally I want the class racing but would like to see the developmental class for my own viewing pleasure.


Jake Kohl
Re: 20 ft racing class suggestions for 05 [Re: Jake] #33547
05/24/04 03:23 PM
05/24/04 03:23 PM
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MI
sail6000 Offline
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MI

Thanks Jake -
and again hope you write more about the race experiences and adventures encountered ,-liked the singing part .

your right about an {open class} as per 87 88 W-1000
the only limit was 20 length ,--that can wait until future years -Lighterweight HT type 20s will have to wait until this class is available ,or as interest builds for it again as per earlier years .

seperately ,-as per current rules evolving ,-a production 20 class of proven existing 20s with a general set of max specs. and rules applied for all ,-based on the I-20 -with min boat weight 390 is the ideal way to race this event as a first across the line wins format,---add class categories as well .
The F-20 rules outline uses a larger graduated spin size for heavier boat weights ,just as other F-classes use applied to crew weights -the production 20 class can also accomodate brand classes within for awards ,-but like the idea of beach starts per finish position ,as you did this year -Rick finished within seconds of leg honors ,-and beat the Semp team on an I-20 on actual time - If a 6/0 or H-20 or any 20 wins a leg they deserve the pole position on the start the next day ,-that has always been an intrisic part of the race -
If a F-18 class has entries next year a seperate start for them would be required ,-but start them an hour earlier on average to compensate for overall speed ,-Think the average design equation is 10% per ft ,-so on av 20% more time ea leg ,-a 5 hour leg = 1 hr av ,--this would vary greatly in real life as the 18s would be almost equal in upwind higher windspeeds .
The only I-20s to beat Rick and Brandy on actual time were Tybee and Castrol -who will beat most any distance racing 20 due to their years of racing experience and living in year round sailing environments FL .to race and train in .

We could see a number of 20 ft cats racing with basically the same boat weight range and sail areas ,-it would as always and the race still get down to who prepared trained and sailed best --regardless of boat ,-as it should be ,--The Formula approach to 20s just allowes more options as to reef systems and set up for safety and speed in offshore distance racing and provides a standard set of boat specifications and basic equal rules .-
Full disclosure of all modifications before the race so all teams know what is allowed or not allowed and how others are set up is a key feature that allowes all team to make the same or add the same set ups if they desire .

It will take a few 20 sailors getting their particular 20 set up and actively racing and entering in the 500 or 1000 next year ,-I,m sure the race organizers will accomodate the wishes of 20 sailors ,-note most resistance is from non distance racing sailors that have no intent of racing or know how extreme and physically demanding the race is -
Safety and allowing reef systems and good righting and other modification should be number 1 .

Thinking of racing with one of my sons next year -just 13 ,--youngest entrant ever by far ,-but will not unless the 20 can be set up with a main reef system ,-and other safety features .--Would like to try a different 20 platform --one of several 20 platforms possibly ,with a similar CF mast and matching sq ft sailplan of the Inter ,-think it would be a superior 20 in waves and chop, basic ocean conditions particularly than the Inter with its flat wide bow sections that often pound in seas. It would also be an easier ride.

A H-20 was sailed really well in the 98 W-1000 by the younger Aussie team , a number of others would or could be modified or built for the race per rules outlined including the FOX or improved version ,-an ARC 20 would be fantastic -
The Mystere 20 was sailed in the 98 99 races very well -
A nacra 6/0 platform with mod sail plan would be a great boat for this race ,-There are a number of good EU built 20 ft cats or any 19 could be modified to 20 ft with 8.5 beam as well .

Hope to put one together and race it during the season in a few distance racing events ,-still unsure which 20 ,still have the I-20 and a H-18 and SC15 --all great cat designs and products I would be happy to race on any production 20 set up properly for the 05 race .

Re: congrates - [Re: Jake] #33548
05/24/04 03:37 PM
05/24/04 03:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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So... What's it gonna be

If you are lined up for the start based on your last elapsed time finish... then that's what is being measured!
One design standings, Portsmouth standings, Texel standings, or ISAF standings are all secondary results.

So, my point is IF you have a faster boat in the race and the boat finishes first... by default the driving team will be declared the de facto winner and start at the pole position, day after day and they will give the majority of interviews at the finish line.

His sponsor will be thrilled. BUT is this sporting?

How about this debate:
The I20 with a 25 sq meter chute is almost the same as a 6.0 with a 28 sq meter chute..... BUT... what if the 6.0's could use unlimited chutes??? Would that be a fair race on elapsed time?

The devil is in the details and it depends on what you think is sporting.

Under the current rules, the following production 20's are not allowed.

Eagle 20, Vector?? Marine 20, Marstrom 20, Supercat 20, and Tornado's.
These boats are wider or lighter then the current boats. They would likely beat the current I20 or 6.0 config on elapsed.
Are they in or out of next years race?







crac.sailregattas.com
Re: a seperate unlimited 20 class [Re: Mark Schneider] #33549
05/24/04 06:14 PM
05/24/04 06:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Mark -

In the 1987 AND PRECEEDING YEARS OF THE 1000 MILE RACE then called WORLD-1000 the rules were open ,the only limit was 20 ft --there were Tornados entered in earlier years -a Hurrican {similar} from the UK ,-lightweight HT type 20s -CUSTOM CATS --PLANNING TYPE HULLS plus -
a Supercat 20 with wingmast -and 20 ftrs with racks and wings ---GREAT innovations and FUN .

This would have to be designated as a seperate unlimited design class and given a seperate start -by an hour -
I hope we see this in future years for the race -

Next year to increase potential entries and more diverse types of 20s the ideal would be a production 20 or Formula 20 type class all racing off the beach on a first across the checkpoint finish line beach wins with sub brand class categories for awards .

In this type of extreme race most teams begin a year or at least 6 months in advance getting a boat prepared crew racing training etc , Boats are selected and preped for this type of ocean distance racing which most understand is very different from buoys racing ,P rating based on buoys racing or tex or Isaf could be used but is very contrary to the intent and history of the event .
Texel is derived from the similar ISAF but intended for the 600 boat race Round Texel involving 600 very different cat designs of all sizes and design types --If the race were open to all ,-then Tex would make sence ,-however the race organizers and finishers would be 8 or 10 hours on the beach each leg trying to finish slower boats by hours and ajust scores which the media and few really understand well .P rating based on buoys racing for numerous reasons has the same negative application or appeal as applied to the 1000 mile race .-If you attempt the race as partisipant you would understand the preferance for class racing as applied ,-just as class racing is applied to major national world championship events and Olympics ,-A major event and efforts by teams of this agnitude deserve the recognition of individual achievement for sailing excellence as per Brian has recieved as winner of the event and sailor of the year awards . --If another won on corrected time based on very disimilar buoys racing and flaws inherant in all rating systems it would be a travesty to the event and sport as well,-just as it would if used in major championships or Olympics .

As we see in the Formula classes in existance now and in this years race different design 20s are very similar in speed given the same basic max specifications per rules outline . The added partisipation from several different potential boat mfg and international teams is worth making this the rule for future years events along with other added seperate F-18 OR A SEPERATE Unlimited 20 class with seperate start if the entries and interest there . The beaches and hotels can house and support numerous teams in seperate starts for beach access and space available for starts.

Take care Mark -hope the area racing and sailing club is going well and going to have a great sailing season . I do understand why handicap racing is the only viable alternative you have with small diverse groups of cat designs wishing to race at the local and club events ,--hope to get the same going on my small lake ,just more oriented to beginners and kids plus parents with sailing classes this season , though will use an individual handicap system to encourage new people into it

The key being each type of scoring system or class racing applied to its proper type of event or race .

Re: congrates - [Re: Mark Schneider] #33550
05/24/04 07:31 PM
05/24/04 07:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Mark,

I don't ever care to see a handicap system in this kind of serious racing. It would be like allowing the Ford Taurus a 2 second per minute handicap over Chevy in NASCAR and as far as I'm concerned, it would do the same here as it would to the Talledega 500 - cheapen the whole thing. You want serious hard core racing up the coast? Separate classes by production class, formula class, and/or bring your monster creation (within a few basic rules...which is still sort'of a formula) - first boat in each division wins his/her division. Portsmouth is fun and good for some semi-serious racing, but there are and always will be, glaring weaknesses within any given handicap system. I don't want to spend this much effort and $$$ to be beat by a 'rule beater' at this level. Go ahead and out-run me...but do it with your talent and skill.


Jake Kohl
Hey Fred... [Re: SOMA] #33551
05/24/04 08:56 PM
05/24/04 08:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
veteran
dave mosley  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
Sounds ike you want to sail this thing(?) Heres what I did to prepare. In November I weighed 195 #'s, never been in a gym, and couldnt stand the thought of giving up food. I did realize that this race was going to be challenging, and so I should treat it seriously, in so doing, start strengthening my body and mind to step up to the challlenge.
I have mountain biked for 15 years, but with 2 new kids and a crazy work schedule, even that had slipped. My employer( a hospital with a brand new fitness center) offered a free membership and 3 visits with a trainer. I tried to explain to the trainer what I was doing, and the muscle groups I anticipated would be "challenged". I stopped eating sugar, even sweet tea(thats hard for a boy from S Carolina). I quit eating carbs after 5pm, and I cut back on the cool ones. I hit the gym 2 times a week and bought a weight machine to fill in the gaps. I did millions of crunches, tons of dumbbell work(more on that later) and did a serious cardio workout on the stationary bike. I like the "Hill plus" mode on the bike. I did interval training on the bike in this mode with the one minute rest cycle at 100 rpm, and when the one minute hill cycle hit, I bumped up my rpm's to 125. One minute on, one minute of rest with a 5 minute warm up and a 5 minute cool down. Then on to the wieghts and the swedish ball for the abs. I also found when Jake nd I were training on the I20 that I tended to stand on my tip toes while trapezing. I didnt do alot of that in the race, but I worked my calves pretty hard before the race too, just to be sure. I dropped 15 pounds pretty quickly and my stamina increased dramatically.
In the race my biggest pains were my elbows, I seemed to get a serious tennis elbow in both arms by the end of day 2. My abs were fine, my legs were fine, but my back hurt everyday. I contribute most of my back soreness to staying on one tack looking and leaning backward for 4-6 hours a day.
The Dumbells. I beleive with a good cardio program, a set of heavy dum bells, and a homemade mainsheet system workout bench of sorts, you could bypass the gym. You have to be pretty motiivated to work out at home, too many distarctions for me.
Bottom line, if you want to sail next year, start working out today.
As far as the ocean training, we had one day. Saturday before the Tybee we went out for about a half an hour. Not really a good idea, do more training in the ocean! Practice the starts and the finishes, with the chute up, driving hard up to the beach, thats what you will be doing in the race.

Good luck,
Dave Mosley
www.teamseacats.com


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





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