Jake,
<br>
<br>I couldn't agree with you more. As someone that is 31 (just turned last week too) and just reintroduced myself to cat sailing, our targets have to be aimed at the 20s and 30s crowd. Most of my friends don't have a clue what cat sailing is. Most think of sailing as lounging around on a big boat catching some rays. Cat sailing is so different from monohull sailing. We have got to capture the crowd that likes adventure sports. I firmly believe that we need more exposure by media and more cats on the water. Question is, how do we do this.
<br>
<br>I propose more active involvement with fleets and cat shops to promote fun events. Hopefully, this will draw more boats out and thus more exposure. It isn't often that someone will come down to look at one cat on the beach. If we have even 4-5, that will provoke some interest from the passerby. These people may become interested, especially when told how cheap it is to get into the sport (I just bought a 16 for $550 with trailer). Once they're in, they may want to participate in these "fun" events and eventually buy a larger boat or go into racing. We need to hook these people and show them how much fun we are having. Racing, while it is an absolute blast while out there, is very boring for the casual spectator to watch.
<br>
<br>In regards to buying new boats. It is my feeling that comparing cat sailors to J boat sailors is ludicrous. As mentioned, I spent $550 for my boat, the boats you mentioned are more than my house. As an adrenaline junky, I have no interest in monohulls, nor will I ever. If we get people to buy used boats and get into the sport, these are the people more likely to buy a new boat at a later time. Youth programs are an excellent idea. If the local sailing clubs were able to offer a program through high schools as credit for gym, we may get some people there. I know I would have done that in a heartbeat. I had the opportunity to make windsurfing an "independent gym study" while in high school, so I know the possibility exists.
<br>
<br>Hope to see you on the water. Thanks for your time.
<br>
<br>Kip
<br>H16<br><br>

Hi Kip:
<br>
<br>I think you missed the point I was making with regard to the expensive boats selling. What I was trying to point out is that there are people out there with enough money to buy expensive toys but that the catamaran market as it currently stands requires more time than they have available as opposed to more money than they have available.
<br>
<br>Mark A. Michaelsen ~MM~
<br>SPS Website: http://www.sailingproshop.com
<br>Small Craft Advisories Sailing Centers
<br>1244 Pacific Coast Highway
<br>Seal Beach, Ca 90740
<br>(562) 594-8749 Voice
<br>(562) 594-0208 FAX
<br>(800) 354-7245 Order Line
<br>(714) 238-0925 International Voice Mail/Pager
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

Some other comments-
<br>In Europe they have sailing "clubs" to which you can belong. The clubs own boats and you simply reserve a boat, show up and sail. No access, storage, registration, trailer, long (or dead) grass, insurance, maintenance or upkeep issues. Just a "low" monthly fee.
<br>Many of the Universities here have sailing clubs that students and faculty can join that operate much the same way. But I've never seen a cat at one-
<br>Our sailing club here has "club-owned" boats that can be used by anyone, but again, no cats.
<br>Perhaps this would be a way to promote (or keep alive??) cat sailing in certain areas- If everyone banded together and started a club such as this or bought a few of those cheap old boats and had them available for use by "newbies" or "wanna-bes" for a set fee or period.
<br>Another interesting thing I've noticed is it seems to me, when I got into cat sailing in the 70's I used to go to my local lake about every weekend and see LOTS of boats out "JUST SAILING" and having fun! Heck, if it was a Holiday or beautiful long weekend you would see more boats than you did on a Regatta day if the weather sucked! Now, when I go out "just sailing", I see a few cats sometimes and lots more monos. Only see a lot of cats out if they are "racing". Sometimes I think one of the problems is "we" (the few still active cat sailors and perhaps some, if not all, the US builders) stress racing (intentionally or unintentionally) rather than "just sailing". I didn't buy my first new cat to "race" but just to sail and I had to be cajoled into entering my first regatta. Not many people buy their first car to race it, they consider racing cars after they know how to drive and want to test or improve their skill at it. If we "made" everybody who wanted to drive feel like they had to enter a "Formula 1 race" (although coming to work some days feels like one!) to join the ranks of "drivers" there would be a lot less of those too!
<br>So one thing I try to do is encourage and help all "newbies" to JUST SAIL and offer to sail with them, meet them at the lake, etc. I DO NOT try to push them into racing, they will "ask" if/when they are ready AND if they don't want to, and all they want to do is sail and enjoy the sport they are still "okay" by me (but scorned by many other "racers" unfortunately).
<br>By the way, no one mentioned the Escape Playcat which was designed and is being marketed to do just what Ed suggested at the start of this thread and we should ALL applaud their efforts! Also, no mention was made of my good friends, the Fahle's, who single-handedly brought in a large number of "beginners" boats and have "jump-started" cat sailing in their area-
<br>
<br>Kirt Simmons<br><br>Kirt Simmons
<br>Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48

Very thought provoking discussion folks.
<br>
<br>I agree, beach access and ease of going sailing are the major issues for new sailors getting into the sport.
<br>
<br>Mark M are there yacht clubs in so cal where you could keep the boat with the stick up.
<br>
<br>How much do they cost?
<br>
<br>If you have them why aren't racing catsailors beating down the doors to get into them and go racing with out the trailer hassels.?
<br>
<br>In the Annapolis area, a marina with beach access will cost 1300 to 1450 per year. These facilities include pools and many other amenities. Very few racers are willing to pay the freight There are other locations which are much more rustic for far less. Keith's club is very successful with their tuesday night racing program.
<br>
<br>Traditional Yacht clubs in the Annapolis area are about the same price range but they do not have the storage space for fully rigged cats. Space = money.
<br>
<br>Tough issue to solve.<br><br>

YES! We do have a number of clubs that have started taking catamarans. Alamitos Bay Yacht Club here in Long Beach, CA. The costs of ABYC are: $1200 to join (unless they are running a special). The spaces are about $65 a month which is cheap compared to public or private mast down storage which is miles from the water.
<br>
<br>King Harbor Yacht Club in Redondo Beach, CA (Los Angeles proper) has a great fleet of catamarans. Their commodore is a NACRA 5.8 sailor and welcomed us on AFTERBURNER personally when we were first to finish in the SAnta BArbara King Harbor race this August. Their prices are similar to ABYC's. Even Newport Harbor YC has accepted a few cats like A CLASS and NACRAs (They are VERY*** traditional) so the boats are making inroads. NHYC is way out of my budget but it's a great club and a pretty place to sail.
<br>
<br>The limitation to all of this is the total amount of space available and the waiting lists for spaces is growing at these clubs.
<br>
<br>We encourage all of our clients to invest in a membership at our local clubs as it is well worth the hot showers, seminars and good friends you will undoubtedly make.
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<br>MM
<br>http://www.sailingproshop.com<br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

The university that I attend has a sailing club, on the small side ( under 50 members, 2 years old). Our sailing club has ~10 boats, all of which have been donated, that we use for teaching club members to sai andl that can also be used by club members once they have learned to sail. That is in addition to the 5 member boats that are also parked at the lakeside property that we sail from.
<br>
<br>We teach 4-8 people a semester how to sail, and have many more who come to our on-campus meetings. The biggest struggle we have is not finding people who want to learn to sail, but getting people who are willing to go out sailing enough to learn to sail (as in more than once). The other struggle is having enough people that already know how to sail to teach and maintain boats. It always seems to end up with 3-5 people in the club doing most of the work to keep things alive. Of all the boats the club has, already to be sailed, we have a rather hard time keeping them used.
<br>
<br>Our first few meetings of the semester have tons of people who are really pumped about learning to sail, but 2 weeks later, most of them have gone away, never to be seen again. The tough part is getting those people to actually invest the time to come out and sail.
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<br>
<br>David Rogers
<br>
<br><br><br>

on the Gulf Coast, especially in the Biloxi area. Miles and miles of beach in Miss, and a couple of very affordable yacht clubs that allow storage on their beaches. In Pensacola, not much stick-up storage but there is public beach to trailer-launch from. Same in south Alabama. Texas as far as I've seen doesn't have much beach in the same sense as Miss, but there are areas to trailer to, similar to the Pensacola area.
<br>
<br>Mark, if it were mainly an access problem, I'd like someone to explain to me why cat-sailing isn't terribly popular in the mid-Gulf? You can't ask for better catsailing conditions than what we're blessed with...<br><br>

There is, or was, a $3000 starter cat this year in the midwest. The Mystere 4.3. A 14' fiberglass cat with jib, main, & spinnaker. It was instantly a success and both brought in some new sailors and caused some old sailors to switch boats, or more often, to add a boat to their fleets.
<br>
<br>There is a definite appeal to a new boat that is not there on a used boat. And being able to get one in a $3000 price range makes it a very different decision than buying the typical new boat.
<br>
<br>I can't name all of the reasons why it worked, but when someone came to town with a new fun entry level boat in the $3000 price range, 30 of them sold in Ohio, Indiana, & Illinois.
<br>
<br>We now have a whole new one-design class at virtually every regatta in Ohio.<br><br>

why would i, as a non-sailor or just a beginer, want to buy a cat? (i know why, but let us immagine it is not me.;) ) they have all of those ropes and the two hulls? jeeze, you could not get it right the first time? chances are, if i am interested in a boat, a sail boat at that, i can afford an 'expensive' boat. if i can not afford it, chances are i have not been exposed to it.
<br> like it or not, sailing is still (precieved) as a rich man's sport. that is why there is no $3000(us) starter boat.
<br> <br><br>

At the four OCRA regattas there were 10, 13, 9,& 12 boats respectively!<br><br>

MM:
<br>
<br>I think I have to respectfully disagree with you on this point. You had excellent statistics showing the various boats that have been bought. If these boats were bought, these people clearly had time to use them. The question is, why did they choose those boats over cats. I currently windsurf in a high wind area and wanted a toy to use in lower winds. Although there is a great deal of kitesailing in my area, and I seriously considered starting this, I chose to buy a Hobie instead. For roughly the same investment, I now have a boat I can use in a wide variety of conditions, can race, and more importantly, can use with others. It takes me just as much time to rig my board as it does the 16. It takes kites longer than me to rig. I understand there are a bevy of more complicated boats out there than the 16, I also used to own an 18. The point is, it really doesn't take that much longer to rig a cat than a windsurfer, or even a PWC. We're not talking about rigging for an hour, its a matter of minutes.
<br>
<br>I'm sorry to hear about the launching plights you are having in your area. I don't disagree with your thoughts that this is one reason for the decline in your area. It certainly is not the case in my region. I have had the privilege of living in a number of states and I do not recall having difficulty in accessing sailing areas in those regions.
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<br>As a member in a Hobie Fleet years ago, I recall having several fun events on the calendar. As I look at fleets' websites now, there are hardly any. One of the attractions of cat sailing, as has been mentioned in previous posts, is the ability to bring the whole family. I believe more fun events will help boost fleet membership and thus boost future boat sales.
<br>
<br>On another note, I had not been to your website before and wanted to congratulate you on a great site! I'm sure I'll be purchasing equipment from you in the future as the closest shop for me is four hours away.
<br>
<br>Thanks for the opportunity to respond.
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<br>Kip
<br>H16<br><br>

Kirt:
<br>
<br>Thanks for saying what I've been trying to say. I think we've gotten away from the fun sailing and everybody is focusing on racing. Most people need to fun sail before they go racing. More boats on the water, even at a fun event, will attract attention and that is what cat sailing needs.
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<br>Kip
<br>H16<br><br>

Hi Tami
<br>
<br>I think the major issue is having the stick up and not having to trailer. Sandy Point in Marlyand used to have lots of sailing and windsurfing activity. Use was continually droping and so the park decided jet ski's must share the beach. The park closed the venu for two years to remodel and moved the beach. The day sailors never returned. The jet ski's are still there... sigh!
<br>
<br>On the other hand the growth of catamaran clubs would really hurt the Hobie Points regatta system.
<br>How many of your sailors who have their boats at clubs with the stick up will drop the stick and take the boat to a regatta. The majority of these folks who race in their club series will not be motivated by "the competition" to travel to a points regatta. It takes a major special event to motivate these guys to trailer.
<br>
<br>If I were NAHCA and interested in transforming the cat racing world in an effort to survive. I would try to develop cat sailing clubs where the sticks are up. ... this will get the beginner to a place where they can sail and learn from other sailors.
<br>Dealers must promote these clubs as THE place to put your boat.
<br>
<br>These clubs also need a weekly club racing program supported by the local rock stars. (Everyone likes to compete against this rock star... small victories are very sweet.) This will suit most of the racers in the club.
<br>
<br>Now the controverial part: the major triangle regattas need to be reduced to one or so a month. AND...they need to be events that casual racers want to go to. Wildwood NJ was for years a Huge 100 plus boat regatta, They would generate a huge B and C Hobie 16 fleet that never appeared at another event in the division. The event offered a lot more then cat racing .
<br>
<br>BTW OCRA has and I believe CRAW will be running reduced regatta schedules so that they can generate a critical mass of sailors at a venue.
<br>
<br>This program would cost sailors money but they would recover time. De emphasizing the typical points regatta will cause heartburn. Developing events like Wildwood, Spring Fever, Cat Fight will take a lot of effort. Promising events like St Pete's sail fest have folded. Years ago. Catfests??? were held in Newport and at Sandy Point with 100 boat turnouts. NAHCA's move to consolidate multi class nationals is a great idea for next year. Perfomance is trying to pull the same thing off at Virginia Beach next year. Martha's Vineyard Edgartown Yacht club will try to pull off A class Worlds and Tornado Worlds next year . (God only knows if the Americans will afford the place)
<br>
<br>In summary, leadership must choose between the same old same old program which has left us with stuggling fleets and nothing more then Jeff Alters program of convince all of your friends to sail either a hobie 16 or a hobie tiger. Or develop a new program and develop the consensus.of sailors to make it work.
<br>Quick and easy access to the water seems to be key though in order to get the ball rolling.
<br>Take Care
<br>Mark<br><br>

I live in upstate NY and I agree and disagree with some of this discussion. I sympathize with your access problem on the coast but there are lots of lakes between those coasts that don't have that limitation. If I had to pay $1400. (or even considerably less than that) to keep my boat at the water I would probably not own my own boat. I would crew.
<br>Anyhoo, I belong to a racing oriented fleet, we still have lots of social things going and just about any a fleeter will take a new guy or gal out even if they just walk up to us while were rigging, even on our thurs night race!
<br>Despite all this, our fleet was still declining untill recently, I am at a loss as to why it was in decline, but we make an effort with newbies and it showes now.
<br>as to money, I don't know anybody who wouldn't buy a new boat if they could afford it(I can't). but we try to tell new people that an old boat might be a good idea at first anyway,
<br>you won't cry when you scratch it and any-way in c and b fleet (new guys) you don't need a perfect new boat to do well, so you beat the crap out of an old boat and when you realize you can do better but the boat is holding you back, not the nut on the tiller, then you get a new or newer boat! like me!
<br>as to how to increase participation? bring someone sailing who hasen't sailed before, this sport is addicting, if you hook them, they will find away to sail.
<br>
<br>for example, My crew (chong of course) never set foot on a sailboat in his life, I bought my first H16 going on four years ago,(after a 10 year absence) and informed him he was my crew, he agreed to give it a try, the first day it was blowing 20kts and he's never looked back. Check out the websight he has made just about us fleet 204 and our sailing adventures. www.bulletshot.com
<br>
<br>sorry for the ramble
<br>cheech
<br>fleet 204
<br>H16<br><br>

The most significant factors cited and defended here seem to be boat price migrations, demographics, set up time, and PR.
<br> IF I missed your "most important factor" post it under this thread, and we'll ad it to the "action items hopefully without further debate. Anyone wishing to sign up with ideas/help on any action item is great; if you don't see the importance of somebody else's item, just don't get involved with that factor. This way, you vote with your efforts.
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<br>Boat price
<br>GEastment writes:
<br>
<br><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>Interesting to hear the different points of view from the different continents, so thanks!
<br>
<br>Thought I would chuck in my thoughts on the Australian scene, as I have observed the decline of the sport here.
<br>
<br>First point to make is that much of the fleets that I sailed in when I was a kid (monos & a little bit of cats) were kids of parents who had started sailing in the post war dinghy boom- cheap home made one-design boats that hit the water in thousands. Mirrors, herons, etc. (Since then the fleets have shrunk and shrunk. I think this is at least in part because the boats became more complex, expensive and it was just harder to 'keep up' if you wanted to be competitive. It is interesting to see the new mono designs eat each other up, while classes like the heron here in aus make a bit of a comeback)
<br>
<br>I think this provided the background for the cat boom in the 70's and 80's- a vaguely sailing literate public saw a cheap way to jump into the sport in the shape of the hobies and maricats etc. Mostly 14 footers that were fun and not too intimidating for the novice. Since that initial period we have gradually gotten more expensive and bigger and faster- now if you want to start in a 14 you almost have to sail alone around behind all the bigger boats- not very inviting! So the same goes for the cats as for the monos; those not going the 'whole hog' get left behind and end up dropping off. cf the thousands of 14ft cats sitting in backyards doing squat. (Exactly the same thing has happened to windsurfing here- when I was wave sailing in the 80's there was apparently 40 to 50 shops here in Sydney selling parts/ boards etc. Now there are two. It got more and more complex and the boards got shorter and the thing just evolved itself back onto the fringes).
<br>
<br>As i reread the above, it is all a bit rambly, but I think there are a few valid obsevations... but what to do? I'm outta time, so might come back... but I believe the answer lies with a focus on clubs, not classes and dealers (though imp), a focus on junior sailing (the future, this is where the strong mono fleets come from, and a focus outside SMOD (single manufacturer one design) racing. One design, yes, but with open rules re sailmaker, parts etc...makes sailing cheaper as there is competition. (Having said that, H16 remains one of the only entry type boats you can but that has a decent fleet etc here in aus, so is a valuable boat for sailing here.)
<br>
<br>Just some thoughts, hope they provoke thought. <p><hr></blockquote>
<br>
<br>I wonder what the original retail price of a hoby 14 was, in today's dollars? I know a website that does the calculations for you... Anyone know the original price, in the original dollars?
<br>
<br>What this Aussie sez makes sense to me as being ONE of several important factors!! His view motivated my original post.
<br>Lets have one sub-thread restricted to exploring this aspect, please.
<br>
<br>PR
<br>I'm working with MM on an "idear" for PR, we'll post more on it as we spin it up, for your collective additions and/or subtractions, right now, it's at that embarrassing "I know, why don't we...." stage.
<br>
<br>Access is something Mark's other thread addresses. We can all weigh in there.
<br>
<br>Demographic changes mean we have to explore new niches;I personally agree with the remarks about 20-30's (at heart) yr old thrill seekers. How to address them? They shop in Sports Authority and its analogs. Whether the dealers on this site believe it's possible, advisable or not, if it is possible I do think we'd get some results if cats had a mass marketable model. Other Ideas for this Demographic? Other remedies for Demographic changes?
<br>Again, one sub-thread would be nice.
<br>
<br>Set up time is cited as a factor in certain demo-psychographic segments. IN ONE subthread, can we press manufacturers to make 'speed kits' optional and somewhat reasonable. Murrays sells a couple o' packages, they get little PR, IMHO they are a pretty good investment.
<br>
<br>I did an informal survey on "on the beach" storage, after a wonderfull time at SHBCC. (around the statue) Everyone was 'hot' till one guy said his 'old boat' rusted out in one season 'on the beach' and suddenly everyone went cool on the idea. Rebuttals, pleeze!!!
<br>Other ideas on Set up time?
<br>
<br>Regards,
<br>
<br>Ed<br><br>

MarK M & Eric,
<br>
<br>You can count on my support with respect to PR.
<br>
<br>With respect to lower pricing cats, well I'm already on it. And you've seen the support from BIM etc on this forum
<br>
<br>With respect to rusting on the beach, let this guy mail me and I explain to him how we in holland have done it for over 25 years. Okay once in every 5 to 6 years you might want to replace your trampoline due to UV, but my 1974 Prindle 16 is still going on strong with orginal beams and masts
<br>
<br>If you feel that I can do something to help then tell me.
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

Wouter<br><br>

On the beach storgae will increase the oxidation but only to a limited degree. There is no way that a guys boat could "rust out" in one season. We kept our boats on the beach in Lanikai Hawaii where the salinity levels are much higher in the water and where the winds are onshore almost all year at 20-30mph. The cars rusted out, the boats were fine.
<br>
<br>MM<br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

PR
<br>I'm working with MM on an "idear" for PR, we'll post more on it as we spin it up, for your collective additions and/or subtractions, right now, it's at that embarrassing "I know, why don't we...." stage.
<br>
<br>Reply to this psage to help, advise support the pr effort, only, please<br><br>

Changing Demo's Ideas on this thread only, please
<br>
<br>Demographic changes mean we have to explore new niches;I personally agree with the remarks about 20-30's (at heart) yr old thrill seekers. How to address them? They shop in Sports Authority and its analogs. Whether the dealers on this site believe it's possible, advisable or not, if it is possible I do think we'd get some results if cats had a mass marketable model. Other Ideas for this Demographic? Other remedies for Demographic changes?
<br>Again, one sub-thread would be nice.
<br>
<br>
<br>