This makes me realize how much the average job/vacation here in the US kinda sux. Don't get me wrong, I love my country, but to have to work 6 months for one week vacation on average kinda sux when trying to spend quality time with your family. I couldn't go to Nationals, only a few hours away, b'cause I couldn't have the time off work, but I know thats a personal problem. If they want a economic stimulus, they should give everyone a week to travel and spend some money right now, but that wouldn't be free enterprise and probably unconstitutional. After all, those guys who lived 250 years ago knew exactly how to run our country today. I just glad a have a good job, wonderful family, and God Bless.<br><br>

As I've posted before, I think important things are affordable boats, good water access, and good storage.
<br>
<br>As for price not being an issue - we've added a fair number of new members to our Fleet over the last two years. None of them have a new boat. So far none of them are interested right now in paying $14k for a new boat. New boats do not seem to be an option for any of them. They'd love them, sure, but it's probably not going to happen. They've all gotten in by picking up used cats (mostly 5.8s) for under or around $3k. Our latest addition picked up a used Prindle-18 for under $1k and are enthusiastic. They'll move up some day. Others that are on the sidelines looking to join in are looking for used boats. For the price, nobody is interested in a Wave, either. Most of these people would not bother if there was not an alternative to the price tag on a new boat. Most of these people would not bother if they could not leave their boats set up.
<br>
<br>Set-up time - Most every new boat (with some speed) is a gaggle of lines. I remember my 14 and being happy that I could set it up in 20 minutes by myself. My 18 was a step up in time rigging, and it's about the max I'd want to do for recreational sailing. Some of the new stuff looks like a significant investment in time of getting all the various lines rigged right. Fine for the hardcore (I wouldn't mind for racing), daunting and a pain in the butt for the entry level sailor.
<br>
<br>Comparing sails of ski boats to entry level cat sailing is apples and oranges. Most people I know that are into powerboats find lots of ways to denigrate sailing in general. They take pride in how much they spend on fuel. They are not your market. The people that are are the ones that sit on the sideline of boating in general because the whole thing is too much money and hassle. They like the freedom of sailing but can't figure how to make it work. WE NEED TO SHOW THEM HOW TO MAKE IT WORK!
<br>
<br><br><br>Keith, Annapolis, Md.
<br>H-18
<br>Northstar 500 (monoslug)
<br>www.wrcra.org

That's why we love our SHBCC! Hi Todd. See you next spring, my boat is still on the beach.<br><br>

couple of brief points (I'm at my job where I have little vacation - so I must be quick):
<br>
<br>The new boat market is hurting because there are so many used boats available. There are so many used boats available because the sport is in a decline. In order to make new boats a more popular alternative, the sport has to come back. The sport is in decline for numerous reasons but to bring it back, I think we need to do the following:
<br>
<br>A) ADVERTISE, ADVERTISE, ADVERTISE, - get the media involved...especially at times like now, a little fun news would be very welcome (granted, it's pretty cold outside). I see results for monohull events in the paper from time to time. Only once do I recall an event in the paper where cats were involved.
<br>B) Find/Make accessible and friendly cat locations so that it is easier for the family with 2.5 kids to go out and sail for an afternoon.
<br>C) Open up to beginners and youths
<br><br><br>[color:blue][b]Jake
<br>[color:blue][b]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
<br>[color:blue][b]Hobie 18 (???)

In reply to Keith who suggested that comparing Power boat sales to sailboat sales was apples to oranges.
<br>
<br>Okay, I'll change the comparison. There are 15 new J105s sailing in the Bay area this year. They start at around $80,000 if memory serves and you will spend $5,000 every two years or so on average for sails.
<br>
<br>The recent Annapolis Boat Show saw 4 FARR 395s sold at a ticket of about $330,000 each.
<br>
<br>Three's plenty of money out there.
<br>
<br>The last example I'll site is here in Newport Beach where we sold 17 Harbor 20s in 1999. They cost $27,000 on average and are a two person day sailor.
<br>
<br>You just have to meet the market requirements and there are plenty of customers with plenty of money out there to spend.
<br>
<br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com<br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

There are some great points made in these posts. I see it as a combination of all these factors with an emphasis on the cultural differences between the US and Europe where sailing is prospering.
<br>
<br>1) The American attitude is I want to buy it on Friday and use it on Saturday. You cant enter sailing this way and succeed, there is a pretty big learning curve to be good at it.
<br>
<br>2) Sailing promotion is done by word of mouth buy the sailing community. No advertizing or media coverage is done to entice the uneducated public on the existence of sailing in general. Late night coverage of the Swedish match racing circuit and mega bucks portrayal of the Americas cup does not help.
<br>
<br>3) Support of entry programs. The French for example have an organized level of advancement to bring the new sailors up from entry level to the high performance cats. In the US this does not exist. This forum is usually a good indicator of how the advancement system in the US works. The entry level and lower performance cats are poo pooed and generaly put down in a high percentage of instances. One boat will never be good for every person. An enty level boat needs to be an enrty level boat. If the person sailing it likes the sport and grows beyond the boat they will move up. Especially if there is growth in the sport where they can sell the lower level boat to another new person without taking too big a bath on the sale.
<br>
<br>
<br>My 2 cents.
<br>
<br>Matt<br><br>

Hi, Mark,
<br>I honestly believe the guy ho drops 80k on a boat is looking to cruise, go weekends, join the local yaht club, etc. He's/she's not the same market segment as guys who want to stuff into a wetsuit and yahoo. Note that excepitons must exist to that general difference, and you're in a unique position to attract all of them to your dual purpose 'place'.
<br>
<br>Yes there are always more "expensive" segments "above" any segment one analyses. But to suggest that the mere existance of such negates any consideration of price within a segment is oversimplification. By that reasoning, Hyundai shouldn't price-position vs their competition simply because some totally different people will shell out 170k for a Lamborgini. Moreover, ab initio, they shouldn't even have considered whether there's a segment for their afordable product, and just fold up their tent retroactively. Honda started out in cars that way also. "The last new car under 2k" in 1976!!!
<br>
<br>Regards,
<br>
<br>Ed Norris
<br>
<br> <br><br>

I really believe it's just about as simple as that. (In America, that is.)
<br>
<br>Your market, Mark M, let me guess: a person of 20-40, average to high income, wants something exciting at affordable price.
<br>
<br>BEFORE there were jetskis or windsurfers, there were the Hobies. (Aside: It was a total coincidence that Hobie jumped in at the right time with the right cost and marketing strategy. If NACRA had been there first, we'd all have started out with 5.2s instead of 16s.)
<br>
<br>Then, the windsurfer came out. These are of course not only faster than cats, they're cheaper (or were), easier to rig. Not necessarily easier to master, but for the price, lots of bang for the buck.
<br>
<br>Then.... the death knell: the introduction of affordable jetskis. Easy to rig, not too expensive, jump on and go, fast, don't have to worry about where to set up. I really, truly, believe, that the same demographic who used to sail 16s in the late '70s early '80s are the folks who have jetskis now. One can make similar arguments about kids and video games...
<br>
<br>Combine that with the loss of beach availabillity and the other factors you mention, and voila: the decline of cat popularity.
<br>
<br>Incidentally, I don't think the availability of cheap used boats is necessarily a bad thing. That's where the novices and youth jump onto the bandwagon, and if they like it, they'll move to newer boats as they can afford them.<br><br>

Ed:
<br>
<br>Thank you as always for replying to my post and also to you Tami. The J105 or J80 group is really a daysailing group that is looking for a closed class one design that offers simplicity and fun for under $100,000. They just don't make very good cruising boats. The other example I'll give is the Melges 24 group. Here is a $50,000 boat that sold like hot cakes. Fun action at a reasonable price and a class filled with the whose who of sailing.
<br>
<br>Our demographics are actually quite different from what Tami suggests. The average age is just over 50. Their income level is upper income to very high income.
<br>
<br>Let's examine one more class that has seen extraordinary success. The FARR 40. There are as many FARR 40s sailing at Key West Race week as there are sailing at Hobie 20 nationals. FARR saw a need for a tight one design boat that is crewed by less than 20 like the SC70s require and designed a fun around the buoys boat that features the top sailors in the world on a weekly basis.
<br>
<br>Lastly the F31R ($110,000) has outsold every beach catamaran class here in Southern California in the last year.
<br>These guys want to put on a spray suit and rage! They are the beach cat crowd who have gone to the next level.
<br>
<br>Many (almost all) are guys that sailed NACRA 5.8s and Hobie 20s around here for years.
<br>
<br>Again, cost isn't the limiting factor in my view. There is money available if their is a product that meets the consumer's demand for ease of use, quick set up and good racing as well as a dynamic and challenging boat relative to what they have been sailing.
<br>
<br>As always, thank you for your well thought out replies.
<br>
<br>Mark Michaelsen<br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

Well, again, there's money out there, but do the people that want beach cats have that money? Some do. A lot of others need to buy a house, car, clothe children, etc. As far as getting the folks who buy Melges and such to cross over, you'd have to find a way to interest them. Most are not interested in multis. The Corsair analogy is close. Lots of people can't begin to afford them either. The point that many started in 5.8s or H20s and now they're sailing higher end - my point exactly. Hook 'em low, maybe they'll stay with long enough to buy the expensive stuff. How many people wanting to start out in the sport go right out and buy a $100k day sailor? Even in the keelboat ranks they'll probably go find a used J-24 to get into it. But eventually if the entry point is above the reach the high end will start to dry up as the over 50 folks turn to over 70 and beyond.<br><br>Keith, Annapolis, Md.
<br>H-18
<br>Northstar 500 (monoslug)
<br>www.wrcra.org

The bottom line is that:
<br>
<br>A) There is plenty of money out ther
<br>B) We need to identify and set up beaches on lakes and oceans where the public can store catamarans at a low cost and that is convenient and condusive to sailing.
<br>C) Equipment that is dependable and functional nees to be made available through a single source so that people can get their hands on a fun boat at a reasoanble cost that doesn't take a scientist to sail.
<br>
<br>MM<br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

Speaking as the "early-20's person breaking into cat racing" I can agree wholeheartedly that it's a big jump to make. a huge investment in time, and money.
<br>
<br>yes, $1000 is a huge investment to someone in their early 20's!
<br>
<br>so you need fresh blood to flesh out the fleets? I see that some fleets promote and support youth programs, which is a great investment in the future. However, the problem with this strategy is that it takes 10 years to measure the effects on the sport, and it can backfire because of the expense imposed on the parents, which can trickle down to an attitude that turns the kid off the sport in the end. I played hockey as a kid, and I know EVERY SINGLE PARENT at one time or another wished to god that their kid would get sick of it and pick up a less expensive sport. I think if you're going to keep the kids in the sport for more than two years, the parents need to think that it's at least PARTLY their idea.
<br>
<br>I also challenge the precept that these new catsailors must start out as non-sailors. why not concentrate on converting some monohullers?
<br>
<br>my point:
<br>
<br>We must market the sport at the collegiate level! It's true that most schools run strictly 420's or V15's, but there are a number of schools that have more diverse fleets, and the great thing about it is that they invite dozens of other schools to come and compete on those boats.
<br>
<br>Imagine! a manufacturer could LOAN fifteen two-man boats to the USNA or USCGA or any of the big-fleet schools for a couple of weeks. they invite twelve other teams to a regatta. each team brings an A and a B crew, plus alternates....
<br>
<br> that's 72 RACING-ORIENTED sailors putting the boats through their paces for a weekend, PLUS the exposure of the host institution and their team and student body! and that's just ONE regatta! imagine the numbers if this fleet of loaners were to tour from school to school over the course of a season!
<br>
<br>I'm not saying it would come without cost for the manufacturer. collegiate folks race HARD, so at the end of that season the sails would be worthless and the hulls would have some "character" left on them, BUT in two or three years most of those sailors are out of school, establishing lives, and looking for a way to feed the racing addiction they acquired in school. they'll buy used boats, of course, but that's GOTTA percolate its way into the new boat market pretty quickly.
<br>
<br>anyway, if I were a marketing rep for hobie or performance, I'd be looking into it. seems like a no-brainer.<br><br>

The UCLA AQUATIC center program here in Los Angeles has taken this concept to heart. They are offering a FREE introductory sail to anyone interested in learning how to sail catamarans and they have a great Hobie program in place for those who are interested in converting from a monohull to a catamaran!
<br>
<br>MArk Michaelsen<br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

Mark,
<br>
<br>Your heart's in the right place, but I think you've talked yourself into a fantasy about how "there is plenty of money out there",
<br>
<br>I wholeheartedly support your comment "B" about sailing venues, and I fundamentally agree with your "C" comment about fun boats at reasonable costs, but the capitalist in me can't stomach the "available through a single source" part. but that's another post.
<br>
<br>with regard to the sales of these big boats; you've got the data in front of you, and I don't dispute it. I do question its application to the beachcat crowd, and I'm not just talking demographics, because you're absolutely right that the people buying skiboats, trawlers, and big one-design sailboats are NOT the same people that will buy beachcats. I'm talking about how $100k is spent vs. how $10k is spent.
<br>
<br>In a vein similar to that of the demographic issue, spending $40k, $75k, and $100k on something is VERY different from spending $10k
<br>
<br>people buying a $100k F31 are:
<br>1. people with LOTS of disposable income,
<br>
<br>or2. people with long-established credit who can afford to take out a loan, and can justify this action by considering the boat a substantial investment that they will enjoy for many many years.
<br>
<br>it's been my observation that people with tons of disposable income never consider spending any of that income on relatively small-ticket items like beachcats. if a rich guy's going to buy a boat, he's going to buy an EXPENSIVE rich-guy boat, not a beachcat.
<br>
<br>for people in more typical financial circumstances, it's difficult to spend $10k in one lump sum on a weekend (or, as you pointed out.... once-every-third-weekend) toy. it's almost ridiculous to justify FINANCING such a purchase! Therefore, I surmise that THAT kind of money is NOT "out there".
<br>
<br>this may be FURTHER apples and oranges to some eyes, but as an architect, I offer the Homeowner's Analogy:
<br> most homeowners will take out a $100k loan to renovate their home before they'll consider spending $5000 on new kitchen appliances.
<br>
<br><br><br>

Being a recent college grad ('99) from a school with a small saling program, I can honestly say that is one of the best ideas i've heard.
<br>
<br>Introducing cats at that stage will have a tremendous impact on the growth of our sport. There just is no comparison to a 420 vs. a modern cat (or even a not so modern cat). I sailed 420's for a couple years in school, and they are such pigs to sail. Plus, collegiate sailors are used to travelling for regattas and making a significant time commitment to sailing. If you could get one of the manufacturers to sponser an event on each coast, I truly think collegiate sailors will be thinking about sailing cats when they graduate. Performance and Hobie take note!!!
<br>
<br>Now, I'm kinda curious to the number of clubs around that have year round storage for cats. It would be nice to create a listing of these so that people will be aware of them and could make referels to folks who were thinking about starting sailing but were sitting on the fence due to this issue. What do ya all think?
<br>
<br>Todd Berget
<br>Tornado USA655<br><br>

I submit that PWCs refute this concept that people aren't spending intermediate sums for a weekend "FUN TOY". As they rapidly have been banned they have lost favor with the consumers as it took more and more time and effort to use them.
<br>
<br>Motor cross bikes are often $5000-10,000 but are still selling in areas where their use is still allowed.
<br>
<br>There still seems to be an adequate amount of money out there for companies producing products that are in demand for whatever reason.
<br>
<br>MM<br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

I think that the largest potential target group are not people that are sailing already but people in their mid 20's that are the rock climbers, the mountain bikers, the motorcross bikers, kayakers, even the jetskiiers. These people have money but haven't heard the first thing about sailing. This year, I've encouraged one kayaker and a skateboarder / mountainbiker into seriously looking into getting a cat just from a few good trips crewing. NONE of these people knew the first thing about sailing and barely new catamarans existed - including myself about two years ago.
<br>
<br>I was invited to a monohull regatta the spring of 2000 and caught the sailing bug. I quickly began to recall that Hobie 16 my dad had in the late 70's and started looking deeper into catamarans. Two months later, I had a dirty Nacra 5.2 sitting in my driveway and I refound a whole new world of which I am literally obsessed. I firmly believe that getting recognition of our sport to these kind of people will bring in a substantial amount of new blood and enthusiasm into the sport.<br><br>[color:blue][b]Jake
<br>[color:blue][b]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
<br>[color:blue][b]Hobie 18 (???)

I have an opinionated view on this topic and even though some people indicate it is not about money I tend to disagree, especially with junior and youth sailing. When you look at sports such as soccer a parent can get there kids into it pretty easy and at a low cost, but for sailing one needs a boat, sailing gear, etc. etc. Another issue is time with sports like soccer you have local leagues and so parents do not have to travel to far to get their kids involved and for big events rides are supplied. With sailing you add up the money, time, and the technical aspects of sailing and it is quite intimidating. With soccer you win as a team, with sailing only a few get rewarded for winning or coming close to it. Kids love to bring home a trophy, ribbon, etc. Kids like getting something external for their efforts especially at an early age and with sailing events you don’t get these early re-enforcers. At an early age (Juniors – ages 6-12) I think the Sabot (to me the opti is way to expensive) or Access Dinghy (with the Access Dinghy juniors with and without disAbilities could race together) would work best to teach basic sailing technique and not scare the youngest of sailors, plus the boats are affordable. Then with youth sailors (ages 13-19) one could use the Hobie 16 (I am a H16 lover so I am biased) for team racing and the Wave for solo racing, once again both boats are affordable and the 16 is readily available used or new throughout the world – big plus). Also the Hobie 16 would allow youth with disAbilities to sail against AD sailors. I am of course always thinking of inclusive sailing for sailors with varying skills and ability levels as well as disAbility levels. Also my daughter (just turned 10) loves to sail with me and solo sail but she is the first to admit that sailing is no fun without other kids and so we should not forget the importance of the social aspects of getting kids involved in sailing.
<br>
<br>So that is my spin on the topic. The following article was in the recent Access Dinghy newsletter, which might shed some light on the fun factor.
<br>
<br>“You can’t catch me” – Idaho, USA
<br>
<br>My twin 6-year-old son, Devry, sailed the Access Dinghy 2.3 solo last Saturday and I was amazed how well he was able to sail it. When it was time to come in we tried to catch him on the Hobie 16 but he kept turning away from us when we got close to him. Just before he turned on a new course he would say “run, run as fast as you can, you can’t catch me I am the gingerbread man.” He would follow this statement with sticking out his tongue or waving at us along with a big cheesy smile. The Access Dinghy has to be the perfect kid’s boat. I was just so impressed with how well a 6-year-old could sail it and how much he loved to sail it. We did convince our son to finally sail to the beach. It’s a day I will not soon forget.<br><br>

If I might refocus the discussion back to catamarans for under $3,000 and why the general public doesn't go catamaran sailing.
<br>
<br>Again I think it is more about access than money. The juniors programs at all of our local clubs are sold out before the season begins. Junior sailing is alive and welll here in Southern California and there is lots of open community access to these programs even if you are not a member of a club yourself.
<br>
<br>The sabost are kept on convenient racks at the clubs. They are easy to access and easy to put away in a small amount of time. THIS is an example of "when sailing works!".
<br>
<br>The problem we seem to be having with catamarans sailing is that the storage and use space is time consuming. You can buy hobie 16s all day long here for under $500.00. They will need some work but for under $700 you can get sailing yet no one is using them. There is so little demand that charities will not accept the boats as they are almost impossible to sell!
<br>
<br>Time is the enemy and easy access and use are in my humble opinion the hurle we must clear to make the sport go again.
<br>
<br>MM
<br>http://www.sailingproshop.com<br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

This reiterates my point that the target group of people with the most potential are the active thrill seakers in their 20's and early 30's (I turned 30 last week so I had to put that in there) that don't know anything about cat sailing. Nice story.<br><br>[color:blue][b]Jake
<br>[color:blue][b]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
<br>[color:blue][b]Hobie 18 (???)