Boat price replies, support etc only on this subthread, please
<br>GEastment writes:
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<br>Interesting to hear the different points of view from the different continents, so thanks!
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<br>Thought I would chuck in my thoughts on the Australian scene, as I have observed the decline of the sport here.
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<br>First point to make is that much of the fleets that I sailed in when I was a kid (monos & a little bit of cats) were kids of parents who had started sailing in the post war dinghy boom- cheap home made one-design boats that hit the water in thousands. Mirrors, herons, etc. (Since then the fleets have shrunk and shrunk. I think this is at least in part because the boats became more complex, expensive and it was just harder to 'keep up' if you wanted to be competitive. It is interesting to see the new mono designs eat each other up, while classes like the heron here in aus make a bit of a comeback)
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<br>I think this provided the background for the cat boom in the 70's and 80's- a vaguely sailing literate public saw a cheap way to jump into the sport in the shape of the hobies and maricats etc. Mostly 14 footers that were fun and not too intimidating for the novice. Since that initial period we have gradually gotten more expensive and bigger and faster- now if you want to start in a 14 you almost have to sail alone around behind all the bigger boats- not very inviting! So the same goes for the cats as for the monos; those not going the 'whole hog' get left behind and end up dropping off. cf the thousands of 14ft cats sitting in backyards doing squat. (Exactly the same thing has happened to windsurfing here- when I was wave sailing in the 80's there was apparently 40 to 50 shops here in Sydney selling parts/ boards etc. Now there are two. It got more and more complex and the boards got shorter and the thing just evolved itself back onto the fringes).
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<br>As i reread the above, it is all a bit rambly, but I think there are a few valid obsevations... but what to do? I'm outta time, so might come back... but I believe the answer lies with a focus on clubs, not classes and dealers (though imp), a focus on junior sailing (the future, this is where the strong mono fleets come from, and a focus outside SMOD (single manufacturer one design) racing. One design, yes, but with open rules re sailmaker, parts etc...makes sailing cheaper as there is competition. (Having said that, H16 remains one of the only entry type boats you can but that has a decent fleet etc here in aus, so is a valuable boat for sailing here.)
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<br>Just some thoughts, hope they provoke thought.
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<br>I wonder what the original retail price of a hoby 14 was, in today's dollars? I know a website that does the calculations for you... Anyone know the original price, in the original dollars? <br><br>

Setup time/on the beach ideas only on this thread, please.
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<br>Set up time is cited as a factor in certain demo-psychographic segments. IN ONE subthread, can we press manufacturers to make 'speed kits' optional and somewhat reasonable. Murrays sells a couple o' packages, they get little PR, IMHO they are a pretty good investment.
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<br>I did an informal survey on "on the beach" storage, after a wonderfull time at SHBCC. (around the statue) Everyone was 'hot' till one guy said his 'old boat' rusted out in one season 'on the beach' and suddenly everyone went cool on the idea. Rebuttals, pleeze!!!
<br>Other ideas on Set up time? <br><br>

speed kits for boat setup? What are these? Are you talking about mast winches and the like? (this probably reiterates your point about publication of these items).<br><br>[color:blue][b]Jake
<br>[color:blue][b]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
<br>[color:blue][b]Hobie 18 (???)

nope. I meant Murray's sells you a baggie of quickpins, snapshackles etc custom chosen for your boat. Dealers should offer a "Quick setup" option including these items.
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<br>Further Education: Set -up tricks.
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<br>For example, I just this season started leaving the main blocks on my N5.0 (Factory blocks, no crime area, rain washes 'em clean etc) I just hook the clew hook onto the jib block bracket and knot the mainsheets loosly on the foot strap. Time saved, close eto 5 minutes. Stuffing the rest of my lines in the tramp bag, for another minute shaved off. I stopped coiling my wires on the tramp, now I drag 'em forward and loop a bungee through 'em, for another minute saved. I"m going to put another tiny hi-load block under my clew, so to leave my downhaul rigged all the time, for another minute. Clips on the ends instead ob tying a bowline around the trapeze tensioner shock for another minute. I use plastic 2" balls to attach my jib leads. snap shackles top and bottom of the jib.
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<br>What other quick-setup ideas can we assemble, package and distribute to dealers/manuf. as "quick-up" gear and training?
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I think Ed has asked some good questions and Mark Michealson has hit the nail on the head. I believe access and time are the most critical issues for sailing to grow as a sport in this country.
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<br>My family joined a yacht club when I was 13 years old. I quickly jumped right into the junior sailing program and soon had my own boat. The yacht club was my focal point for fun. If I was not sailing my boat, I was fishing, swimming, or playing football or frisbee with my friends. As I got more into sailing, it was a great place to hang out and play with my boat and enjoy the camaraderie of other sailors.
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<br>At this point in time, I am not a member of a yacht club. I have to trailer my boat and gear to a launch site, setup, and then go sailing. Luckily for me, I am currently using a state park where I can leave the boat overnight if I want to sail more than two days. The extra time required for boat setup and takedown definetly takes some of the attraction away from sailing every spontaneous opportunity. I also have sailboards that are alot easier for that occasion.
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<br>I am about to join a yacht club that has access to a decent launch site for beach cats. I will be able to keep my boat rigged and go sailing anytime with minimum hassle. I believe it will increase my time on the water exponentially and will be well worth the membership expense.
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<br>Most beach cat sailors who want to sail more and find themselves limited for time should look at yacht club membership. Most yacht clubs have aging memberships and are looking for new blood. There could be great opportunites to convert new sailors to the fun of multihull sailing. It's also too bad that our communities do not have public sailing facilities that would offer dry storage facilities. Several communities in this country do but it is quite the exception rather than the norm.
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<br>Regarding the PWC phenomenon, what can you say. I've only been on a jet ski once in my life and I was bored in 15 minutes. Many PWC operators (and that's a generous label at times) show alot of bad behavior on the water. In a culture where bullies are glorified at times, I don't think you are going to see PWC numbers go down anytime soon. <br><br>

As a fellow Gulf Coaster, I think the real issue is a place to keep a boat rigged. MS catters should be members of Ocean Springs YC or Long Beach YC (very affordable and great access). In FL, Fort Walton Yacht Club is a great site, Pensacola Yacht Club is nice but is a terrible launch for a cat.
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<br>Bob Hodges<br><br>

There's about three or four great ideas in there I've never heard of. There is book potential there (or a really nice manufacturer's boat manual).<br><br>[color:blue][b]Jake
<br>[color:blue][b]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
<br>[color:blue][b]Hobie 18 (???)

I know I am not really answering your question about the original retail price of a hoby 14 was, in today's dollars but I do know the current price for a Hobie 14 shipped to the USA is $6100.00.
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Thanks<br><br>

Bill Baldwin @ Hobie Cat USA recalls them to be $995. That matches my recollection as well and the price with a trailer was $1150.00.
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<br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>http://www.sailingproshop.com<br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

Okay, it's a little more than 3k. today. But 4.9k, all up w/trailer is a far cry from 10k. for the wave!!! That's price migration!!
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<br><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>What cost $1150.00 in 1971 would cost $4926.28 in 2000.
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<br>Source
<br>The pre-1975 data are the Consumer Price Index statistics from Historical Statistics of the United States (USGPO, 1975). All data since then are from the annual Statistical Abstracts of the United States. <p><hr></blockquote>
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<br>This from The Inflation Calculator
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I would have been smarter to ahve created independed threads, now every time one post is added this long thread pushes all the others of the page of out of attention.
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<br>Please plit up the threads in to new main threads.
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<br>Wouter<br><br>

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Of course you're right wouter, I just didn't want the 4 to get separated. perhapse Rick can 'promote' the entire "Traction" thread to it's own main thread. - since the comments are already coming, I shudder to attempt to 'migrate' them now myself.
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<br>Maybe you'd like to copy 'em all, then we'll ask Rick to delete my originals - sounds confusing.
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<br>** I know *** why don't you just get a better ISP!!!**** :-)
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<br>Just kidding, Wouter. But you can use the "back" button to navigate within any subthread.....
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<br>Ed
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<br><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by Ed Norris on 11/01/01 02:01 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

The HOBIE WAVE retails for $3795.00. I still think that is a fair price but I want to remind people that there are lots of boats here on the west coast that sell for under $1000 and are in good shape.
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<br>MM
<br>http://www.sailingproshop.com<br><br>Mark Michaelsen
<br>www.sailingproshop.com
<br>(800) 354-7245

Yeah, leave it for now, but when the discussion really starts going maybe a seperate forum is the best suited alternative if you want to keep the thread together. Rick is very willing to help you with that as he has helped us in the formula group.
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<br>Wouter<br><br>

OMIGOSH!
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<br>Where did I hear 10K???
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<br>I guess this answers my original question, "Why doesn't Hobie/Perf think it's a good idea to do a "starter boat"?"
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<br>Clearly they do think so. Now they need to be able, in my humble opinion, to be simple enough to sell like a snark, in a mass-market environment, and more simply upgradeable, like lego. The forum queries on installing some of the kits suggest this isn't perfected with the wave yet.
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<br>Regards,
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<br>Ed<br><br>to Email me, take the Ihatespam. out of my domain

Ed,
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<br>I thought That 10 K was remarkable in the first place for the Nacra 5.0 costs less and so does a Hobe 16 in EU. But more importantly this 10 K would buy you a A-cat look alike with double trapeze, jib and genaker too. There are no more goodies to add then. I think you know which type of boats I mean.
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<br>So maybe If we take of all that go fast stuff that was included in the 10 K we' ll lower the price by - 400 USD for jib - 1000 USD. get rig of that expensiveCarbon stick and get that only 4 kg's heavier alu stick - 1200 USD.
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<br>Total savings : 10.000 -2600 USD = 7400 USD for a double trapped boat that still sails with I-17R's and nacra 5.5 uni when soloed by an adult or crewed by two teenagers. two adults would still sail as fast as a hobie 16. The lightweight would make it rightable for kids especially is ricks righting pole is used.
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<br>And this boat would be properly upgradable to the really High performance that you're looking for.
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<br>Sorry to push this design but it was partly created just for this problem and therefor answers your question.
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<br>Wouter
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Bob,
<br>when they redid the harbor at Long Beach, it effectively cut out beachcat sailing from there. Almost all of the beachcat sailors from LBYC moved to OSYC. That's also why Slip to Ship is now held at OSYC.
<br>sea ya
<br>tami<br><br>

Hats off to the BIM guys, for a step in the right direction.
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<br>The BIM A -cat has the "upgradable all the way to top-end" thing locked up. But at 7,400 US, my gut feel is, it's one tier up from what I'm fumbling around for here.
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<br>The WAVE has the "economical entry level boat" thing locked up at 3,700 US, actually cheaper than the original H 14 after inflation adjustment. But even with jib and traps, it's still a tad short LOA and narrow of beam for upgrade all the way to "high end" Is there a traveler kit? Easy to put on? Is there a Downhaul kit? D-Wires kit, for prebend rig? I've sailed a wave, and it's a nice fun boat. Making the upgrade path a 'factory authorized" one allows some more performance while potentially preserving that "precisely one design" feeling you get when you know simply everything about the competition's boat is just like yours, so the "tiller nut" gets all the credit/blame. (I know, some value that rather less than others!!!)
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<br>Can either boat be Mass marketed? Mark commented to me that his inclination is to say, "No, you're just gonna have to have dealer support; training up a bunch of hourly employees at a Sporting Goods outlet will be daunting"
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<br>Can the assembly/setup challenges involved be simplified, mechanically? Howzabout a video? Telephone support? To expensive, right?
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<br>How about cutting in the nearerst Dealer for a slice of every "Outlet - sold" boat, provided they commit to providing support, and supplying the Dealer's name to the Outlet purchaser? Mark, do you think the residuals, upgrades, gear etc sales would make it worth your while to be called on for setup advice? I"m guessing such help would have to be strictly in your store, which limits it some, or does it? How about where there are no dealers nearby? Local cat club? I'd volunteer to help a newcomer setup in a second, so would most sailors, and Hobie could keep the money.
<br>(Only 'cause I'm too far away to be hurting Mark, or any dealer for that matter, who rightly should seek some reward if they were to do this as a business relaitonship supporting mass marketed hobie product. :-) )
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<br>Most of the above is probably useless, not worth the phosphors your screen is beaming into your eyes with. But If I can throw out admittedly dumb ideas, you guys can too... That's the first phase of brainstorming. Later we pick a few usefull plans out.
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<br>So lets hear some free associating!!!
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<br>Ed<br><br>(To Email me, take the Ihatespam. out of the domain in my displayed email.