Hi Ed, You need to get more info about the Wave before you write anything else about it since you are terribly misinformed. The Wave does retail for $3800 and can be had for around $3200 after the Nationals in December at Rick's Place (ten boats this year, at least). I write "around" because Hobie likes to set the price only at the last minute to make it harder for interested buyers so they have not set the price yet as far as I know. I bought my last one there last year for $3200 after sailing in the regatta. Also the boat does come with "upgradable features" as you ask for in the form of a jib kit, a spinnaker kit, and a back rest. There is no need for diamond wires as the sail is about as roachy as you could make it and it works fine as is. Also the main desirable feature of the boat is its simplicity and quick rigging time so you would not want to mess that up.
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<br>Also it is DOES NOT have the low price locked up in North America. The Mystere 4.3 is still available with main, jib, and spinnaker w/snuffer for only $3400 US. Only delivery is extra and, speaking from experience, you can get a pretty good rate per boat when you ship 30 at a time! This is a fully outfitted boat with top notch equipment like Harken airblocks, Ronstan autoratchets, extendable hiking stick, etc. I have owned and raced a cat since 1980 and this boat is an incredibly low priced fun maker. Mystere sells a comparably equipped 5.0 for $5400 U.S. When word got around here last winter that we were getting an order together people of all experience levels and incomes joined in. So I know that price IS an issue and having a good product was a bonus (people had already sent there money in without having even seen the boats). When they got them they were nearly awestruck at their good fortune to have received such a nice boat and equipment. Manufacturer support is just as awe inspiring! Ever hear of Hobie or Nacra offering free sails to owners who raced at enough regattas? Well next week I am going to pick up free spinnakers for the owners who raced at least seven regattas during the sailing season! There were a number of boats that were barely used during the season for the various reasons already mentioned in this string and then some. But I have not seen another boat in a very long time get so many people out sailing, especially kids and females, and I have not seen any other boat get so cat sailors to try a spinnaker. The cries went from "that spinnaker is too big" early in the season to "can we get a bigger spinnaker?" later in the season as their fear turned to fun! So if people do invest the time in the boat they learn quickly and get hooked. Most of the boats with very little use were rigged with masts up at a club with easy water access. More fodder for the mind.
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Mike, I'm so glad to read your post. So I'm not crazy, in my original post, to suggest that a 3K-0r-so boat is a good starter? I thought it would be, and kinda thunk I was missing something. Good to know otherwise.
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<br> BTW, I wasn't 'writing about' the wave, I was asking about it. The only two statements I made were to the effect that a) posts on this bb indicated some hassles with an upgrade kit being counter-intuitive, if memory serves, and to say that I enjoyed my sail on a Wave. I guess "locked up " was a poor choice of words. I truely meant "Locked up" as in 'got it done' not "Locked all others out" Shoulda said locked in or accomplished or such. 'swhat I get for dashing off a few graphs on company time w/out editing... sincere thanks for clarifying.
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<br>Wish I knew more about the Mystere before I paid 4200 for my then 2 year old N 5.0. Somebody please tell me I didn't do too badly.
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<br>Okay, so how do we address the 'mass marketing' questions in my post???
<br>Mike, what's your opinion of Mark's opinion that "it takes a dealer"?
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<br>How about product placement? Thomas Crown may be portrayed and described by his luscious costar as "wrecking" a Formula 40(???) and Kevin of California had his hovering trimaran (remember the scene where he literally lifts all of it over a rope by hiking out to windward?) Neither did much for Beachcats.
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<br>But howzabout a budweizer commercial showing two guys beachcatting... on 5-6 meter boats, regular 20-30 yr old "thrill seekers" (no gills allowed, no zillionaires need apply) dragging out and downing a frosty with bikini chiks? Maybe a Worrell re-enactment theme? Couldn't Hobie or their Parent, (Northrop-Gruman???) pay some director to put a beachcat in a bit somewhere?
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<br>'Nother take on support for 'mass market' starter boats. Hypothetically:
<br>1. Manufacturer, dealers, catclubs, and Big-Box sport-goods stores cooperate. Winners all around, as Manufacturer sells boats, dealer sells upgrades, sailing gear and eventual trade-ups. Cat clubs make themselves available to assist with on-beach support, gain new members, sailing buddies, maybe tiny extra discounts, you name it. Dealer does phone only support and refers hands-on problems to cat clubs. All this outlined to customers in the Big Box Sporting goods store. Manufacturer promises dealers only 'starter' boats to be sold this way. Probably, high end is way too support intensive for this venue anyway.
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<br>Comments???
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<br>I know it's a stretch, your Ideas can't be half as thin, so be brave and post 'em!
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<br>(To Email me, take the Ihatespam. out of the domain in my displayed email.

Ed-
<br>If you have portholes on your boat- Just "feed" (stuff) the shrouds, trap lines, forestay in your hulls. No bunji and if you do in a repetitive manner (ie. stuff the shroud in first, then the forestay, then the trap lines and remove in opposite order) they don't end up tangled (except the trap rings sometimes but it's not a problem).
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<br>Kirt Simmons<br><br>Kirt Simmons
<br>Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48

Mike Fahle how do I locate a dealer or importer about the Mystere 4.3. Sounds like a great deal! I love the Wave but it sounds like the 4.3 would even be better. Please email me info at [email protected]. Thanks! Has the Mystere Co. had any experience with the 4.3 competing against the Dragon? Even so the 4.3 is less expense than the Dragon ($5,495 with spin).<br><br>

_<br><br>(To Email me, take the Ihatespam. out of the domain in my displayed email.

(primarily trailer-launched suggestions)
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<br>Instead of disconnecting the tiller extension and stuffing it in the box, just bungee it in two places to the mast. this is enough to keep the rudders from swinging on the road. saves a minute or two on each end.
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<br>if you have an RF setup for your jib, I had good success this season with NOT taking the jib down to trailer. leave it furled (just ease the halyard tension to avoid shape deterioration) and cover it with one of those snorkel covers from murray's, which protects it from road wind and UV. bungee to the mast with sailties in a few places. saves 5 or 6 minutes on each end, but it does have the drawback of increasing the weight of the mast when stepping.<br><br>

Why does Mystere International show a 3.7 on their web site, but not a 4.3? I see a 4.3, used, in the Catsailor classifieds.
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<br>GARY<br><br>GARY

If trailering a distance I've found a quick way to protect my transoms on my Hobie 14 is to leave the entire rudder system hooked up, I just remove the bolts that go through the bottom (connected to the boat) rudder casting- Leave the bottom castings and pins on the hulls, fold the rudders over each other, along the crossbar (wrap in large, old beach towel) with tiller along, bunji in a "bundle" and go. No worry about your rudders hanging out there and NO destructive stresses on your transoms! I have my Taipan trailer set up so the beach wheels serve as the rear trailer beam and cradles. The rear mast stand "plugs into" a socket at the rear of the trailer with one pin and holds wheels, rear of boat, and rear of mast. Just remove mast stand, slide/roll boat back, tie wheels off at shrouds and roll boat rest of the way off trailer, reverse for loading-
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<br>Kirt <br><br>Kirt Simmons
<br>Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48

Hi Ed, I like the tone of your reply. You come across to me as a guy who is sincerely trying only to get more participation with no outside or hidden agenda. I can relate to that! I teach the adult sailing class each year at my local sailing club and give rules seminars and run a great race each year with my sailing and life partner, Carol. I do this to "give back" to sailing. Same goes for the volunteer hours (and hours and hours) that I put in this year to coordinate the Mystere boat order. I like Mystere because you get so much for your money and I'm Known to be frugal! I like all nearly all makes of boats but feel like I cannot afford most of them as I would rather fund an early retirement! Next week I will have a long talk with Yves Sansoucy, President of Mystere, while I am there about these issues to see what they are planning to help get more people into a starter cat. I will report on what I learn when I get back a week from tomorrow.
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I'm sorry Mr. Sail-s but if you want me to help you out you need to identify yourself. I thought this forum was supposed to be for people who identified themselves so I am biased against someone who still uses a made-up name here, especially if they are asking for help. I'll be glad to help if I know who I am dealing with; is that fair? <br><br>

Mike,
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<br>this is Gary Friesen. I am a Mystere sailor and the inventor of SoloRight.
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<br>I am sorry that you feel suspicious of sail-s. There really is no need to feel that way, particularly on this new forum which can track those who post messages.
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<br>You can find out who he is by clicking on his name, then clicking on "all posts by sail-s. You will see that several of his first posts are directly related to your concern in that he is happy that annymous posters will have a hard time trying to pull their pranks here on the new forum.
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<br>You will also find out that "sail-s" is actually Miles Moore and his web site is www.sail-s.com.
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<br>I think you two are going to like each other. You both are promoting the sport and the entry level as well.
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<br>Miles once was slated to buy a Taipan, but backed away for various reasons.
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<br>GARY<br><br>GARY

speaking as a (hardcore) racer in div 16 nahca,204 we all leave our sticks up, and take them down to go to regatta's every-other weekend. one or two of us go to wildwood every year many more would go, but it's too much money!
<br>the time it takes to put your boat on a trailor is a silly reason not to go to a regatta, it lonly takes me 20 min from water to trailor and the more complicated boats take 30-40 min, during which time we all talk to eachother about, what else, how to sail better.
<br>bottom line, wildwood costs to much, when you add in food, hotel (don't forget wife and kid), gas, spending money ect.
<br>by the way I've heard nothing but good things about the regatta, but I would rather spend my allowance going to one of my own division regattas.(I would have to skip 2 of our events to attend wildwood) for money reasons
<br>cheech
<br>sorry Tim D in syracuse NY
<br><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by cheech on 11/03/01 01:33 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

What other demographic/psycographic groups can we invite into "our" sport?
<br><br><br>(To Email me, take the Ihatespam. out of the domain in my displayed email.

What strategies do you think would work to rope in different kinds of people - - think about your favorite candidate 'new' group, or a group who isn't new but which you think you might know how to reach and excite more members to join their homologues in our community (sorry, homologues = fellow members of a segment) ...
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<br>Where do they shop, recreate, get news, give opinions (online?).
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<br>What kind of messsage do you think will find resonance (excitement; competition; fun; new friends; eternal youth; etc.)
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<br>Watch the ad campaigns in your daily life (since they're *()#^E% unavoidable anyway) and try to reverse-engineer them (ie take 'em apart in your mind to see how and why they work, and on whom) then see if they apply to our sport. See if the segment of the market they're aimed at might sail cats.
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<br>*****People are vacationing closer to home now... a weekend catsailing is more vacation to me than a week in a (boatless) resort, in my actual literal experience.*******
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<br>RICK, time to market Rick's place OUTSIDE our community a little. Hook up with a specialist in vacation RE and sell timeshares or something, if you're actually still considering selling that lovely place. ("Selling Paradise" can you really DO that?)
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<br>I'm asking all this because there's a lot of you guys out there, and, not to be too flattering here, but you're collectively and as individuals smarter and more creative than the average bears. With enough fairly good brains racking themselves for this kind of idea, we'll hopefully get a few dozen contributions, one of which just might get us some new blood.
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<br>Regards,
<br>Ed Norris<br><br>(To Email me, take the Ihatespam. out of the domain in my displayed email.

Special Subgroup to consider with any new group you suggest:
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<br>KIDS are recognized by marketing pro's as spending a significant fraction of the family's disposable income. Whatever demo-/psyco- graphic group you suggest, think about how to appeal to THAT group's kids, too, as a separate effort' also what to the grownups on behalf of their cods will work best on that group.
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<br>ie. Baby-boom echo kids are a BIG demographic. I"m guessing here the 'leading edge" is just getting old enough to be worth planning how to get their parents to buy 'em a boat that will do as a "kids cat", new or used. (a "< 5.0 meter" like the 14's, Dragons, 4.3 Mystere, Waves hope-I-didn't-miss-your-pet-boat-no-offense-intended-yes-I-know-these-boats-aint-just-for-kiddies-your-results-may-vary-actual-california-mileagewillbelowerstuntdriveronclosedroaddon'ttrythisathome) Boomers value Education, personal development (responsibility, self confidence, self esteem, self reliance) etc. Telling them these things about catsailing's benefits for their kids is usefull. It wouldn't work on 20-30 yr old "thrill seekers" unless they have 8-12 yr old kids.
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<br>What do you tell the kids about sailing?? Who's got a kid out there who likes it and can tell us why the kid likes it???
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<br>What the kid expected before he tried it, and after?
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<br>Who's got a 'conversion' story.. reluctant kid with bad feelings or little interest who then tried it and loves it to pieces?
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<br>How'd you get that kid to try it?
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<br><br><br>(To Email me, take the Ihatespam. out of the domain in my displayed email.

I am the pragmatic type. If anyone wants to really make a difference, individually, then here are some things that anyone could do:
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<br>1. Put together a boat order like I did early this year. You just let people know that you are coordinating an order, what the features of the boat are and why you are doing it, what the details are for ordering, etc. etc. You will need to find a delivery location and set a date and try to get the owners involved as much as possible. In our case, one new owner set up a website for us and continues to take care of that site on a volunteer basis
<br> (see http://teamteets.dhs.org/Mystere/M43.html). Basically you do all the things a dealer would do but you do it for free to keep the costs low and develop personal responsibility and owner involvement.
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<br>2. Volunteer to help an existing youth group or junior sailing class. There are several around my area and they love to have volunteer help, donated boats, or rides on cats, etc. If there are no groups in your area then contact Art Stevens of the U.S. Sailing multihull council and see how you can help him promote these things on a national level or bring his national efforts to your community.
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<br>3. Get your own suitable small cat and make it available for others to sail at local regattas. Until Carol and I travelled around the OCRA regattas with our Waves most racers had not even seen them, let alone sailed one. Then after trying ours, several people bought their own and/or came to the Nationals to race them.
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<br>These are things that anyone can do to make a difference directly and immediately. I recommend keeping a long term perspective to avoid burnout - if you realize in advance that some of it will be unpleasant then you can effectively manage to still enjoy the overall experience and realize that you have made a positive difference. Besides, it makes another way to rationalize adding to the fleet!
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<br>P.S. The use of the internet and e-mail makes #1 feasible - I would not have wanted to do that without e-mail! So anyone interested should have e-mail availability and make sure you let them know that they must regularly check it for messages!
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I would focus on the mental shaping in a safe environment (water) aspect.
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<br>I found sailing to be very shaping. It teaches effectiveness (No time to argue needlessly in a race). Respect, for other sailors on the water (the old laws of seamanship, picking up a "swimmer" is more important than racing), Respect for the nature around you. The importance of preparation, before the race, etc etc etc.
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<br>Wouter<br><br>

Wouter<br><br>

Hi, I thought I would get my 2 cents in as well (since everyone else has:-). I bought a used Tornado 2 summers ago for $6000 Canadian, pretty close to $4000 US. I'm 35 yrs old and have sailed all my life. I'm reminded to be thankfull for Granpa's foresight in buying the beach lot all those years ago when reading about people's difficulties in accessing H2O.
<br>To get to one of the points, I was EXTREMELY disappointed in the complete lack of sailing coverage on Canadian and U.S. tv during the Sydney olympics. If I'm not mistaken, there wasn't any. It was so bad here that neither of the two major Edmonton newspapers listed sailing results. I don't know if there is any way to influence tv coverage, but with all of the 24 hour sports networks out there, there has to be some way to raise the profile of the sport. Perhaps a mass email before a major event would have some impact? There seems to be lots going on in the world of sailing, but you would never know it by what gets covered in the media in this neck of the woods (could have something to do with the 10 months of winter I guess). I don't think the sport can grow if no one is aware of its existance.
<br>Anyway, its back to work for me. Let me know if I'm out to lunch as far as watchiing sailing on tv, I don't get ESPN on Satelite. <br><br>

Ed,
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<br>I've been thinking a good bit about how to market cat sailing to any particular target group. It's not going to work to staple a flyer to a tree on a mountain bike trail. Maybe some coverage in these genre focused magazines? (unlikely). I do think we can be smarter about marketing the regattas. I can't believe that a news company (television or newspaper) wouldn't want to run a story on the 180 high performance catamarans racing on Lake Hartwell in April! Give these guys footage, let them take footage, get an onboard camera (Heck, I'd do a nose-over just for the footage on that one!).
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<br>This doesn't finish the job however. There MUST be an organization, a number, a website, etc. that the news program / newspaper can refer to .... i.e. "If you are interested in learning more about this kind of sailing, call (864) 123-4567 or visit www.showmecatsailing.com". This new organization should be strictly and simply motivated to bring new people into the sport - hook them up with volunteers across the country that will take people for free demo rides, online technical information, classes, etc. I’ll definitely sign up to give rides or work within such an organization – I bet there are quite a few more. All of Rick's efforts with catsailor.com are tremendous and it is a vast and irreplaceable community - but we need something simpler, focused, and unbiased for this kind of task. There's not much advertising dollar there to fund a site like that, so it would probably have to get funding from a larger organization or start it's own (again - unlikely). Just a thought.
<br><br><br>[color:blue][b]Jake
<br>[color:blue][b]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
<br>[color:blue][b]Hobie 18 (???)