Hello!

I'm thinking about getting my first cat (don't tell my wife!) and have done some research on this good forum. My experience in sailing so far is with a Force 5 dinghy (like a Laser). Right now I'm comfortable up to about 15 knots. Under 25 hours total sailing exp.

Here are my concerns:

Getting the Right Cat.... I probably will have under 3k to spend. I'll be solo 90% and I weigh 180. Will be sailing on a Lake Whatcom to start with, then the San Juan Islands which are connected to the Pacific as I live in Bellingham, WA. Water temp is 55 degrees at it's hottest, 45 in winter. Already got a 6.5mm wetsuit.

Solo Mast Stepping.... Have read people do it all the time, but it's difficult to visualize until I see a boat.

Capsize Recovery.... I've read about different solo systems. Seems this can be done without too much of a problem. What's the 'Hawaiian system'? Have read about sealed masts, mast floats, etc.

Heavy Weather.... Haven't seen much about reefing the main. Heard about a furling jib. Understand that would be nice. Can any cat be retrofitted with this? A big fear would be having to sail home in 30+ knots with huge sails.

Wings.... This seems like a real nice idea. Can any cat have them? How about making or having them made? Saw a price of over $800 for some. Seems steep. What are the pros and cons of these guys.

Learning to Sail.... How different is sailing a cat compared to a dinghy? Any places from Seattl north to learn or demo? Dealers?

From what I've read, a Nacra 5.5 or smaller would work, or a Prindle 16 or smaller. And of course a Hobie 16 or smaller. Seems the Hobie is the least favored but cheapest and most plentiful.

In the meantime, I'll keep reading and following eBay.

Cheers,
Danno

Whew...slow down boy!

Solo on a catamaran means that you need something 18' or less. Less length typically means less weight (sometimes) so shorter should be easier to right from capsize solo. There's a ton of these out there for less than $3k. The important thing to consider is bouyancy if you seriously intend to sail with multiple people on board.

Solo mast stepping - not really a big deal but it will require some practice. You can usually find someone to assist with the more critical moments instead.

I think the Hawaiian system is a loose, large diameter, bunji that resides under the trampoline on each side of the boat. If capsized, you grab the bunji and pull it out to it's extents while you lean out to right the boat. It really offers no advantages over a simple righting line other than speed. A righting pole, like Rick's system, gives you more leverage and ability to right the boat solo.

Not many reefing mains available for catamarans. We have a huge amount of control over sail shape and can sail in a very wide range of wind conditions as a result. However, roller furling jib does come in handy if you are sailing solo. Any boat can be upgraded to roller furling for about $300 (pricing varies depending on quality). Hobie 18s have always had roller furling jibs and may be a consideration. Most other boats offered from the factory with standard roller furling are F18, I20, ....gee. cant't think of anymore.

Wings are nice. but you're right that they are expensive. Hobie 18sx has wings (not the standarda TheMightyHobie18 mind you) and the Hobie 17. They can be a drag (pun intended) if you fly a hull too high - hence most of the modern constructed boats do not offer them.

Difference compared to a dingy...there's upwind, downwind, reaching and that's all the same. Sail trim, tell tales, etc. no different. The two biggest differences you will find on the catamaran are A) speed B) fun! Seriously, if you understand the basics, and understand the nuances behind righting a capsized catamaran (do a search on this forum), it's a piece of cake. Always keep in mind at every moment what you will do if you suddenly get overpowered because it happens quickly on a cat. For now, think about it as simply: Do you steer left or right?

The Hobie 16 is a good boat as is the 18...Nacra 5.2, Hobie 17 (primarily solo), Hobie 18, Nacra 5.5, Inter 17, Solcat, Supercat 17....the list goes on and on.

First off I just wanna say welcome to sailing. Force 5's ar ekinda cool, I've been on one, 15 knots seemed to be when the one I was on just started to get fast. Anyhow, lets start with gerneal stuff.

I don't know anyone who reefs the mainb on a beachcat, although I have seen sails with reef points so i guess people do do it. Catamarans have a traveler that runs the entire leagnth of the back beam. This traveler is what the main sheet attaches too, so in heavy air, all you do is travel out.

Any boat can be retro-fitted with a jib furling system, however, the parts are pretty pricy, so if you want this I would say to look for one with the system already in place, (I've seen this mainly on hobies).

Wings are cool, and for the most part they are designed on a boat specific level, but if you are handy and get your eyes on a set, I see no reason why you could not desiegn some yoruself, just make sure you have no proble bouncing on them a little when you are testing them. I really don't see many cons to wings, they are comfortable, they give you more leverage to hike from, and that leeward wing seems to really help keep you from letting the hull fly up too far. But like you said, they are pricy for a manufacture's set.

OK righting the boat is an exceedingly important skill. I really recomend Rick White's book "Catamaran Racing for the 90's" Its really well written and explains alot about boat handling, including how to right the boat. There is a degree of technique involved in this, as wiht everything catamarans. Its completely doable on your own, but it helps to have someone show you, and in leu of a real person, this book does a really good job.

ON HOBIES: Ok, so the thing to watch out for on hobies, especially 16's are those narrow little bannana shape hulls. I would be very reluctant to take a hobie 16 outside a bay or lake into any sort of waves without being in a group of some sort. However, you will find used boats for cheap, and parts are not hard to come by. The Hobie 18 is a little better as far as hull shape, after that I think that the price will start to climb.

PRINDLES: Ok so the prindle 16 and the prindle 18 are pretty darn ugly. However they are a solid design, and more stable than the hobie cats, weight will kinda very from boat to boat, but thats true with all of them. The nice thing about these is that, like the hobie 16 they have no dagger boards.

NACRAS Ok so I love nacra cats, they have a very solid design, they are tough, srable, and fast. They are sometimes a little intimidating to new sailors. I 5.5 might actually be just a little heavy for a single person to right. If starting on a Nacra I wouls recommend a 5.2 or a 5.0. The 5.0 has no dagger boards which is nice for beginners, it is also very stable even in high seas. I was surprised at how well this little boat took waves the first time I sailed one outside the harbor. 5.2 are very nice boats, and they are getting cheaper these days also. It is a little harder to get parts for the nacras and prindles, but almost everythign can be found at www.murrays.com

That covers the tree main brands you asked about, but there are other beachcats out there which are very nice. I don't know alot about them, as this is pretty much the extent of what I have personally been exposed too. I've tried to be objective, like I said I like Nacra, but on the other hand I just bought a prindle 19.

Hope I've helped and represented the boats accurately.

Hobie 16s are very cheap and abundant. They also have the most sail area of the older 16' designs. Unfortunately, they also have about the worst hull shape of the older 16' designs. Those tiny hulls do not have a lot of floatation too them and are prone to pitchpole (nose-dive underwater) in heavy conditions. A Hobie 16 was my first catamaran, and it served me well enough to learn sailing (I was 15, about 130lbs at the time, and rigged and sailed solo most often), however I would not own another one.

I would suggest a Prindle 16, any of the 16' Nacras, a G-Cat 5M, or a Hobie 17.

Any catamaran can be fitted with a roller-furling jib. It will cost you a roller furling system and a new jib. Also, any mainsail can be fitted with reefing points if you find you truly need them. I'm 150lbs now, sail an 18' G-Cat, and have soloed in 15-20knot winds under main alone, wishing all the while that I had a smaller sail up. That's another thing you can do- get a smaller mainsail for when the wind is really cranking. You could put a H14 sail up for when the wind is really blowing. As a beginner, I would simply suggest not sailing in conditions that would require switching to smaller/reefed sails, though on a lake it may not be too bad. As to righting systems, the Solo~Right will allow you to right any of the boats you can afford with only one person.

*IF* you plan on doing all of your sailing solo, I'd highly recomend reading the posts in the Formula 14 forum. For $3k you might get a used Mystere 4.3, or put together a H14 Maxi.

Also, check your private messages- that symbol to the left of the "main index" link near the top of your screen, or the "My Home" link up there as well.

Thanks, guys :-)

Jake: "A righting pole, like Rick's system, gives you more leverage and ability to right the boat solo."

Where could I get more info on this?

Josh: What's bad about dagger boards? I read someplace that they are a help in tight quarters. And I've seen Nacra made a 4.5 too. How are they?

Sven, er Brian: (Really thought your name was Sven when I read the private message. But I couldn't figure out why you would have put news of your death in there). For the rest of you, Brian privately posted a sobering account of the dangers of cold water. Duly noted.

Anyway, thanks for the info. Where can I get more info about the Solo~Right?

Danno

PS: About wings: Without them, you're either standing with wire, or sitting uncomfortably on the hull or tramp?

nothing is wrong with dagger baords, they are just one more thing to think about. They will help you to point a little higher though. The nacra 450 is a relatively new boat, and I have never been on one however, looking at performance catamarans website, it looks like it is a 5.0 that is halfa meter shorter. i can only assume that they share the shame easy to sail characteristicts of the 5.0, somebody else might be able to shed some more light on this specific boat. I was trying to be objective, and in general it seems that new sailor like boats without daggers, you might be different though. Above all, if you thihnk that you will enjoy it, then buy it. That is really the bottom line in catamaran sailing, or any sailing for that matter.

Righting systems:

http://store.catsailor.com/tek9.asp?pg=products&grp=146

I’d go with the Hobie 16, but they are all good boats to learn on.
In conversations like this you will often hear about how the Hobie 16 is prone to pitch pole. This is entirely over stated. Go to a catamaran regatta when the wind picks up to about 20 knots. You will see all of the other boats flipping and heading to the beach. The 16 fleet will still be out racing. The bows are less buoyant than many other boats, that is a fact of geometry, but the 16 is still one of the best heavy air catamarans out there.
Another funny thing you will notice about bows is that the same people who knock the low volume bows in the Hobie 16 rave about the “wave piercing” narrow bows on the A cats. So next time you look at that classic banana hull, note the “wave piercing” bows .

I have a similar question as Danno: I sail almost always on my own, weigh about 255 lbs, and I am looking to purchase my first catamaran after years of monohull sailing. Living in The Netherlands I visited the Nacra and HC dealer yesterday. Got a very good story from the HC rep, and a fast discountoing story from the other one. Yesterday I was convinced that the HC17 would be my choice: solo sailing, simple design, give it a try for 1-2 years and than move up to FX1 or Nacra I17.
However, after reading the mailings: am I too heavy for the HC17, how much hassle is it to manage the Nacra 5.5 SL on your own, does the SL w/o jib behave as the Nacra 5.5 Uni (is tacking easy w/o the jib on teh SL?). Is the Nacra the better choice?

Bart van Haeringen

Danno,
I just want to add to Josh's comments on the Nacra 5.0. I had one as my 2nd cat--I wish it had been my first and I also wish I still had it. It is incredibly versatile, easy to sail fast, easy to handle alone (I righted mine several times with just a righting line at 180lbs), handles heavy seas well, and looks good as too. It has many aspects of its design that are simply superior to the P16 and H16. I purchased mine used and had no problem finding any parts.

Also, they can be gotten very inexpensively used and are available with even more goodies new (Nacra 500).

Good luck,

I'm not a H16 basher - but the pitchpole tendancy of the H16 is because of the flat deck and the angle of the deck at the bow. Once that is submerged the boat meets a lot of resistance all at once. All catamarans will suffer this to some degree.

The wave piercer A-cats are rounded on the top deck and although they too will definitely pitchpole, they're are designed to run with minimal drag with the bows submerged.

bolivar,

I'm fairly new to sailing and I weigh 140lbs. I'm having a blast sailing a Nacra 5.5sl. No problem tacking with or w/o jib, although I would add a roller furling for convenience. I flipped for the first time today, and I couldn't right the boat by myself (close, but not enough weight).

Mike
Nacra 5.5 sl

Bolivar,

At 225 lbs., I would choose the NACRA 5.5, Sloop or Uni. The difference between the two N5.5's is that the Uni has a taller mast (carbon is optional) and larger mainsail, but no jib. It is designed to be raced single-handed. The sloop has a bow foil that supports a large jib (genoa?) and is designed to be raced 2-up. I weighed about 205 lbs. when I sailed the 5.5 Uni with aluminum mast and I kept a soft sided cooler clipped to a hiking strap. When I needed to right the boat (way too often!), I would retrieve my righting line from the pouch on the trampoline and throw it up over the hull, unclip the cooler and open it, hang off my righting line (I had a loop tied in the line so my body was just above the water when hooked on my trapeze) reach over my head and submerge the cooler. When I lifted the cooler full of water out of the water, the boat came right up. I also tried the righting pole but the first time I tried to use it, it was much more difficult to make work than the above stated method. When I finally got the boat up, I was in shallow water and the righting pole stuck in the bottom supporting both bows way out of the water until the dolphin stiker bent out of the way! Major damage and repairs required. I threw the righting pole away!

When I bought a new NACRA 5.5 Uni with carbon mast in 1999, I no longer required the cooler, just hooked into the righting line loop and the boat popped right up!

Hey Danno,

As you can see, you've received a tremendous amount of advice. One question I have for the group recommending the Nacra's is price. I'm not familiar with the going rate for the N5.5, etc.

My two cents. I learned to sail on small boats like Sunfish, etc., and moved to a Hobie 16. I now have a Hobie 18 Magnum (includes wings). It also has a roller furling jib. A used TheMightyHobie18 can be had for the $2-3k range, and includes several of the attributes you ask about, and that I appreciate.

The roller furling jib is great when sailing solo, or when coming in. The wings also are great for friends and kids, and you get a bunch of weight out over the water hold the boat down before having to learn how to trap-out. The TheMightyHobie18 is also a much friendlier boat to sail, bigger hulls, greater stability in big wind or waves, and much harder to pitch-pole. Finally they're plentiful and inexpensive, and important attribute for the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).
Good luck.

Dan Simmons
'79 Hobie 18 Magnum - Sail 886
Mallets Bay on Lake Cahmplain, VT

To Sparky,
Do you still have the 5.5 uni with carbon mast? Does it also have carbon boards and rudders? If so, what does the whole package weigh (actual, not published)? Can you still buy a 5.5 Uni carbon? If so what's the price these days?
Lot's of questions, but just curious.

To Danno,
Other boats/brands to consider - SuperCat, Mystere, A-Class, Tornado (yes, Tornado - they are light and there are $3K Tornado's out there and nothing sails like a Tornado). Though I may agree that the Nacra 5.0 or 5.5 seem to fit your needs best.

Steve Bellavia
Hobie FX-1, Sail #211

While I agree the Tornado is an excellent boat, I'm not sure I could suggest one to a beginner who may be sailing alone. Unless, of course, he bought a Solo~Right from HobieGary. Even then... they're a powerful boat to single-hand...

Steve,

I sold my 1999 NACRA 5.5 Uni to buy a 2000 Inter 17R! Both are great boats! I saw a couple of the newer (since 1999) NACRA 5.5 Uni get weighed at Spring Fever and I think they were about 320 lbs. all up, sails, rigging, etc. I am not sure if you can buy a 5.5 Uni Carbon new right now...I thought I heard that the last one in stock sold earlier this year. Talk to Mark Biggers at the Cathouse...he sells more of them than anyone in the world (989-692-9430). His web address is cathouse1.com. I know he has one used 5.5 Uni Carbon that is like new from one of CRAM's members who is now sailing with his son on a refurbished NACRA 5.2! Biggers is the guy I would ask about pricing, new or used.