So the A2 order died because of the high price and these guys are now ordering 17s, right? They never intended to buy 17s and now they are simply because there is nothing else available. I had the class rules? I had my check in the mail before I got them. Did I have a ballot to vote? NO. Was there ever a ballot? Probably not. Does 2 members dictate changes to the class? NO. When you MI guys got together last Sat, what did Mark Batchelor say? Or was he (intentionally)excluded??? You also don't know anything about sails. Spinnaker sails sail lower mostly because of fullness, not so much size. Remember I've been involved in that industry and might know a little something about it. Lower with the same speed actually equates to lower and faster on the course. The only change I applauded was the spin, nothing else. And like Chris Sawyer said, it will take some testing time to see what actually is the right shape/fullness. Oh by the way, the new mainsail material is Dimesion Polyant Pentex, not Contender Kevlar. Please inform your dealer of this truth.

In a nutshell:
Is the change good for the class? Hell no!
Was the class membership(only 2)polled on the changes? yes.
Are most of the 17 owners (soon to be members) in favor of the changes? IMO, Hell no, they never knew anything about it!!!

Hope this sheds the correct amount of light (something we have alot of in Florida) on the subject.

Bob

What’s the diference between the F17, I17, I17R, EUI17 and the NACRA17 ?
Do they all fit the new Formula 17 rule?
Who are all the manufacturers?
Does the Hobie FX1 fit the rule?

Why is there always problems with voting in Florida?

Great discussion, good for publicity... Looking forward to seeing F-17's in action at Catfight!

Mark Schneider,

I don't know who keeps perpetuating that myth that Hobie Corp. and PUHCA have a bunch
of staff who go around the country and put on regattas, but it is totally false.
A dealer, a yacht club, a Fleet, or some sailing organization puts in a bid to hold an NA.
If the powers that be feel like it, you get the "honor" of working your a$$ off for several months.
The work is done by the local people who submitted the bid.
They find local sponsors to help defray costs.
Locals donate their boats and their time to set and move marks.
Locals help on the race Committee.
Locals supply the marks.

I worked on the race committee at the 2003 Tiger/20 NA's and there was NO ONE from Hobie Corp. or PUHCA there to help.
Kirk, Mark, Sawyer and many others LOCALS made that regatta happen.
Hobie Corp. just wants to take credit for "ANOTHER GREAT REGATTA" in their advertising.

The U.S. A Class has many regattas including an NA with no factory support.
They have even put on a World Championship in America with no factory support.

The NAF18 holds regattas, regional championships and an NA Championship without factory support.
The iF18 holds regattas and championships all over the world without factory support.

Regattas don't happen without US, the sailors, the ex-sailors, the wannabe sailors, the friends of sailors.

Hobie Corp. and Performance could go out of business tommorrow and there would be NA's next year.

How many monohull regattas are there every year?
Do any of them have factory support?

Sam,

You state the case for NAMSA. No nonsense cat racing, all inclusive, with no manufacturer loyalty. If a class organizes under NAMSA, only the NAMSA class members have control over boat configuration.
Fisrt the Hobie x boat crap anf now PUHCA meddling with sailors investment.....

The latter part of your comment has some truth to it, but
both Hobie and Performance support NAF18 events either monetarily or by donating generous trophies, or give-a-ways.
I don't think manufacturers should be expected to send a crew of volunteers to help run the events. That's just silly.

NAF18 events have not gained enough popularity to justify a manufacturer supplying boats for North American events, however, I'd like to see this happen in the very near future.

Now, as for the HCA, speaking for myself only, I have never been offered support or seen support from the class towards running an event. Keeping in mind, I have never been involved with a Nationals, I am only speaking of our weekend regattas, which in my opinion serve as the back bone for class racing.
If the weekend events stopped happening, there would be very little new blood, less communication through word of mouth of the sailors and less people on boats just sailing. Even if a regatta only attracts ten or so boats, it is still that activity on the beach or lake that generates curiosity and excitement from people who are wondering what is going, or reminisce about when they used to sail a cat and how much fun it was. Often they think about getting back into sailing.
Why, because they see it happening right in front of them. Take this away, and it becomes non-existent.
My point is, weekend regattas no matter how rinky-dinky they seem are more important to catamaran racing in general then some people think.
Holding a Nationals or Worlds every year is great, but it is really the icing on a cake that has gone flat.

Maybe I am being to harsh. I know there are people in the HCA that will bend over backwards to help out but they can't be everywhere at any given time. People get burned out very quickly while serving this sport.

Sam, you know very well that in Division 9 everything we have, all our regatta equipment,our website, our newsletter, the 10 + events we hold each year, (most by fleets that literally have a few very dedicated people planning and running these events) have all come about through the efforts of the sailors in the division wanting to make the area which we race in better.
And we've succeeded. heck, as far as I am concerned we are our own class association.

We should probablly re-open this matter for discussion at CatFest.

Tracie

PS. Flat cake every weekend 'aint so bad.

HZ,

Let me attempt to answer your questions with the information I have. Seems this has created confusion on the definition of "Formula":

What’s the diference between the F17, I17, I17R, EUI17 and the NACRA17 ? ALL THE SAME EXCEPT I THINK MOST OF THE EU17S ARE THE SMALLER ALUM MAST. THERE IS INTEREST OVER THERE IN THE 17R.

Do they all fit the new Formula 17 rule? NO.

Who are all the manufacturers? NACRA IS THE ONLY ONE.

Does the Hobie FX1 fit the rule? NO. THIS IS NOT A "FORMULA" CLASS. IT'S THE INTER17R/NACRA17 CLASS ONLY.

Hope this helps!!

Bob

Okay, let me go down this road and see what y'all think:

1. Come up with a 5 year plan for changes not a 5 second plan. Inform all boat owners that a vote is coming and to join the class allowing ample time for everyone to accomplish that goal. Vote on time frame and schedule of items to be tested. Haste is waste.

2. Introduce one change at a time. Designate one well-qualified nationally ranked sailor to test and evaluate. Post summary to class members with performance gain/cost effectiveness. If it truly is a performance gain then vote. If it's just a thing to do, kill it.

3. If thinking of changing hull weights(very bad marketing strategy), must inform everyone that there will be 2 classes. Otherwise, the class will not enjoy its full potential. How could you justify this to a person who just bought a boat/has an existing platform?

Summary: Change is inevitable and we all know that. Taken in very small cost effective portions, change is good. As a lump sum, it's BAD JUJU.

IMO,

Bob

Sam,

Don't over interpret my statement of "factories help support".

Factories and the national class leadership take the lead, seduce, cajole, and bribe, whatever it takes to get a local group to run the event. They try to balance geography, time of year and local interest. They have the authority to call an event the nationals and they give that standing to the club who is running the event.

THEN they do this.
“Hobie Corp. just wants to take credit for "ANOTHER GREAT REGATTA" in their advertising.”

And that is fine... we are all in this boat together; factories, class leadership, club leadership, volunteers and racing sailors and the fans who just watch from the side lines. Remember It's their tradmark which increases the stature of the event and we support this notion by supporting events sanctioned by the factories as "nationals"


“The U.S. A Class has many regattas including an NA with no factory support.
They have even put on a World Championship in America with no factory support.”

Actually not true, I know that Boyer sent boats to the nationals for charter….

Regardless, my point is that we are all in this boat together and the more people pushing the ball forward the better. The factory support is just one factor (I certainly agree with you that they are not the most important factor) in driving the event forward.

Tracie’s point about regional sailing is right on. The national scene is just a reflection of the health of the local sailing scene.

Mark

THIS IS NOT A "FORMULA" CLASS. IT'S THE INTER17R/NACRA17 CLASS ONLY.

????So why do they call it a Formula 17????

Yo Scooby,

As to the length of the I-17 d-board,

...see, the builder must read the Catsailor.com Forum, for we all determined this a while back

..I will guess 8 to 10 inches to cut off,...your turn to post a measurement Scooby ( and anyone else)


regards,
Bruce
I 17
St. Croix

Bruce,

I still like to have the whole board. Adjust it to where you need it. Seems to me the long board is helpful in light airs.

Tom Turlington
NACRA F17 #124

See attached. These two NACRA F17's have their boards adjusted for the conditions. This is the very start of one of the races this past weekend. Winds between 12 and 18.

Disagree, too much drag. Only time I use full plate is when 'just wiring'. Soon as full power on the wire I move them up a little - I would quite happily trade 9-12 inches of plate for a slower rating.

No attachemnts above

Scooby,

You say too much drag as if it's actually something you need to be concerned with. It's so small it would never be a factor to worry about. You may want to just slam the board down so that it is somewhere close to the hull and concentrate on things like current, favored side of the course, downhaul, mast rotation, body position, traveler position, mast rake, diamond wire tension, spreader rake, favored side of the starting line, sheeting (as in how tight to sheet the main) rounding " A " mark and the transition to spinnaker land, and about 10 other things that far outweigh the minimal effect of that little bit of drag created by have 8" more of board in the water.

Tom

OK, do all of the above, but I also consider the plates. They are too big - we've had the discussion on here before - the plates that are right for a I18 / I20 with more sail and twice the mass on the wire, cannot be right for a single hander with less mass on the wire.

You / I can feel when I have too much plate down, the boat does not pick up in the gusts properly up wind, it sticks or tip's the bow in slightly before any increase in speed.

Wind gusting up from about 5 knots to 8 knots doesn't really seem to be a problem!

Tom, Scooby and all others,

Well, the GOOD thing is we all have options,...

so, long board -ok

and, short board - ok

As for me, in 15-25 mph wind range, I am going to cut the board and save the weight,...it just does not make sense for me to carry an unused d-board dimension around the course.....even though I have some pretty cool stickers I have put on the 'up' part of the board, so I will miss those

I was in Tampa/USF for 2 weeks in July, when it wasn't raining ( about 75% of the time), the clear days were beautiful,..but definately light airs (5-6 mph),..so I can see you wanting more sail area.

I was then in Erie, Pa, on Lake Erie for 1 week,( raining about 50% of the time, but we still went fishing ), again, winds under 10mph,...so I can see why that region wants more sail area too..

Then we went to Toronto for a week,( no rain, perfect days), but alas, winds under 5mph, 90% of the time,however, the sailboats were out...so I can see alot more sail area there too.

Point being, in my opionion, it is an ok idea for regions to 'tweak' their boats for what they need,...why not.

However, do not be fooled, over 15 mph, approaching 20 with a little gust action to 25 ( as Scooby will agree), you 'R' folks have your hands full,......the 'normal' mast size with small sail, just screams full throttle,...and beats most boats ( I-20, H-18, P-19mx, N-5.8 for sure), ON REAL TIME upwind.

...in fact, it would be interesting to have a race, "R" versus "Euro" in 18-20 mph ,...I have a bias,...but it would be interesting...

ok,...enough writing,...everyone go sailing!

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix