I am likely one of the sarcastic ones, But really, why do I care what color my state is on the map? Am I going to be invited to a meeting in the middle somewhere? Does it matter if [color:"blue"] Colorado [/color] and [color:"red"] Texas[/color] are together and we dont generally sail together? Would there be some sort of area related issues that would need to be voted on within our group? Please give me more information other than do I like my [color:"green"]color [/color]

Hi Marc,
What we are looking for is a good division of North America that groups likely multihull sailors. Color is not an issue.., forget that. This is just a gif trying to show the lines of division.
What we need is input by the mulithull sailors out there on what they think the division lines should be.
Naturally, anyone can cross the line to sail in another region, just as in any class or even US Sailing.

And we wanted to keep the number of regions low, i.e., we could divide into 25 or 30 regions.

Please keep the input coming. We need your help.
Thanks
Rick

Hi Mary,
We in Ontario Canada are excited about NAMSA and feel that Hobie has deserted us. H. Div. 16 doesn't work for us because we are only about 50% H boats. So, Matt and company will find that we will probably drop most associations with said company and join an OPEN organization namely NAMSA.

Marc, your folks have had quite a while to chat with the NAMSA folks and request what you wanted. And I think that this is only a preliminary proposal anyway. So, if you have a suggestion lets hear it.

Rick,

I think Marc Reiter has a point, sort of. Sailors in south Texas seem to gravitate more toward races in La. Fl. Ala. etc. and have easy access to ocean-style sailing. It's rare for the high-plains and mountain sailors to go that far south unless it's a nationals or some other major event. However, several of us travel to north Texas for events and we've had them join us for races in our area.

Maybe split Texas between the mountain and southern divisions. You also might consider grouping Utah with the mountain division, rather than the So. Cal. region.

Perhaps somebdy can explain to me why non-Hobie sailors want to join a Hobie fleet and why they are so upset at not being allowed to join? I don't own a Laser and I can't join the Laser Assocaition.

I notice pitchpoledave even refers to his Division as a H Div 16. He also mentions that 50% of the H Division are Hobies, so why don't these hobie sailors stay with Hobie?

I am confused as the non Hobie sailors want to be members of a group that is not of their class Also why they want to drag the Hobie sailors away from their own class which to me seem to support thier sailors.

Sorry the whole thing is lost on me

Hello new

It is confusing but here is one spin on it.
The Hobie Division structure has evolved over time. The name trade name,"Hobie" does not accuratly describe the situation on the ground in 2004 in many areas. Today, each division is a defacto regional sailing authority for cats (more or less), much like the CBYRA which serves the Chesapeake bay region for Big boats and dinghies. The Hobie Divisions are composed of clubs which are named hobie fleet xx but today they really serve as paper yacht clubs for all beach cats. These paper clubs have both hobie members and non hobie brand boat members. In addition to the Hobie yacht clubs... you also have other cat clubs which use more generic names... eg CRAC or WRCRA. CRAC has been an associate member of Hobie Division 11 in the past but in any event the organizations work to coordinate a schedule for the mid atlantic.

What is happening is that the Hobie Corporation and the Hobie International and the North American Hobie organizations have decided to turn back the clock, and reserve their trademark "Hobie" for events that are truly Hobie only.

So yacht clubs/Hobie fleets are being forced to make choices on how they run events. In an ideal world this probably could work out however, the reality is that clubs are small and they are now faced with hosting two regattas instead of the one they normally run if they want to serve all of their members. The Tornonto club, for example, would need one Hobie only event and and one Open only event instead of their one combined event. That's tough to do when the number of volunteers is low and the amount of work needed to run an event for 20 boats is the same as it would be for 40 boats AND you only have so many weekends in the sailing season to choose from.

So, This is forcing yacht club/Hobie fleets to choose their future.

One outcome of this debacle is the discussion to establish another set of regional sailing authorites under the NAMSA banner. (Thus the map).

The most important role a RSA serves is the coordination of the areas schedule. When everyone wants the same dates on the calander the RSA is usally the final word. In CBYRA, this is managed by the term Sanctioned... the Collection of Clubs, aka CBYRA, cannot stop you from runnng your event in conflict with someone else, however, they won't sanction you... keep your scores posted, include your results in any of the regional year long series etc etc.

I have no clue how a new RSA under NAMSA and a RSA of Hobie only Divisions will benefit the rank and file cat racer.

In a perfect world, each Hobie fleet or Cataraman Club would join their RSA, In the Bay, this would be the CBYRA, under this umbrella, the clubs would organize the schedule, set rules for high point, etc etc and serve the various classes in their club and region. In this kind of organization each class formulates a strategy for their season and their class president works it out the yacht clubs for starts at the sanctioned regattas.

In the good old days cat sailing was large enough to go their own way.... Today, cat sailing should try to integrate into the mainstream of sailing while maintaing the unique flavor (Hobie way of life, etc etc)they have developed over the years.

Just my spin.

Take Care
Mark

Let me add a bit more confusion to the mess.

While what Mark describes is certainly true in some parts of North America, it is not the case throughout the region.

There are still a fair number of "true" Hobie Fleets out there (Hobie Fleet 204 in Syracuse, NY being a classic example).

Matt, I believe we met at Quonset Point, or perhaps New Bedford some years back, so I know you are familiar with Division 12, and Fleets 28, and 448. 448 is still probably the biggest fleet in New England, but we are seeing many members leave, and 28 is all but deceased! For MANY years the same people have run all the events. Many have moved on to other brands of boats, and if they are excluded they have no reason to do all that work. In 448 we work hard to recruit new members, I got one new member this year, and I preach about the fleet and Division all year! There aren't many that will devote all the time and work that goes into running events. Mark's comments are right on for most of the country! I say this as someone that loves my Hobie, understands the "one design" race, but really is more interested in seeing the sport grow. Do you see any Hobie Fleets growing dramatically since the new directives came out? How about the number of regattas and races? I just don't see any way this has helped fleets or the sport. I know you are a real authority on the sport, and Hobie racing, so I am asking with hopes that you can help me understand how things are going to be better. Thanks, Brian

Brian, it must have been at Quonset Point in 1999, since I've never sailed at New Bedford.

I lived in Maine from 1983-1985 and raced extensively in Hobie Division 12. I got to know a lot of people from Hobie Fleets 28, 448, 209, and of course my own fleet, 231.

I know many old faces are gone and / or have moved on to other brands of boats. It's happened in my own division. (Nearly everybody that races in CRAM started out on a Hobie.) People get burned out, they have other priorities (kids) and / or they develop other interests. Personally, if I was getting beat up in B or C fleet every other week, I'd soon lose interest in racing. At some point, a Fleet just has to say, "We aren't going to hold our traditional event this year. We're tired, and we need a break." There's no shame in that.

Mark's comments are right on for significant parts of the country, but to expand it to a broad generalization across the country is just not correct.

My current Hobie Fleet (276) lay dormant for several years. I had no interest in carrying the load - I was too involved on a regional level. Finally, a guy came along who became our "sparkplug" - he got us off our collective rear ends and back into Hobie sailing on a local level. Our emphasis is on having fun - not racing. There are a core group of us who take turns hosting fun sails and parties. The only thing that we all have in common is ownership of a Hobie Cat. I've made some great new friends and I really get into the "mentor" role of helping people get their boats working right and most importantly, out on the water.

There are fleets that are growing. Fleet 276 has gone from nothing to a paid membership of 20 or so in 2 years. Hobie Fleet 519 in Portage, MI has 5 new members this year. At least 2 of their existing members have sold non-Hobies and bought H-16's. Hobie Fleet 204 is a growth machine - we could all learn from them. They are working on their third and fourth generation of sailors.

These are just the fleets that I have personal knowledge of. I'm sure there are others.

Likewise, there are fleets that are dying or already dead (they just won't admit it). It's part of the natural cycle.

I don't know where the Hobie One-Design policy will lead us. I know that what has happened in the past (and I take responsibility for some of that past) has not helped the class grow.

There are some very encouraging signs of new growth. Hobie Cat Company will be supplying 35 boats for the 2005 Hobie 16 North Americans to be held in Southern California next July. They've made a committment to do this for three years. They haven't supplied boats for a regional event since 1989. The self-organized Rehoboth Fall Classic next week will draw over 25 Hobie 17's - and they're just racing for fun. No points, no titles - just a good time. Tigers are really starting to take off, admittedly at the expense of some of the other Hobie Classes (the 18's and 20's), but there is still net positive growth. Even the Hobie 14 is showing a resurgence - look at the Newport frostbite series. In what other catamaran class can you buy a 32 year old boat and trailer for $600, clean it up, put on a new sail and place 2nd in the North Americans (I did).

I know that there's a lot of anxiety about what going to happen next year. I'm confident that the new leadership of the HCA (Ed Muns, Bob Merrick and Rob Jerry) will carry us through. I'm just going to keep sailing, no matter what.

Matt Bounds
Hobie 16 108389
Hobie 14 32350
Hobie Tiger 1111

Hi Matt

I agree with your qualification, I was certainly not trying to characterize all Hobie fleets around the country.
The national politics is important but not the essential factor for revival.

You noted a couple of positive situations:
A recreation centered fleet, Syracuse and Rehoboth.

I would like your comments on why Syracuse and Rehoboth are successful. ... I would also add to those groups, two open fleets, Sandy Hook and WRCRA and the Bristol and West River A boat fleets as other fleets which have experienced great success over the last few years.

It seems to me that they have a couple things in common.
1) They have a facility where the mast is up
2) They have a low key local racing program (OK maybe not Bristol)
3) They have a mission: They focus on growing new sailors by supporting adults in learning to race cats AND/OR they have a juniors program that gets their kids involved.

In the future ... I believe that revival will occur when we integrate with existing yacht clubs and follow these principles.

Take Care
Mark

This is getting off the thread a little, but I have to add Denver's Fleet 61 to the list of successful Hobie Fleets. We have about 55 paid members and get 35 to 40 boats at our regattas. We'll feed 125 to 135 people at the largest events. Our fastest growing fleet is the 20 with three new owners this year and at least two others getting boats in time for next season.

I think our success comes from several factors. First is an enthusiastic core group that shares responsibilities of Commodore, social commodore, racing, newsletter, membership and treasurer. We also continue to attract new people - boat owners and NBOs who get involved with running events. Second is the diversity of events. Our division holds six points events and five social or fun-sailing events each season - one of which is a fundraiser that generated $5,200 for Craig Hospital (the facility that treated Roy Horn. The event was mentioned on a Maria Schriver-hosted TV program about Horn).

But I think Mark is right about getting involved with local yacht clubs as a key to generating membership and giving catamaran sailing some credibility in the eyes of "mainstream" sailors. Over the last two seasons we've been showing up at open events with enough boats to get our own start and the half-boaters are starting to take notice. Another area we're starting to focus on is youth sailing. We have a handfull of enthusiastic youth sailors, but next season we're putting on a fundraising regatta for the local youth sailing organization that I hope will become an annual event. I think this new regatta could become a source of not just young sailors getting involved with the fleet, but their entire families who come out to support their kids and see how much fun multihull sailors have.

Since Hobie's new membership rules went into effect, we've actually gained one or two members who sold thier boats and bought a Hobie. I support the idea of NAMSA as a way to support the sport in general, but without a local core group of individuals, or a "sparkplug" as Matt said, who are willing to organize a few events, I don't see how this organization will ever take hold in this region where Hobie is the dominant multihull on the water.

Update from the Northwest. We are predominantly Hobie-only (will be next year per the mandate). We only had 2 or 3 non-Hobies: a couple Inter 20's and a Prindle 19. We saw a slight dip in attendance at regattas this year as several sailors (incl. Ken & Eric Marshack) bought A-Cats and developed their own circuit.

We are seeing incredible growth in the Hobies, particularly the Hobie 16. For the past 3 years we have been teaching Hobie 101 and 102 classes to standing-room only crowds! Nearly everyone who sails a beach cat today started out on a H-16 at one point or another. Our Hobie 16 fleet in the Northwest hasn't been this big in 15 years!! We are already seeing the H-17 and H-18 fleets grow, too, as some people get bored on their 16. I expect the A-cat fleet will see growth from this well. It is just a matter of time.

For us here in the Northwest, the key has been educating and providing opportunities for the new sailor. People from all walks of life are (re-)discovering the thrill of catamaran sailing.

Matt et al, Thanks for the facts, and the thoughtful reply. It is good to hear that some fleets are still growing! 448 runs an intro to cat sailing every June with a local adult ed organization. I know they usually get at least a couple of new members each year from that, but 28 used to run terrific Hobie seminars with at least one having a large turn out. Most of the attendees I never saw again! I guess a lot of it is just luck with the timing and who you get. As you said, a lot of people have moved on to other boats, and others have moved away, or taken time for families etc...That is certainly what happened to Fleet 28. I will miss all the great events! Perhaps in time there will be a revival here too. There are a growing number of us that just "fun sail". Brian

Hi Guys,
Great to hear that things are going well in parts of the country.
Meanwhile, it would be greatly appreciated if we could get back to the subject of the thread.
Thanks,
Rick

The question still stands Rick... anybody?

WHY???

Why do you want to build a Fourth level of regional sailing associations?

Jamie described the US Sailing Mission previously. AND they host regional Alter Cup qualifiers regionally! A real and tangable mission.

NAHCA has their RSA.... How universal this structure will be for all beach cats remains to be determined in 2005. (supposedly Hobie only) How strong each NAHCA regional organization is depends on the region in North America. How many people/fleets participate in the Hobie divisions is unclear.

Hobie Div 11 holds one scheduling meeting, publishes a regatta book, hosts a website and scores a season Highpoint series for Hobies, Shares a set of equipment among clubs.... Tangible stuff.

Most sailing areas have their own Regional Sailing Association... eg CBYRA on the Bay ... ps... All you need to do is participate if you want to share the benefits of a RSA. Why can't they serve any function that you feel is lost when NAHCA goes its own way in a region? (Do they work for EVERY OTHER kind of sailing vessel execpt beach CATS???)

What is NAMSA going to do as the Fourth level of Regional Sailing Association? How does it plan to interact with the other three established levels. Who the hell is going to do this in each region? Why haven't these people stepped forward in each area and educated us rank and file or club leaders on what is missing in our regions and needs to happen in the future. Why haven't they done this work in the past as part of one of the three existing levels of RSA?

Respecfully
Mark

Mark,
I think you are making this sound much too complicated. North American Multihull Sailing Association was first formed 45 years ago to provide a communication link (newsletter) for all the different types of multihulls around the country and also to provide a handicapping system and some structure so those different classes would be able to race against each other. It has been dormant since 1985, when the handicapping was taken over by the Multihull Council and the NAMSA Newsletter had died.

In many parts of the country the only racing structure available to all the boats was the Hobie Class structure, which for years allowed non-Hobies to participate in an Open Class at their regattas. When the Hobie Class decided to close the door to non-Hobies, it was feared that many catamaran sailors would be left with no way to race and no way to put on regattas. It appeared that perhaps NAMSA was needed again to provide a structure similar to the Hobie Class structure, but for all the non-Hobies (and Hobies, too, of course) because NAMSA is an organization open to ALL multihulls.

Even when the “Open Class” was an option at Hobie regattas, it was not an ideal situation because there are a number of non-Hobie classes that would like to be able to race one-design when they have enough boats. This was not allowed at the Hobie regattas – only the Hobies were allowed to race one-design. (Mark, I know you have never been a fan of one-design racing, but a lot of people are, even if the classes are relatively small.)

In addition, for non-Hobies there has never been a structure to provide for large, regional championships. The Hobies have events like Midwinters East, Midwinters West, the Midamerica Championships, Eastern, Western, Midwest, etc., most of which did not even allow an open class for non-Hobies.

NAMSA will be able to organize and coordinate similar major events around the country, as well as a NAMSA North American Championship, that are open to ALL catamarans, and provide both Open Portsmouth Classes and one-design classes for those classes that can bring enough boats.

All of the classes are relatively small in numbers, so it just makes sense to have consolidated regattas that make it financially feasible for organizers and also provide events accessible to boats that might otherwise never see another of its kind. As a far-out hypothetical, let’s say there are a couple of G-Cats racing in Florida and a couple in New England and a couple in the Midwest and a couple on the West Coast. If they all show up at the NAMSA North Americans, voila, you have a G-Cat fleet. Then maybe the G-Cat people start getting excited about building their class again. Maybe Hans starts building boats again.

It’s great that your area has no problem with putting on regattas. Same with CRAM in Michigan and CRAW in Wisconsin and numerous other multiple-class organizations around the country. But there are big segments of the multihull population that do not have a multiple-class organization to turn to. Those areas need to form such fleets, and they could sure use the help and expertise of established groups like CRAM and CRAC and CRAW. And there has been no overall entity to unite all these separate multihull communities.

NAMSA, ultimately, should be the mother ship that bonds together all the multiple-class fleets (or multiple-fleet organizations) and makes possible the large, regional and North American Championships that would not be possible for most of the classes to do on their own. I don’t think NAMSA will add any bureaucratic levels to existing, successful organizations like yours. But I do think it can help areas that are not as fortunate. And its big contribution, as I see it, is in creating the larger, regional regattas and the North Americans. In order to do that, NAMSA needs all of its member organizations to work together to make those bigger events happen.

Having said all that to show how “simple” it is, I must add that I am not personally involved in the NAMSA organization (except for it having been my idea to revive it), so I do not really know the purpose of the North American NAMSA divisions we are discussing in this thread. Are they planning on having a system of “points” regattas as the Hobie Class used to have? I don’t know. Rick White or Mike Hill needs to explain it better.

If NAMSA establishes large-scale “regional” championships, it’s not like participants would be limited to the people in specific “regions.” They all would be open to anybody from anywhere in the United States, just as is the case with the Hobie regional and Continental events, which are all open to Hobie sailors from anywhere in the North American Region (and foreign sailors, as well).

Anyway, this is all pretty silly, because if you want to subscribe to Catamaran Sailor Magazine, a membership in NAMSA is, in effect, free. For a subscriber, $5 of your $20 subscription fee goes to NAMSA to get you a membership card and a vote in the organization. If you don’t want to belong to NAMSA but do want to get Catamaran Sailor, you just tell me you don’t want to be a member, and I keep that $5 for myself instead of sending it to NAMSA for your membership. If you do want to belong to NAMSA but don’t want Catamaran Sailor Magazine, tough, it’s still $20 and you still get the magazine along with your membership, like it or not.

When I started the magazine 10 years ago, I did it because I thought there was again a need again for a NAMSA Newsletter as a communication link for all the multihull sailors. I just called it “Catamaran Sailor” instead of “NAMSA Newsletter.” So, in spirit, NAMSA has been alive through my magazine for 10 years

Now that NAMSA has been incorporated and activated as an organization, having a membership and a vote makes it possible for you to vote on any policies that NAMSA proposes, or you can vote to have NAMSA not do anything at all. So what do you have to lose?

OK, Mark & Jamie, I will start a new thread on the subject of Regions. Please continue your debates on this thread and leave the Regional Discussion open to the subject on the other thread.
Thanks,
Rick

Hey Rick,

Mary, in her post "Re: NAMSA #38745 - 09/28/04 12:13 PM" asked me to drop it and I did. You haven't seen me post here lately, (until now).

Jamie,
I feel kind of insulted that he did not include me. Anyway, now we are free to bloviate about NAMSA all we want on this thread.