Paul Henderson wrote the following:



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I like the idea of having a beach cat with mixed crew, provided that it is in addition to the Tornado (not instead of it).

Luiz

I heard that last year. They want a Cat like the Laser. The manufacturer would supply identical boats for charter. I also heard there were a lot of problems.

They are talking 100+ boats This would stretch most builders and represents a good portion of a years sales for any one design. Also you end up taking a big loss selling the boats afterward. There was resistance to having the charter cost high enough to pay the real cost.

The most popular classes are formulas. Picking any one design could really hurt a formula class.

Last I heard there were a couple of options:

Use a simple boat, pull the spins and expensive gear and sell them to the "Clubs" afterward.

Pick a formula, say F18, and then rotate designs by some kind of proposal process like the Worrell or the Alter Cup. There are a lot of problems with this.

No matter what happens there are a lot of people who will not be happy

There could be some funny things

If they do it like the laser, they take the boats apart, make big piles and then the sailors draw numbers to put the boats together. You draw a number for a left hull, right hull, mast, sails, etc I would be surprised if all the parts fit. You could end up with the boat whose port hull point up and to the left

You could end up sailing an Olympic class without knowing. With somebody waking you up at 7am on a Sunday to pee in a cup for a drug test.

I think I know what the arguments might be...but simply looking at how successful formula racing has been worldwide - what's so terribly wrong about having an Olympic multihull formula sailing event?

A formula class is a formula class. If a formula class is chosen for the Olympics, it would not make any sense to choose ONE of the classes that fit within that formula and require everybody to sail that class, because then it is not a formula class, it is, effectively, a one-design class.

If the A-Class is chosen for the Olympics, for instance, it would not make sense to limit it to the Marstrom A-Class for one quadrennium and then switch to another manufacturer for the next quadrennium. Do all the other A-class manufacturers go out of business in the meantime? A-Class is A-Class, no matter what brand of boat you sail. Same with any other Formula classes that are ISAF international classes.

I agree entirely and I know there's been a history of the Olympic sailing being a very strict one design - and the choices of that class often being based on how strict the one design class is....but why is that? Why can't there be a true formula class - F18 or A class for instance? Hey, wait a minute...now I'm doing it too...The Tornado class is not a true one-design class either. So why not have A-cats cats be part of the Olympics?

How can you say the Tornado is not a true one-design class? I think it is one of the truest one-design classes.

The Tornado is not a one design cat. The Dart 18 or 15 are one design, as is the Hurricane 5.9 in the uk.

The Tornado allows different cuts of sail, different layouts for the 'string', different hull shapes (to a small extent) etc.

The Dart 18 is totally one design. The class rules state the blocks to be useed, the max and min lengths of ropes and wires, the Aurhorised sailmaker etc.

The Tornado has become a one (currently) manufacturer class at the moment.

But not officially....on paper it's still a multi-manufacuter class.

This terminology is starting to make my head spin....

As far as I know, among the Olympic classes, only the Laser and Windsurfer are one-design. All other classes are supposed to be development classes.

I think there is no box-rule (formula) class in the Olympics. The probable reason is that the Olympic games are more about the athlete and its nationality then about the equipment. A formula class is likely to benefit teams with big budgets, something that is against the olympic "spirit". Actually, I see the Olympics going more and more one design, even if some features are likely to change eventually - the recent Tornado modifications are one example (they were imposed by ISAF in spite of the class vote).

I think the main difference between one design, development and box-rule (formula) classes is the speed of change. Even the Laser class changes from time to time, but major changes in any type of class are very rare. The new Tornado is, again, an example. It takes a class vote (or ISAF's imposition) to implement major changes in any class, be it development, box-rule or one-desing.

In the end, I think all Lasers were as equal as all Tornados or all Stars in the Olympics, so in practice one-desing and development classes equipment are almost as uniform, because all competitors tend to use the same parts. The same would happen with a box-rule class, but with one important difference: the price tends to be higher, because there is more room for tests prior to converging to the same equipment.

Now think of this: if the Star class was one-design or had inflexible rules, they would be sailing today with heavy wooden hulls, rigid mast, cotton sails and natural fiber twisted lines...

The point is: one-design means lower cost but shorter competitive life. Development means ability to change slowly and adapt to new technologies at a reasonable price. Formula means ability to change faster at a higher price.

I see one design classes being preferred for the smaller equipment (single-handed) in order to keep prices low enough to allow more (poor) nations to compete in sailing, but I think development classes will continue to be used for most olympic equipment.

Cheers,

hence my commnet :



Which might have made more sense as



White formula in the UK have beeen working on a Tornado hull shape (I believe) for some time

The Tornado is a one design... May be not a true strict one design like the laser but still one design. It is defiatley not a formula or a development.

Cannot agree with that.

Free choice of sail maker (unlike laser / topper/ Dart).
Free Choice of builder (in theory).
Free Choice of Deck layout.

One design classes are specced to VERY tight tolerances so that the boats are (as much as possible) the same

I would call the Tornado a 'limited development' class like the International 14 / Europe / Finn.

The 49er is more of a one-design than the T

Actually the 49er is one manufacturer, just like Hobie or Laser.

Tornado's are as close to one design as can be without limiting the manufacturer. The mast is one manufacturer for the next two years but that is all.

There needs to be a clear definition between "one design" (one single design with tolerances for layout and building methods/ideas) and "one Manufacturer" no tolerance for changes to anything.

The Tornado is a classic one design like the 470 and the Star. The boats are controled by the sailors for their enjoyment.

The Dart, the Laser, The Hobie 16 are manufacturer classes. The boats are controled by the manufacturer for their reasons.


The Tornado Class Association owns and controls the design subject to the interpretation of the ISAF and the whims of the Olympic committee. If we want to change something, we can, we vote and every vote is important.

That reminds me, I need to pay my dues

Carl Bohannon
US782

Not true

The IDA control the class rules. If the manufacture wants to change the boat in any way, they need to get permission from the class, this is also true of the Hurricane 5.9

Carl has it right.

In one-manufacturer classes the boats may all be identical, but that does not make for true one-design racing. If all the boats come out of the same box, then in order to have true one-design racing, all of the sailors would have to come out of the same box and be identical, too.

One-designs in the traditional sense allow sailors to have their sails cut full, medium or flat to compensate for weight differences (and height differences) among the sailors.

Mary et al

I will agree with you if the Class rules state something like :

0-60kg will use class rule cut sail A (with the cut points defined, shape/ luff curve, batten type and length)
60-70kg will use class rule cut sail B(")
70-80kg will use class rule cut sail C(")
etc.

If the class rules state that the sail shape is free, then it is not a one design, it is a developemnt class (if only in a limited sence)

One design means ONE DESIGN with tight tolerances on EVERYTHING. Yes these classes do become weight dependant - laser being a classic example. The lazer is a one design class that happens to be one mmanufacturer - can you have different cut sails on a laser (no), ditto dart, hurricane thus one design

VERY simple question to clear this up.

Q, Are 2 sails that are a different shape (in X, Y or Z) the same design ?
A, No

Hi Guys, interesting stuff here, difference between one-design & one-manufacturer can have grey areas and overlaps or inconsistencies.
"Actually the 49er is one manufacturer, just like Hobie or Laser." Yes, but in all of these classes, (including Dart 18, for Simon`s benefit), there are licensed builders in many countries, to be built within some very loose tolerances in some classes, which is quite surprising, since in these "strict one-design" classes you would expect the boats to be very similar.
The South African built Dart 18`s are stiffer & lighter than the UK boats due to a superior polyester resin(or at least were in 1999 at the Worlds), some 12 British sailors bought SA built boats & shipped them back to the UK which started some interesting politics in the manufacturing license side of things, since the SA builder is licensed to sell boats in Africa, not in Europe, but the license agreement can`t stop him selling boats to sailors from the UK. Technically speaking he sold the boats in SA, but knowingly for export back to the UK, at half the price of a British boat, helped by the exchange rate between currencies. This caused some problems for his license agreement, since he was building under license to the UK builder, not the IDA. Perception with one-manufacturer classes is that the builder can overcharge because he is the only licensed builder / sailmaker in his country. Sadly this is also a reality in most cases, so you get a basic boat at the price of a thoroughbred.

Macca put it best :
"There needs to be a clear definition between "one design" (one single design with tolerances for layout and building methods/ideas) and "one Manufacturer" no tolerance for changes to anything."

You can guarantee that hulls for Hobie16 built in the different countries that are licensed will differ quite a bit from eachother in stiffness, strength & weight, depending on the builder`s level of skill and conditions in which he operates. Even boats from the same yard will differ slightly. I`d put money on a French built boat rather than a US built H16 (sorry guys), but that`s the way it is.

One design rules typically have quite large tolerances in building methods and measurements to allow for home-built boats by non-professionals. Sure, professional builders & skilled home-builders will manipulate these tolerances to maximise performance, but within the given rules it probably produces boats with as much consistency (if not more) than "one-manufacturer" classes. The down-side of this can be that the top boats are those built closest to the tolerances and make older boats redundant, having said that it`s the same with Hobie etc, the newer boats are much lighter & stiffer than 10year old boats, making them redundant in a competitive sense.(they have added Carbon cloth to their layup).
If you look at the Tornado fleet, the only reason it appears to be "one-manufacture" is that the sailors demand the best boats, and only one builder seems to give them what they want, so he has risen to the position where all competitive sailors buy his boats, but nothing prevents another builder from challenging this status. It`s the same in A-class, even though there are many builders and the rules are so open, the hull shapes all migrate towards what is fastest at any given time, the mast length has settled down to what it is now despite it being unrestricted, and the different boats are remarkably similar in performance. If they weren`t, the slower ones would fall away.

One-design ? One manufacture ? One should be cheaper, but very often isn`t, which negates any advantage it may have had.
Either way, you choose whatever suits your style of sailing.

Cheers
Steve

I would like to add that I grew up sailing on a Lightning, which was at the time the largest one-design class in the world. It had multiple manufacturers, and you could buy your sails from anywhere and have them cut to the fullness degree you needed for the weight of your crew and also for the sailing conditions where you normally sail.

The concept of one-manufacturer one-designs where you can only use the manufacturer-specified/provided equipment is relatively recent. The ultimate is the Laser, and to be competitive at the highest levels in the Laser, you have to weigh between 165 and 175 pounds. At the lower levels in the Laser class, the story is that if the air is light the lightest sailor will finish first and the heaviest sailor will finish last; in a heavy-air race the heaviest person will finish first and the lightest person will finish last.

In my opinion, that is not one-design racing.

I have to agree with you Mary, in one-manufacturer classes with such strict controls the specific boat favours certain weight crews, while one-design with a choice in sail cut allows a much greater varance in crew weights to be competitive. In the SA Mosquito fleet the weight of the top two guys is about 145-150kg (2-up), they still win in the light stuff. Surprisingly our top junior sailors are about 120kg, and are still competitive when it blows, even giving the heavyweights a hard time in up to 27 knots. AND we all have the same cut sails by the same sailmaker (by choice), but can flatten the sails using diamond wire tension, mast rotation and downhaul. Boats like the H16 & Dart 18 just don`t allow for that type of adjustment. They criticise us saying we are "always fiddling", but then at least I know who`se going faster !

Steve