No, not a performance comparison, just a discussion on how the two can share a race-course together safely, without incident.
I`ll address a few issues. Feel free to disagree or contribute, let`s keep it nice & friendly. I started this discussion in another thread but in the context of that thread it got a bit out of hand.

When a spin-boat goes downwind he sails deeper than a non-spin boat. Both are sailing their "proper course", but their courses are converging, assuming the spin. boat started higher than the non-spin boat. This does occur through a number of situations and is impossible to avoid all the time. (A non-spin boat gybes at the mark, then gybes back 50m later, he has put himself to leeward of a spin. boat who rounds the mark after him. They are both on starboard.) In this instance the spinnaker boat is the weather boat and MUST KEEP CLEAR, under the current rules.
(I am not lobbying to have rules changed, just looking at the options.) Having said this I believe the current rule assumes that both boats are carrying spinnakers, or not.
The rule is also written to allow the leeward boat to protect his source of wind, essentially it is a performance-based rule first, and a safety-based rule last, and is biased toward racing situations (in cruising it would not matter much which yacht has right of way, as long as it`s one of them, and everyone is clear on which one !).
Another factor to consider when sailing with a spinnaker is that if you`re hit by a big gust, your only safe course of action is to bear off to prevent a capsize. Now, I`d rather capsize than hit another boat, but what if you are close to other boats and might capsize onto another boat ? This might occur if you saw the other competitor gybe away onto port, and missed seeing him gybe back onto starboard 50m below you, as you were hoisting the kite at this moment.
Another thing to consider is the issue of blind spots. On all boats they exist, and people do have accidents because they failed to see the other competitor. In fact I`d imagine a large pecentage of accidents start this way, and they only see eachother when the right-of-way skipper has all but lost his voice from hailing. At the speed we sometimes travel you don`t hear a call until it may be too late.
Ok, let`s look at the blind spots.

The images show your blindspots in 3 different situations : Single-handed trapezing, single-handed sitting, and double-handed. All assume you have a window in the mainsail. Now, depending on the angle of heel, the window might be showing you the water rushing by to leeward, and nothing else.

So, assuming the rules are not going to change until we`re all old & sailing hydrofoil boats at 50 knots boatspeed, what`s the best way to avoid this (other than not using the spinnaker ).
Please, no comments on how only a "poor skipper" would ever get into this situation, only a non-racing sailor would have this outlook.

Cheers
Steve

Ok, the images will have to follow one at a time, I`m not getting it right the other way .....

image 2...

One too big, one too small, hope this one is better....

Ok, so you get to A-mark, and you are boat "F". I`ve put in an offset mark as Wouter suggested, to keep the boats beating separate from those going downwind. From the situation you`re in, you can`t go below the others, everyone is too close and boats "D" & "F" call for water at the mark on you.

So now, if you hoist the kite, you will converge with the boats who rounded just before you. Answer : don`t hoist yet.

So you beam-reach off to get some separation, then hoist. You have just delayed the point at which you will converge with the other boats, but have given yourself more options.

A gap develops between boats "D" & "G", and "F" has gybed away, so you gybe through the gap to get to leeward of the other boats. The problem is that now you are approaching the boats still beating to A-mark, you`re on port, and oh yes, you`re also weather boat. If "F" decides to gybe back you`re in a spot of bother as well, as now he`s on starboard.

Man, you gotta have eyes everywhere !!

Oops, sorry guys, you are boat "E" in this whole scenario, not boat "F"

I think that if I was a spinnaker cat, boat E, If I could not have got water inside boats D & F between the A mark and the spreader mark, I would have tucked in behind one of them, even if it meant slowing down. Then when I reached the spreader mark I would have had the option of gibing away as I hoisted my kite. Especially if they were non spinnaker cats, because I would know that once I got clear air I would leave them sitting.

The second point I would make is that it is very difficult for E to judge the angle and gap between D and G (if they are anyway close) in attachment 4. If you are heading for the gap, unless you have your angle perfect, you may have to bear off to cross G's bow - slowing down (on port in front of him), or harden up to cross behind D - risking capsize onto D in a gust.

Of course, you still have to keep an eye out for F and the other cats still heading upwind.

Just my humble, friendly , input.

>>and you are boat "F".

...

>>and boats "D" & "F" call for water at the mark on you.


How can I call water on myself ?

I guess YOU = boat E and not boat F

Wouter

In this situation I would deploy the "slow down and win" tacktic. Slow down the boat let F and D pass and dive around the mark behind them and Gibe to a Port Tack. While hoisting the spi sail to below F and be rid of all downwind boat from then onward as I'll be sailing faster and deeper with the spi. The other spi boats are not much of an issue as they sail as fast and as deep as me and have to do the same thing in gusts.

The only drawback of this scenario would be that I could encounter SOME boat going up to A-mark sailing on a port tack. However! This is not a big risk as never alot of boats approach the A-mark that close on a port Tack. Often only 1 or 2 boats try this in larger fleet and it should be enough to spot them (skipper) when you are hoisting the kite. You will see quickly enough wether they are close enough to meet you or not. Most other boat going upwind will either have sailed trhough the middle or over the starboard side of the course and approach the A-mark on a starboard tack from quite a distance away.

So in principle you are not really in a jam yet.

Wouter

Nope....Classic team racing ploy is when sailing down wind and there is one of the oppo coming down on top (and has become committed) is to drop the kite and luff then into fouling you - instant 360 reuired, you re-hoist the kite and disappear.


so you always should have room to get low by ensuring you are passing well to windward or gybe and go behind



So know where your blind spots are and make sure you look around (or under) them, a small bear off and the you can look under the kite no problem.



That is what I would do, delay hoist, even try and get inside the other boats by going extra low (as you will to hoist the kite anyway) once passed the mark - NON kite boats will want to power up ASAP and will not be interested in keeping you above them (usually)



Maybe so, but you now have some space to work with and can now decide where you want to gybe (or not), you might just be able to power over the top (with some room for the gust induced bear off).




Yes, you need eyes everywhere - to sail fast you need your eyes out of the boat most of the time.....




Yes, agree with you here Durmot.

Also, the boats going to windward should be predictable as they all (should) at this stage of the beat be aiming for the Stbd layline as you are all close the the top mark - thus it is unlikly that they will be tacking early unless there is an overriding tacktical reason to do so, which you as being widward of them should be able to spot a mile away.

All this comes back to the fact you MUST keep your eyes out of the boat and avoid collisions, but by keeping your eyes open you (should) always have a good appreciation of what everyone is doing and why - Afterall the boats downwind of you coming up the beat are telling you what the wind is doing down there (and assuming you are travelling faster that true wind) you will want to know if you are about to sail into a header (good - should be able to sail lower) or a lift (bad - will need to sail higher, or gybe)

My 2 pence

#1
I also found that often a spi boat points higher then a non-spi boat downwind. When I compare boats like Hobie 16's with F18's the H16 always tend to sail deeper with the boom swumg outward while the spi boats look for hotter angles.

Apart from that I agree with your drawing. However from a distance it is easier to spot and aim for a gap in the line and by reaching away you have giving yourself room for a hoist.

#2
The wingmark (seperation) is often below a reaching leg from A-mark. I your drawing you put it on a reaching leg. Reason to put it lower is to allow more seperation to happen before the mark is met. The spi boat will reach and then hoist there spi BEFORE rounding teh wingmark, So they'll steer two courses on the leg; a reaching one and a broad deep reaching one. The non spi boat tend to shy broad reach to the wingmark in a straight line

Wouter

#3
>>The problem is that now you are approaching the boats still beating to A-mark, you`re on port, and oh yes, you`re also weather boat.


I don't think this is much of a problem, meaning you won't meet many boats here. As it is decively unattractive to approach the A-mark on a port tack because you won't have any right of way at the A-mark. For this reason the bulk of boats tend to go through the middle of the course and tack away to the starboard side well before reaching A or sail over the starbaord side of the course completely. In combination with the wingmark this means that seperation can largely be expected. It must be doable to remember the 1 or 2 boats making this unattractive port approach to teh A-mark and remember to steer around them at an early stage. It is not like boats are steering to this course at a late moment. These boats are practically always on this tack for a long time as they had to go way out to the port side to even be in the region where encounters can occure. Any earlier tack to the starbaord side will have put them to the starboard side of the course and cause seperation.

Of course it is also important to have long course when mixing large fleets of different boats. If anything lapping boats must be avoided as this greatly confuses the racing. Best is where the lead boat is never closer to the last boat then a single upwind or downwind leg. This is easiest for all (when using a wingmark)

#4
>>If "F" decides to gybe back you`re in a spot of bother as well, as now he`s on starboard.

Yes but he is not in your dead zones anymore ! You can easily see him know and he has right of way, so this should not be a problem as there is no confusion or blind spot preventing the burdened boat from seeing the situation develop.


Wouter

Steve,

You made several false or strange assumptions.

A spin boat DOES NOT always sail deeper than a non-spin boat.
Some non-spin boats have proportionately large jibs and sail very deep.
Modern spins are designed to be sailed very high.

The current Rules make no assumtions about the type or number of sails that boats are using.
On the contrary, the Rules are designed to allow different types of boats to race each other safely.

The rules under which almost everyone races are the ISAF, Racing Rules of Sailing.
They are for and about boats RACING.
The ISAF makes no rules and has no juridiction whatsoever over non-racing boats(see COLREGS).

Most accidents have nothing to do with blind spots.
They are usually caused by people who don't make the effort to look where they are going.

You are going to keep beating this blind spot "dead horse" ad infinitum aren't you?
LET IT GO!! It is not, and never will be a legitimate excuse for hitting another boat.
Everyone else has also explained this to you, when are you going to get it?

You asked for "nice and friendly" and then you insult me because you don't understand my comments?
Right-of-way sitituations occur all over the course involving even the best skippers.
The good skippers see the potential situation coming and are prepared if some novice
is barreling across the course with no regard for his fellow sailors.
A poor skipper blasts along without looking well ahead of his boat and has to make a crash tack, or just a crash,
because he drove his boat into a situation that was too difficult for his skill level.
In simple terms, a good skipper plans, a poor skipper makes excuses.

By the way, I have averaged racing in 10-12 regattas per year, avg. four races per, in small lakes, big lakes,
bays and the ocean, for the past ten years.
I regularly race in mixed fleets with uni-rigs, sloops and spin boats, from 14 to 20 foot.
Where I race, if you don't learn how to identify the "poor skippers", you will pay the price one day.

Hi Sam, thanks for setting me straight there.

It is you who made several false or strange assumptions.

"A spin boat DOES NOT always sail deeper than a non-spin boat."
I never said they ALWAYS sail deeper.

"Modern spins are designed to be sailed very high."
Yes, relative to their apparent wind.
In strong wind a spin. boat hoists the kite, sheets everything in tight, and BEATS to the bottom mark against his APPARENT WIND. He is actually sailing dead downwind, relative to the TRUE WIND. If you`ve ever done this you will know that sometimes a gust hits you and you find that you are "pinching" to lay the mark. The only non-spin boat that is sailing "deeper" than this boat is, in fact, running by the lee.

When a spin. boat is hit by a gust, they NEED to bear off. Show me one who doesn`t, and you`re showing me someone about to swim. (Not 2knots, gusting to 5, but 15 gusting to 20.)

"You are going to keep beating this blind spot "dead horse" ad infinitum aren't you?
LET IT GO!! It is not, and never will be a legitimate excuse for hitting another boat.
Everyone else has also explained this to you, when are you going to get it?"

Sam, thanks for your insightful, intelligent and non-confrontational response.
When are you "going to get" the fact that I never said it was a "legitimate excuse for hitting another boat" ?

Just thought I`d share my thoughts with others and see what they think. I KNOW that when sailing with the kite in a mixed fleet I have to be wide awake on the downwind, epecially if it`s gusty and I have to bear off radically from time to time. I also know that if I bear off on top of another boat & force him to change direction, I have to take a penalty. Maybe my point was actually that in such a situation, there are too many skippers out there that will enforce his rights and cause a collision, when the right thing to do is avoid contact and sort it out in a protest if necessary.

Sam, I never knew it was compulsory for you to read my posts if you think I`m "beating a dead horse".

Hi Wouter,

"In this situation I would deploy the "slow down and win" tacktic."

ME, SLOW DOWN ??? NEVER !!!!

Points taken, this makes the most sense so far. Thanks.

I've noticed it mentioned several times that few boats make a port tack approached to the windward mark in a mixed fleet. If your definition of a mixed fleet included dinghies such as Lasers then this might not be the case, a port tack approached on the edge of the two boat length zone isn't unusual.
Its also been mentioned that the best method of avoiding the situation is avoiding "poor skippers", while I dont agree with classifying anyone as a poor skipper from my experience it isnt the sailors at the front of the assymetric fleet who run you down but more likely the sailors with less margin of control and that is easy to spot and avoid with a few seconds of observation.