Go with the Hobie 16.
All those owners can’t be wrong.
And whatever you do don’t bother reading anything by this Wouter guy.
He will have you in such a tail spinn you’ll end up buying a jet ski.

>>By the way: Have you sailed the HC16 singlehanded?,- if so, what are the chances to raise it alone, with the help of a raising bag as this site sells?

I did actually right the H16 twice singlehanded (have sailed it singlehanded more often). Both times I was sailing with a women/girl (2 different persons) both weighting in at a heavy 50 kg's without much experience. Problem was I stuffed the boat in some strong winds and chop. Girls overboard and I'm thinking. "please don't turtle" . So i that that mast going and two eyes noticeable showing a change of mode. In situations like this you find some extra strength and will somewhere as a guy. Got it up both times but I never want to do that again. Had muscle ache for days after that as I was hanging and slowly slowly climbing the line as the boat, ever so gentle, pointed her mast to the air. I was dumb. should have gone out both times are brough righting aids.

Have never tried righting aids.

Up till now my shear fanatisme have safed the day a few times.

I'm 1.85 / 85 kg.

Wouter

Sorry, Wouter, but I am a hard-core one-design racer, and it doesn't matter a whit to me how fast or slow the boats go as long as all the boats go approximately the same speed. Those Hobie 17 Sport sailors in Dubai apparently have not noticed that their boats are half sunk, because they are having too much fun racing.

You are absolutely right that people usually try to convince a new sailor to get the type of boat that they themselves sail and do not consider the needs of the sailor and the conditions where he is going to be sailing.

Personally, I don't care what kind of boat he gets, but my recommendation would be a Dragon. It's one of my favorite boats, and it is designed for the waters in his part of the world. I sure as heck know I wouldn't be sailing a beach cat up there.

Sorry, T55, I got carried away in my last response to Wouter -- although, I really do love the Dragon.

But if you really want to get cold and wet on a catamaran and you only have those three choices, it looks to me like the Twixxy would be the best.

However, if you can find a used Wave for a good price, you can put a jib and a reacher or spinnaker on it, plus a trapeze, and make it into a very versatile boat that you can sail in a very wide range of conditions and provide good enough performance to make it interesting. Something that you could "grow" with incrementally, so to speak, by adding more features as you can afford them or feel ready for them.

I don't know anything about the Twixxy, but I know the Wave has great buoyancy (can carry far more weight than the Hobie 16) and has excellent freeboard, which keeps you dryer. It can't sink, and it is very stable, and it has the flotation on top of the mast so it can't turtle, and it is VERY easy to right. These features make it safer when you are sailing in cold water. (Maybe the Twixxy has the same features.)

Personally, I would get a Dragon.

Thanks for the input everybody.
Perhaps it seem a bit weird to sail a beach-cat up here where the summer is short and the water is cold all year long.
We do have a beautiful archipelago area to explore, and an active boat culture.

I was thinking to take up windsurfing, but then I thought catamaran sailing would be pretty close + more social and a bit drier = warmer, and with a good dry suit + pfd it'll be no problem.

I'm going to Thailand this wintwer and there I plan to take a catamaran class and then rent catamarans for recreational sailing.
Hopefully they have a few models that I can try out and make my own opinion.

Can anybody tell me the diffrence between all these new plastic cats from Hobie, they all look the same to me:
Twixxy
Wave
Teddy
Dragoon

I still think that one of these, ~€5000-€6000 are within my beginner budget...(or a second hand Hobie 16)

"Can anybody tell me the diffrence between all these new plastic cats from Hobie, they all look the same to me:
Twixxy
Wave
Teddy
Dragoon"

Hi There, my opinion : don`t go for any of these boats, from what you describe your needs as.
The Hobie 16 will suit your needs, but only just, so it is the minimum spec / size of boat you should get. We have 2 sailors at our club that sometimes sail Hobie 16 together at 180-190kg. They are heavy for the boat, but it sails fine (and they have added the spinnaker kit), just realize that the limit will be in less wind than with optimum crew weight, 130-150kg. So it will suit you & your girlfriend fine. Not a great boat for single-handing in strong wind, again, recognize the limitations, carry a righting aid of some sort as well as righting lines & you will be fine. Out of what you say is available in your country it is the best option.
And regarding pitchpole tendencies : Once you have mastered the technique of sailing it in strong wind it is a very exciting boat to sail. The crew needs to have lightning reflexes in depowering the jib as it is a powerful sail, if this is done correctly, 30 knots is still sailable on a Hobie16. Pitchpoling is part of cat-sailing, as is capsizing & righting the boat. Learn to have fun with it.
The Hobie 16 also gives a dryer ride than many of the newer design cats because of the raised trampoline.

I don`t sail a Hobie, but have crewed on them for 4 years in all sorts of conditions, and have come home from a 55knot storm. There`s not a lot wrong with a Hobie 16, despite what some people say.

Cheers
Steve

...

Great, these kind of first hand experiences are very much appreaciated.

My points to get a Twixxie is still:

-Biggest of the new plastic Hobie cats, and hopefully not too "toyish"
-Cheap, can afford a new one Not some crappy second hand H16.
-Plastic hulls = strong and boyant for beginner
-Safe (less pitchpole tendancy than H16
-Big and fast enough for a beginner
-Don't need anything "race-legal" since it'll be the only cat around.
- ... Best thing of all Can take it ontop of car rack!! ...this is excellent because I don't need to spend extra $$$ to mount a tow-hook on my car and buy a trailer.

140kg is a lot of boat to be carrying on a roof rack. Nearly double the reccomended maximum of 75kg. I think you would still need a trailer for this boat.

You might want to consider a Dart 16. They are popualar in Europe, plastic (unbreakable) and fun. I had one, it was a good boat for both singlehanding and double. No daggerboards and kickup rudders allowed you sail over anything, and right up the boat ramp. Reefing sail and rollerfurling jib allow you to depower in a breeze. I think its better boat than a Wave or H16.

UK Class Association
http://www.dart16.com/

Builder
http://www.lasersailing.com/uk/boats/dart16/?i=1f51e5f59b5cb6585e7e74f5214ee768

Boat review
http://www.lasersailing.com/uk/boats/dart16/boatTest.php?i=12d3b95a7692762d22bc3889b1c6c69d

Bill

grob: You're right, it's too heavy.

bvining: I read the review and it looks like a very nice boat.
The thing is that up here I have to stick to Hobie and nothing else.
No Darts around and I won't drive to Germany or Holland to get one.

I'd sure like to have a big second hand market to choose from and then I could seriously compare which boat would exactly be the best, but the truth is diffrent.
...If anyone can prove me wrong, I'd be pleased to see some second hand Nacra, Prindles and Darts here in Finland

What are the usual wind conditions and wave conditions in the summer where you would be sailing? This could make a difference in your choice of boat.

Also, if you are planning to explore the archipelago and maybe do some camping on the islands, another factor would be the load-carrying capacity of the boat to bring camping gear, food and water.

I am also curious about whether you have beaches up there or whether the coastlines are mostly rocky. Are there beaches in the archipelago?

I don't know any exact numbers of the windspeed since I'm not a sailing or windsurfing much.
There are plenty of sailingboats and some windsurfers though so there is definately windy...And it's more windy than a protected lake since it's the sea whit lot's of space

The archepelago area has both larger, open water areas as well as smaller water areas scattered with¨islands.
Mostly the shores of the islands are 95% rocky/cliffs, but there are also some sand beaches.
(Make a search for archepelago + Finland in Google to see some nice pictures, I think there are totally >5000 islands and rocks out there, it's truly beautiful nature.)

The idea of catamran sailing here would be to explore and go for weekend trips as much as daysailing...No competitive racing, but speed is always a high priority, otherwise I could as well buy a comfortable "normal" sailingboat.

Mary,

Please allow me to provide a counterargument to your points with all due respect.

You are saying it yourself here :

>>Sorry, Wouter, but I am a hard-core one-design racer, and it doesn't matter a whit to me how fast or slow the boats go as long as all the boats go approximately the same speed.

YOU are a hard-core One-Design racer, today this is synonimous with hard-core Hobie Racing.
YOU are sailing at approximately the same speed as other boats, He has no other boats around.
It doesn't matter a whit to YOU how fast the boat is. In his case doing trip among islands (currents) I think increased boatspeed is added safety.

>>Those Hobie 17 Sport sailors in Dubai apparently have not noticed that their boats are half sunk, because they are having too much fun racing.

Well THEY are racing, T55 will be making daytrips. THEY are middle eastern men typically 60-75 kg a person. T55 I talking about crewweights between 145 and 180 kg's + camping gear/food/safety for the day. They are pleasure cruising in sub tropical waters, probably wearing nothing more than a bathing suit and life jacket. T55 will wear a thick wetsuit or a dry suit and be alot less flexible or agile when moving about on the trampoline that is likely packed with cruising stuff as well.

I did weekend trips with my Prindle 16's and Prindle 18's in the past (sailing to a regatta venues, doing them and then sailing back later in the weekend) and I really did appreciate the extra space on board. Not to mention the extra speed. More than once I had to sail against the currents past harbour inlets or against time to be at the destination before dusk. I'm not recommenting larger cats or advicing against the H17 because I'm anti one-design racing or supposedly dislike hobies, I'm doing that because I'm looking at T55 intended use for the boat. Sure one can cross the atlantic on a Hobie wave if ones life depended on it. Larger "cruises" have been made on rubber liferaft. But if one has the luxury of choosing than going for a larger cat is certainly the smart thing to do.


>>You are absolutely right that people usually try to convince a new sailor to get the type of boat that they themselves sail ...
>>Personally, I don't care what kind of boat he gets, but my recommendation would be a Dragon. It's one of my favorite boats,

I rest my case.

Again, I wish to underline my respect for you Mary, and for Hobie cats in general.

Wouter

No, Wouter, you rested MY case. Thank you.

I wouldn't worry about the top of your car rack, I know a few guys who carry there cats up there(Albiet its in pieces)Can this twixxie thing be up there without being taken apart? I just looked it up for hte first time online, looks like it has a little size and freeboard. Does anyone know a person in this gentleman's area that could give him a ride on a boat similar to his choices? Bottom line i think that would help him make a descision based on what would make him happy.

All European cars have a maximum roof rack loading limit imposed on them by the manufacturer. Most cars are 75kg, some are 100kg, some larger vehicles/vans are as high as 150kg. You need to check your handbook.

I don't know about the trucks in the US, and I am not going to tell you that you cannot carry a 140kg boat on your roof. But I do want to give you enough information to make your own decision.

Remember the max roof rack loading is nothing to do with the strength of the roof or the rack its all about dynamic stability of your vehicle. i.e going around a corner at speed or more importantly under heavy braking. It is stupid to think that a vehicle with 74kg on the roof is safe and one with 76kg is not. But these limits are imposed for a reason. You just have to decide if 140kg on a 75kg rack is too much. If you were to drive everywhere calmly at 55mph perhaps it will be fine but under heavy braking from 70mph a 140kg is likely to rip the roof rack off its rails.

I am sure Wouter can provide an equation to prove/disprove this assumption

In fact, it is not uncommon for cars with heavily loaded skiboxes (filled with anything but skis) to go over sideways in turns or avoidance manouvers. Especially SUV's :-)

Having the boat in a hanger is in my opinion the best way to travel with a boat.

I sailed a hobie 16 for 20 years, about half of the time solo and have capsized several times, solo. I always carry a riting bag with a 4:1 tackle and have never had a problem riting the boat (note: I weigh 95 kg and use a relatively large bag). I strap the bag to the underside of the tramp with quick release buckles so it is ready for use and the tackle line is already hooked to the top if the dolphin striker and bag. I use the tackle line as the righting line to keep the boat from turtling while I release the sheets and fill the bag. An added benifit of the bag is that it acts as a sea ancor when you initially rite the boat, giving you time to get things sorted out on the boat, then retrieve the bag and stuff it under one of the front hiking straps (on the down side, you have to get back to shore to be able to restow the bag under the tramp). Turtle note: I don't know how much weight is required to unturtle a H16 with a mesh tramp vs a solid tramp. I know 95 kg is enough with a solid tramp if righting cross wind (i.e., the wind helps get the boat on its side by wind pressure on the tramp).

As you seem to like the rotomoulded polyethylene boats, the only one that has not been mentioned so far is the Escape Playcat. These can be picked up brand new very cheap, £3999 in the UK.

However I think they may be cheap because they are no longer being made, I heard they were in trouble and a quick look on the Escape website revealed they only seem to be selling monohulls at present.
http://www.jowatercraft.com/Sail.html

Another option, though not a cat, could be the windrider trimarans, I bet the rave would be a hoot on a lake.
http://www.windrider.com/wrproducts.shtml

Finnish dealer http://www.windrider.com/dealers_int_popup.php?brand=windrider&country=finland



Gareth