And who ever said that Adolf Hitler was dead????

Wouter, I have a couple more questions about this single-fleet, open-class racing:
Do all the boats, 14 feet to 20 feet, spinnaker and non-spinnaker, all start together and all race the same course?

How long is a normal course for this kind of racing, and what type of course is normally used?

In Europe is it only the catamarans that race in this way (one start for all), or do the monohulls do this, too?

Mary,




That is pretty much the standard format. Certainly for all club races and local events that attract less than 30 boats. At some larger event (I say SOME events) a split is made between a slow and fast fleet BUT often the share the same start and course anyway. The split is then visible only in the final scoring and the seperate price giving. At only a handful of events the individual boats have their own start or course ; often these are their own nationals that they organise as a class themselfs. Only REALLY active classes like F18 and F20 have about 4 or 5 "own start" events. Classes like the Hobie 16 and Nacra 6.0's don't, simply because they are too small or they don't have a class association anymore.




Bouy racing => we always aim for 45 minutes. Races that are longer than 60 min and shorter than 30 minutes are regarded as mistakes by the RC. But everybody rather has a 60 min course than a 30 min course. 30 min is regarded as a "race in starting" followed by a run home. To short to make sailing on the course exiting. If a RC tries 20 min courses and they will have a revlt on their hands. Typcially we aim for 2 to 3 laps and often this includes a one triangular round and one sausage round. So you have to pay attention were in the race you are or you'll miss a bouy and get protested out. Pretty much all course have a gate at the bottom and even a pure up and down run has a offset mark after A to get some seperation.

Distance racing ; this is always single start - open class fleet. You may have some individual scoring but that is rare. I think only Texel and the Spring / Autumn and Westlan cups have them in Netherlands and they mostly have a combined finish list as well. Simply put; you start and race together with a total combined scoring and if you have a class (rare) than you CAN get a filtered out scoring as well. So it is up to the sailor what he values most. Good sailors in One -Design classes tend to race on handicap with the other makes over racing their own. They find more skill to compete against in the larger open class than against the sailors in their own class.

Distances races can have any course of coures.

By the way Yes last years we had a Hobie Dragoon (with spi), Hobie 14 and Prindle 15's race against the best F18's and F20's in last years REM race (110 boats - 50 miles) at my club. Because of the larger number of boat this race is split in a fast and slow boat SCORING fleet only, they still start and race together. The H14 won the 40 boat big slow boat fleet. The 70 boat fast fleet was won by an F18 and both came rather close together in the combined listing.

Good sailors arrive at the top of any listing no matter what, even despite ratings systems that have inherent flaws.





Mono fleets are far more organised along the OD route. However at club races they still mix up fleets to get good numbers. However I don't think we have to much active mono hull racing in mainland Europe. I think Uk is a little different. At least in the Netherlands they don't compare at all with catamarans. Only laser 1's make a impression. 49-er class and 420 / 470 classes are rather small and certainly don't have filled big event calender like the cats do.


But can he get back at the Formula 16 issues that need resolving now ?

Wouter

Well, apparently the way in which catamarans race in different parts of the world has some bearing on the way the F-16 rules are set up -- so it appears to be relevant to the topic. At least your answers have given me a better understanding of the intent of the rules as written.

That is true indeed.

Wouter

So, in the United States, because of the rating system we use, if we adopted the one-start, open-class system that you use in Europe the F-16 with spinnaker would have exactly the same rating as the F-16 with Hooter, and they would be racing boat-for-boat and be scored together for trophies. Is that correct?

This would certainly be the case for racing a T4.9 with additional downwind sail under Portsmouth. I'm not sure how it would work for an F16 compliant boat that didn't have a non-spinaker rating.
In that case, I would think that to race under the F16 portsmouth rating that you would have to be compliant with the F16 rule which has the midgirth requirement.

local races on my side of Au are generally 2 hours. Start at 2 home by 4.

Wouter, I have a few more comments and questions about the rules:

1. Just a suggestion that maybe in the rules you could change the word "gennaker" to "spinnaker." Gennaker seems to have a different definition in Europe than it does in the United States. I have always known the gennaker as a hybrid word that refers to a sail that is a cross between a genoa jib and a spinnaker and has a wire luff. In other words, a very lightweight reacher. About a year ago I learned that in Europe a gennaker refers to a spinnaker. So now when people use that word I am never quite clear what they are referring to -- or what they think they are referring to.

2. I don't quite understand the difference between Section 5 (Dispensation) and Section 6 (Grandfathering). Dispensation comes from the Formula 16 Authority and is "limited in duration and reviewed yearly." Grandfathering is done by the local F16 class organization, and it does not say it is limited or reviewed.
So, is grandfathering as described in Section 6 a permanent condition? Or should it be worded the same as Section 5?

3. I have a question about Section 6.1.3 "Both the SCHRS (ISAF) and Texel rating of the design must be equal to or slower than the rating assigned to the Formula 16 class."

I gather that this means the "local F-16 Class organization" cannot take into consideration the rating system used in their particular country? As you know, in the United States we use the Portsmouth handicapping system for our open-class racing. And since most sailors in this country are not familiar with the SCHRS and the Texel systems, does the local organization contact you (the Authority) to find out what those ratings are? Would everybody basically have three ratings, and how they use them would depend on whether they want to race in the Open Formula 16 class or in regular open class?

And, of course, those ratings are subject to change based upon performance, so if your SCHRS and/or Texel rating changes, that could affect whether or not you can stay in the Open F16 class; right?
* * * * *
You don't have to actually answer me. I'm just responding to your request for suggestions.

Hi Mary,
A few ideas from an also not-quite-European perspective.
You`re quite right on the gennaker / spinnaker question, but I think over the years the gennaker definition, among non-keelboat sailors, has come to represent any assymetrical spinnaker used predominately for reaching. I think the Aussies might call it the same, from skiff sailing where the assymetric really found it`s roots in modern high-performance sailing. The fact that, in cat-sailing specifically, our "kite" has become flatter than a traditional "spinnaker" has probably made the term "gennaker" more accurately define that piece of cloth out front that makes us go fast. Call it what you like, as long as it complies with the measurement rule, it will be F16 class legal. If Rick were to design a Hooter that conforms to the 75% mid-girth rule, it would be accepted as class-legal. (And I`d save up for one !!)

From What I understand the difference between dispensation and grandfathering is the fact that grandfathering is a more permanent form of inclusion in the class, and allows these boats to race on the "Closed F16 class" while dispensation allows boats a form of temporary inclusion that is open to annual review, and can only race in Open F16 events. SImply put, the Taipan has been given permanent dispensation ie it is grandfathered and can race in any F16 event, national, international with no limitations. (Although it has an oversize jib it has been accepted as one of the foundation boats.)
On the other hand the Mosquito has been dispensated, meaning that we can hold local and even national Open events, provided we welcome and allow ANY F16 compliant boats to enter. The Mosquito is dispensated for being under min. weight, but due to our much smaller sailplan, our ISAF/Texel rating is slower than that of F16, so we comply in that regard. But we can`t enter our boats in a World champs or international event. (Most SA boats are actually over min. weight fully rigged, it`s only the Aussies who build insanely lightweight boats. )

"3. I have a question about Section 6.1.3 "Both the SCHRS (ISAF) and Texel rating of the design must be equal to or slower than the rating assigned to the Formula 16 class."
And, of course, those ratings are subject to change based upon performance, so if your SCHRS and/or Texel rating changes, that could affect whether or not you can stay in the Open F16 class; right? "

Wrong here Mary, I think the US is the only country where you modify handicaps based on actual performance. Souns like a nightmare to administer.(Australia use the VYC yardstick, they might also do the same, not sure.)
ISAF and Texel use a system of measurements of the boat, and use a formula to calculate it`s potential speed relative to other known boats. Unless you change the boat, your handicap stays the same. I find this the most sensible route, it prevents boats being "ratings-beaters" and "rating-creep" due to inactive sailors in the class, or basing the class rating on the performance of a large group of below-average sailors. It isn`t faultless, but it works to a large degree. This is WHY the F16 class chose the ISAF/Texel systems, they are constant.
Furthermore, you can download the ISAF/Texel calculators, type in the specs of your boat, and you`ll have an (unofficial) ISAF/Texel rating. All it takes is a half-day of taking some measurements. OR send the specs of your boat to Wouter, he is working on a refined/improved version of rating system.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

Steve

Hi all,

on the east coast of OZ we sail a mix of race types. Some short course 1hr. duration, some older style 2hrs, and some long distance races. Courses vary from triangle sausage, to windward and returns all depends on the cat classes.

As far as handicap is concerned VYC yardstick is pretty much treated as gospel. Yes it is performance based and this saw the Mosquito with spinnakers yardstick reduced this year as it placed very well in most races last year. Making it harder for Mosquitos to win on yardstick in mixed fleets this year.

Most clubs run mixed fleet racing as there are not enough cats of one design to have a fleet. Generaly they will seperate results for a class from the mixed fleets if there are more than 5 of one class. But will not give seperate starts corses until there are at least 10 of a class. Alot of open reggattas will split the cat fleet on a Yardstick basis if they have 10 or more in each fleet, but they will often sail the same course with less laps for the slower cats. Although sometimes this "slow fleet" includes some 16' cats as well as 14 footers.

Regards Gary.

1. Spinnakers to Gennakers : I think Steve wrote most of the answer down already. The reason for the hybrid name is that such a sail is set as an spinnaker but the way it produces its drive is far more along the lines of a genua. It is a lift producing sail instead of a sail creating drive by pure drag.

To adres to differences in intepretation between regions the F16 rules include a definition of a F16 gennaker in section 7




I think this is the best we can do considering the circumstances.


2. This is a little bit different than how Steve answered it. (steve mixes up Open an Closed F16 fleets). The thing to realize that only full compliant F16 boats + foundation boats make up the (closed) F16 fleet; this (closed) F16 fleet combined with all dispensated boats (either grandfathered or dispensated directly) together make up the Open F16 fleet. Of course the next step is simply open class racing as we already know it; no need to rule on that in the F16 rules. International F16 events and Nationals are by default (closed) F16 races UNLESS specified otherwise. For example the DCC event in 2004 was specified as a open F16 events and for example Spitfires as well as Mosquito's could enter next to full compliant F16's.

Let me give all important F16 class rules on dispensation (of which grandfathering is just a part)








So all non-compliant boats may seek dispensation to race at declared OPEN F16 races/events by appealing to the rules defined in sections 5 and 6. There are two way to acquire dispensation. First to ask directly for dispensation with the F16 authority. Secondly, by invoking (satisfying) the grandfather rule and direct this request to the local F16 class official.

The only difference between dispensated boats and Grandfathered boats is that dispensated boats have a far better change to get invited at big F16 events like international events of large national events. It is more difficult to get dispensation directly as the craft in question must live up to the spirit of the F16 rules and be very comparable in overall speed. Example ; Both the I-17 (F17) and FX-one can immediately appeal to the grandfather status and race class with us. HOWEVER they are not expected to get direct dispensation as long as their class rules are SMOD based and as long as the F-17 flyes a much larger spinnaker. We welcome all dispensated boats (Direcly dispensated and grandfathered) to all open F16 events, but we not invite grandfather boats to F16 specific events while the dispensated boats may still be invited.

The current position of the F16 class is that we'll make all local events to be Open F16 class events. This included events like Tradewinds, Texel, Springfever, Foster, etc. Special F16 events organised by ourselfs are most often (closed) F16 events where up till now the dispensated boats have been invited too; DCC (2004), Inaugural event Signapore, Gulfport championships, Victoria State F16 Challenge, etc. We expect only the very important international events to be ever declared to be for the closed F16 class only. I leave that to the organisers but personally I wouldn't mind racing Spitfires and Mosquito's at out international events.

Last point I want to make is that ; Local F16 officials and Local race organisers have alot of freedom in determining how their event is run and who is invited or not. That is as long as they stay within the general rules of the F16 class, these do allow some significant freedom.


3. Steve answered this one pretty right. Indeed we can only use Texel and ISAF as they are the only ones that give a rating for any imaginable boat. For example how do we het a USPN number for a Mosquito ? There is no base rating we can use the modifiers on as is the case with the Taipan.

All I can say with respect to this point is that the F16 class rules apply and that the local official (Jennifer Lindsay in your case) has considerable freedom within these F16 rules. Eventually it all comes down to fair and equal racing. On one hand I hear that Hooters are noticeably faster than gennakers and on the other hand I hear that they get the same performance modification. Either one of these is wrong and currently I do not know which one. Personally I would love to get my hands on some more real life data.

Having said this, one thing is certain. Any boat with a non-compliant spi (what it is called) can NOT use the USPN system in combination with the Grandfather clause to enter F16 racing. The Grandfather clause specifically mentions the ISAF and Texel systems. The only route open to these craft is asking for dispensation directly. And you have to argue your case with the F16 authority; of course you can use the USPN way of rating boat in this request.

Such are the rules.

Wouter

Thank you, Steve and Wouter. The difference between dispensated and grandfathered is still a little fuzzy, and the respective rules could be made a little more clear to reflect the way Wouter explained them. And as you saw, even Steve misunderstood those rules.

And, Steve, we DO have a spinnaker for the Taipan 4.9. Dave White (Rick's son) used it when he won the U.S. F16 Nationals.

The reason Rick wants to use the Hooter when he singlehands is because, how shall I say this, it has been a long time since his birth, and he is not as agile as he used to be and has various physical problems. It is just much easier for him to use a Hooter. And if I sail with him sloop-rigged, I probably would not have the agility or strength to use the spinnaker, either. It's a heck of a lot easier to furl than to snuff.

In fact, one of the factors that helped Dave to win the Nationals was that his team had much faster spinnaker sets and take-downs as the regatta wore on, because female crews on other boats were getting too tired from the raising, snuffing process. Dave did not have a snuffer and launched the spinnaker from the deck, which was easier on his crew as well as being faster. (And easier on the spinnaker, too, I might add.)

As I have said before, I think a Hooter-type, furling headsail will attract more old folks and women and kids to the class.

Now, Wouter, you said the Hooter-type sail is supposedly faster than the spinnaker. What are you basing that on? I have seen no evidence of this. Has this been tested anywhere? If anything, I would think the opposite would be true. The purpose for using it is ease of handling, not speed.

Hopefully, Rick will get a chance to race against some other F-16's once in a while to get an idea of the difference.

In the meantime, maybe you need a rule that says dispensated boats using reachers cannot use them upwind. Of course, that would also probably require a corresponding rule that prevents people from using their spinnakers above a certain point of sail, even if the sail is cut flat enough to do so. It would not be fair unless all the boats are using their big headsails only on the same parts of the race course.

First, I'm going to jump to Wouter's defense. He actually said he's heard two sides of the story....a) that Hooters are faster and b) that they run comparably with spis. He went on to say that he'd like to get some additional data to figure out which is correct.

Now for the real point of the post....

It seems that there are two parts of the hooter discussion...one, how to furl and unfurl the sail and two, the shape of the sail.

As far as using a roller furling method to manage the sail, I don't think there is any rule prohibiting this.

As far as shape of sail, I checked out the north sails site to get some information on their Code 0s. The keelboat handicapping systems have the same midgirth requirements as the current F16 rule, so they had to develop them to fit the rule as well. The racing Code 0's that North makes a) fit the midgirth requirement b)are set on a rope luff and c) are designed for use with roller furlers. It seems that using this same family of design, it's possible to get a "hooter-esque" sail that meets the current requirements.

However, I've heard that the racing code 0's are rather twitchy to trim....anyone have any experience with that?

Jeff.

Mary,



Actually they are the same thing only grandfathering can be done at a lower level in the authority structure and can be done by the local class head alone. Full dispensation can only be done by the whole class authority. But achieving either one pretty leads to the same end result.





I'm sure Kirt Simmons and Geert Ruesink are now looking at each other to determine who was "the female" on board during that very race. !

And then we are still left to determine who was "the male" on the all-girls Alter cup qualifying team ! As they beat several all guys teams.

But seriously, we are not here to ban anybody. For serious reasons we can't remove the mid-girth rule, we'd be killed overnight in the international scene. But I don't suspect that the Florida F16 sailors will ban Rick from entering with his hooters. Eventually it is Jennifers call, and the individual RC's will determine how to best rate Rick in this attire.





This may be, but not having the girth rule as good as finishes us off in Europe, South Africa and Asia (over 60 % of the class). I'm quite sure that not many old, female or kiddies teams will join a dead class. We can go over this again and again , as we have done a few times in the past but the situation has not changed and so the end result will remain the same.

I say; bring your boat and race us, we will welcome you ! But you can't use the F16 handicap ratings or campaign for any international prices as long as you don't fully comply with the F16 class rules. There is nothing we can do to change that.




From http://www.catsailor.com/bestof_articles/Hooter.html

The Hooter : a Hot, New Sail with all the trimmings by Rick White,

And I quote :







Officially the F16 class rules don't even know what a reacher is (or a hooter). It only specifies a shape requirement for a downwind sail that for some reason can not be satisfied by a reacher/hooter. We must draw the line somewhere.

The other part of the argument revolved around furling headsails. Can someody explain to me why a spinnaker can not be cut flat and be furled just like a reacher ? Obviously the F16 class rules don't ban wires in the luff of a spinnaker or any other item that explictly forbids furling. So the issue at hand is not really wether you may furl it or not.

It also isn't wether the class rules ban a reacher/hooter type sail either. The rules don't say anything about that. They only rule on a maximum upwind sailarea and consider everything that is not a mainsail or gennaker to be a jib. So in effect the see reachers/hooters just as jibs. If you lower you mainsail area and remove the jib I'm sure the hooter headsail (reacher) will be ruled F16 class legal. So that isn't the issue either.

So this is not really about the F16 rules banning reachers or hooter. Because they simply don't.

I think the true issue here is that a under the current rule set a reacher sail set (hooter + main etc) can not be made to work well enough to beat gennaker fitted F16's. The same can be said of many other possible design features. For example foamless hulls (to much overall weight) or unstayed masts (to inefficient compared to rotating masts). None of these are banned.





But we aren't banning anybody from setting their spis upwind now.

Basically, we never looked at the reacher/hooter sails when we drafted the rules. We never included the mid girth rule to explicetly ban them. We simply forced a shape parameter for the gennaker because the class would not be able to growth and be succesful without it. In this respect it is the same as the 2.50 mtr width limit. And we are not going to have a rule that says that 3.0 mtr wide F16-like boats can race as F16's when they only have one person on the trapeze either.

So I guess the best way to adres this point is to design a spi sail that satisfies the mid girth rule and that can be furled. I don't see a reason why this can not be done.

Beyond that any sail that is cut very flat, has less the 75 % mid girth and it set ahead of the mast is regarded to be a jib sail. Something that they arguably are, even if they are identified by a new name like a reacher/hooter/screacher or Genua. They are all jibs, of different sailcut I admit, but they are jibs nevertheless.

Regards,

Wouter

Hi Steve

In my experience I've never heard anyone in Australia use the term "gennaker". The skiffs use "spinnakers", and so do the Mozzies.

gennaker / spinnaker and kite are interchangable IMO in the UK (at least in the cat racing genre)

A while back I talked to a sailmaker about this, and he said the term gennaker can be ambiguous, so if somebody orders a gennaker, he has to have them clarify exactly what type of sail they are talking about. I think the term "spinnaker" is universally understood, which is why I suggested using that word in the rules. Not everybody is going to go down and check the definitions if they think they already know what a word means. It would be unfortunate if somebody ordered the wrong type of sail for this class just because of a simple word misunderstanding.

Wouter and all-
As some of you know, Geert has the use of only one arm and we quickly figured out we were faster with myself as crew. One must remember that particular Nationals was early in the F16 development and the snuffers had "kinks" that were not worked out well then and most of the crews (male and female)were not used to crewing with a spi. Dave and his crew practiced the whole week before together on that venue and were the most practiced in the event. Their boat was also the most "aerodynamic" not having a snuffer bag aboard. By the way, Gordon was crew for Jennifer in that event so I hope you didn't insult him Mary!
In terms of furling, I agree IF we could develop a nice spinnaker (at least a "spinnaker" as far as the rating rules go because all rating systems I know of severely handicap a non-spinnaker headsail) that could be furled, that might appeal to a group of sailors that are intimidated by snuffing/bag launching and or the singlehanders. In that regard, as mentioned, it is not against our rules to furl a spinnaker.
In fact my new Goodall spi even has a luff string so it might be a natural for me to try this on-
Regarding a spi specifically designed to be furled-
I wonder Wouter, is it "illegal" to have battens in a spi or would this be handicapped severely??
I'm thinking if one can put battens in a spinnaker could one not use vertical leech battens to support the roach while still allowing furling
Anyway, just some thoughts! Great discussion- You can tell it's too cold to sail most places (or too rainy every weekend here lately!)-

Kirt

Hi Kirt,
Funny, but Dave had to practice all week. The guy he sailed with had never sailed before and Dave only sails about 2 or 3 times a year.., usually too busy working. Also, he had never sailed a Taipan at all before that week.

As for a furling spinnaker, I believe that can be done. Calvert told me last year that he could design a sail that would meet the rule and still be a Hooter-type. The whole mid-girth rule just seems silly to me when the Hooter is a smaller sail. And it appears that the Hooter sail is only penalized in Texel.., certainly not in the USA. In fact, with the DPN Rating the Hooter took less of a hit than the spinnaker until a couple of years ago.
And since the USA supposedly makes up 25% of the worldwide class, you would think we could have a bit more say in the whole thing.

The mid-girth thing is no doubt a carry-over from monohull thinking.