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Re: It is really simple actually [Re: Jake] #42303
01/05/05 10:06 PM
01/05/05 10:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Hi Jake

Your logic is confusing me... You knew you had a problem sailing your 6.0 and could not fix it by yourself ... and you did not have anyone else to learn from. (How is that a critique of open class racing after all it was your first three years of sailing a cat of any kind period?!)

then you write
"within sight of the other boats on the course, a flood of information followed"
So... now you had other people to talk with and copy. ... (how is that critically adressing the merits of one design racing?)

Sounds to me like its drawing on the collective wisdom and experience of the others who were much better racers then the folks that you talked with before.

On the bay, Greg Scace raced a Tornado (sloop) for 10 years in open class and he was the ONLY Tornado.... somehow he managed to aquire the skills to become one of the top racers in the area (one design or open). He was always the scratch boat and usally way out in front so he could not learn by watching others. He got better by sailing and working on putting theory into practice.

Now, He will be the first to tell you how much he learned subsequently doing a tornado campaign.... However, its not that all the boats were the same that was crucial to learning more (they really aren't... each rig is tweaked for the indivdual sailing style of the team) ... In reality he was now learning how to put theory into practice from the best racers in the country and just like you... he learned from people who really understood how to make a boat go. Then he figured out that coaching was critical to improving one's performance and made that step as well. Oh yeah... he increased his time on the water by about 50 fold.

So... was it the fact that the boats are all the same... OR... that he hung out with a better crowd of racers that was the difference in improving his sailing skills?

Sounds a lot like your circumstance... You now hang out with a more accomplished crowd of racers who know a lot more about sailing. Makes sense to me... but it doesn't speak to why this must (or only) occurs in one design fleets. (If you hung out with hobie 16 fleet while sailing your prindle 16 against them you would probably learn just as much in that open fleet)

Now... if you argued that the difference in your regatta performance was enhanced because you needed LOTS of practice in close mark roundings or crowded starts... I would tend to agree with you on the merits. However, in cat racing, I believe that this is a bit overrated as well. ... Its always a giggle to watch college dinghy hot shots jump into the Tornado class for an olympic campaign because they percieve the competition to be lighter. They are convinced that all that college one design experience will be crucial to doing well... It does not seem to work out that way though.

Anyway... I am off in a few weeks to a one design Tornado event... Not because the boats are all the same ... rather... its a chance to learn from the best. Likewise... I learn a lot from racing the I20's in the area... Its not the boats... its the sailors that are the difference and my ability to do on the water... what I understand on the beach.

Take Care
Mark

(ps Miami at the end of January is not a bad deal either)


Last edited by Mark Schneider; 01/05/05 10:32 PM.

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Re: It is really simple actually [Re: Mark Schneider] #42304
01/05/05 11:03 PM
01/05/05 11:03 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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You guys speak with too many words!

Mark,

OK - your point is a good one. The class of folks that I was racing in the open class were not as experienced or skilled as the group that I race against now. However, if I'm realtively new to sailing and go out racing a 6.0 amongst a Supercat 20, a Prindle 18 and 2 G-cat 5.0s, I'm never going to be able to understand how to extract the full potential from my boat (and theoretically thereafter, sail to the rating) no matter how good these guys are. They wouldn't be able to help me with the nuances of my boat. I have received copious amounts of help and advice from many different very high caliber sailors in our area but until I got on the water with the same equipment that they had, I couldn't see the forest for the trees.

So are you saying that you believe that you can actually learn more by sailing your platform amongst a variety of boats?


Jake Kohl
Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: Jake] #42305
01/05/05 11:17 PM
01/05/05 11:17 PM
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Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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Exactly.

Re: It is really simple actually [Re: Jake] #42306
01/05/05 11:34 PM
01/05/05 11:34 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Hi Jake

No... I would restate Wouter's point ... see above.

It's all good and fun, each kind of racing is a bit different and the emphasis changes and what you learn changes as well.

Obviously, the closer the boats are in performance and rig types the closer the two kinds of racing get to one another.

My other point is that what people really want is the sense of competition. On the water competition is fantastic and with closely rated boats... you know when its a win... close or loss on time. Competition though tracks with experience and so with small races the trick is to have people racing each other at all levels of the fleet.

(I was sparked by your comments about the questionable rating system though.)

Take Care
Mark











crac.sailregattas.com
Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: pitchpoledave] #42307
01/05/05 11:56 PM
01/05/05 11:56 PM
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Wilmington,NC
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Mary

I like formula racing better than one design because
1. Boat manufactures compete aginst each other so we get better boats.
2. You race boat for boat, first over wins.
3. Big fleets
4. Do not have to buy sails, parts from manufacture (can save money)
5. Can tinker and make parts and sails yourself.
6. Top sailors in formula so you can learn a lot.
7. Sailors can pick the boat they like (manufacture) and race boat for boat.
8. There are weight adjustments to include all sailors.
9. Formula classes are not tied to one manufacture so the manufacture can not control the class, the sailors do

Just a few reasons why I like formula better than one design.

Ahh, the question to you Jake is ... [Re: Jake] #42308
01/06/05 12:12 AM
01/06/05 12:12 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Ahh, the question to you, Jake, is :

Would you have learned the same amount or more during those initial 3 years if you HADN'T sailed against the group with the Supercat 20, a Prindle 18 and 2 G-cat 5.0s ? By sailing only by yourself ?


Sorry to answer your question straught away but I know the answer to that.

Each year one of the most enjoyable things at my club is to get a few of the intermediate sailors to do a few races. These sailors never done a race and pretty soon learned to only reach back and forth. Sometimes they think that after doing that for 2 or 3 years they can sail a catamaran reasonably well.

Than we put them in a handicapped club race and their eyes open up. First race they get completely killed. One time a very **** fellow just finished his first lap when the last of the other boat finished. He was not so **** after that particular experience.

What we do after is sort of very important. We greet these crews when they get back to the beach and help them out of the water and buy them a drink. While enjoying the rush of alcohol 1 or 2 of us sit down and mention we sailed their type of boat in the past and give them a few pointers. Quite frequently 1 or 2 of us offer to jump on board with them the next time and help them.

Halve the time they become more active sailors / racers. The halve seems to get back to what they are were doing before, reaching back and forth, but are from then onward mindful when commenting on their own sailing skills. But I can't imagine that these people came away learning nothing, something must have stuck. Some times they try again when they are ready and them we are ready to pick them up and make some sailors out of them.

Wouter




Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: Dlennard] #42309
01/06/05 12:28 AM
01/06/05 12:28 AM
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Bradenton, FL
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Yada yada yada yada...

What a bunch of talk when the answer is as simple as "why do we sail catamarans?" We like to go fast! If I wanted to race OD I'd buy a Laser or I14 or some other boat with a large following and hone my sailing skills against a huge number of people...

...but I'd rather sail fast. I started off on a H16 and it was a nice (cheap) boat to learn on but it's such an outdated design. No matter how good a sailor I am- the platform will never be very stiff. No matter how good my skills are- I won't weigh enough to keep the bows up in a good blow. No matter how much training I do- I'll never keep up with a well-sailed I20...

...and that brings me back to why I sail catamarans- I want to go fast! I want a spinnaker or a reacher. I want to push the boat beyond the limits of the old Hobie 16. I want to get the most amount of speed for my money and effort. If I wanted to spend a fortune to go slow-yet-competitive, I'd buy a monohull... or maybe even a Hobie 16


G-Cat 5.7M #583 (sail # currently 100) in Bradenton, FL Hobie 14T
Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: Sycho15] #42310
01/06/05 01:27 AM
01/06/05 01:27 AM
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Issaquah, WA, USA
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It is really up to the sailor. If you can not muster enough boats of one design, then open class is an alternative. In handicapped racing, you have to wait for the computer to tell you who won. Also, this relys on a rating system to correctly score each boat. IMHO, much more fun to race the same boat, and know the results right away. In our Hobie 17 races, quite often the boats finish less than a boat length apart.

Now to switch to more exciting results, check out the photo's from Melbourne at http://gallery.sailmelbourne.com.au/smgallery/album68?page=4
(my favorites are on page 4)
One Design Racing in action, also check out the close results.

Caleb Tarleton

Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: H17cat] #42311
01/06/05 03:40 AM
01/06/05 03:40 AM
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Jake
Quote

one-design (formula) racing


That is an oxymoron. Formula classes are development (but limited by the formula). OD is OD.

Wouter
Quote

-5- The OD cats are just a pain in the neck to sail. Cluncky systems, low quality builds, slow and bloody expensive for what you get.

-6- OD class sailors are often strikingly ignorant. A character trade that is difficult to life around when not being ignorant



Not true. Hurricane 5.9 is not slow or clunky.

Quote

-7- Equality between boats in an OD classes just based far more on principles of religion than reality. Anybody using sails longer than one year old and platforms more then 2 years old IS NOT COMPETITIVE in the important events. We all know it but for some reason always refuse to accept it. Also Hobie 16's from Europe are differently build the Hobie 16 USA. Marstrom Tornado's are different from say Reg White Tornado's (the original designers) and Ovington 49-ers are different from Bethwaite 49-ers. Their can be serious differences in quality between OD boats, OD sailor however refuse to believe that.


Oh come on Wouter, the Tornado is NOT a OD class, it is a limitee development class, as is the 49er (same hulls but different fittings allowed)

Quote

Each one of these sailors puts in more mileage in open class / formula events than SMOD events. Booth, Bundock and Dercksen are Tornado

But you are saying the Tornado is an OD cat (near the top of this thread), yet above (point -5-) you say that OD cats are clunky and slow



I like limited development classes, My inter 17 has standard Hulls and mast / running rigging (the expensive bits), but then I have changed a few things to make it more user friendly and easier to sail fast (cheap bits), but we do not have “inter 17 racing” at my club, we have SCHRS handicap racing where we have 5 boats on 107 (2 I17’s and 3 Shadows) and then a number of boats on 101 (Hurricane, F18’s etc). It works for us.

Limited development / Formula classes are the way to go IMO, but please don’t call them One design, they are NOT one design, the Dart 18/15 / Hobie 16 is one design. F16/F18/F20 and Tornado are a formula classes.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
easy answer [Re: Mark Schneider] #42312
01/06/05 03:53 AM
01/06/05 03:53 AM
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St Petersburg FL
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This is a NON OD post!

I dont like one design racing. I would say NON of us do. We all have diferent views. Diferent views, diferent boats! get it? diferent, not OD?!






Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: Mary] #42313
01/06/05 05:05 AM
01/06/05 05:05 AM

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I think most of my opinions about this have been expressed in one way or another by others, but let me add my $0.02.

Briefly (I hope!), I think the source of your perplexity lies in two assumptions that appear to be implied by your comments:
(i) there is only one relevant, or perhaps only one dominant, source of enjoyment for people who race their boats, i.e. the pleasure of competition that compares nothing other than on-the-water sailor performance within a predefined set of parameters.
(ii) strict OD sailing is the only truly ligitimate way to compare sailor performance.

Taking the second point first, many would argue that for most practical purposes, strict OD is really an abstraction that exists relatively rarely (as in the case of factory supplied boats for a particular event), and that in practice the performance differences between different designs within a formula restriction are quite small enough to enable sailor performance to be compared equally well as in many nominally OD fleets, while also having benefits in cost and availability arising from competition between multiple manufacturers.

I think this is a credible argument - it is at least consistent with the growth of Formula racing, but it does itself involve an assumption that may be difficult to prove conclusively. On the other hand, I think there are flaws in the other (first) assumption that are rather more significant...

I don't think anyone who chooses not to race OD would deny that there is any enjoyment to be had in OD racing. It's just that it's not the whole story. There are at least four other sources of enjoyment that I can think of, and any of these could potentially lead someone away from sailing in a particular OD class or towards sailing in an OC fleet:

(i) the pleasure of a sailing a particular design. This includes preferences associated with differing performance, equipment and required sailing skills, for example.
(ii) the pleasure of being able to modify their boat in the way that (a) suits them and (b) they think will produce the best performance on the water. While it may mean nothing to you personally, for many people this is a major component of why they enjoy competing.
(iii) the pleasure of sailing in a bigger fleet than can be provided by OD racing within a reasonable distance.
(iv) the pleasure of sailing against people they consider to provide the best competition available.

Of course the situation is complicated further by the fact that there are likely to be different costs associated with some of these factors. But in any event, I don't think anyone should find it surprising (much less worth criticising) that different people consider each of these factors to be of different importance in their personal choices of how they spend they recreational time.

Not everyone is the same. That's ok. Isn't it?

Mark.

I take it back [Re: ] #42314
01/06/05 05:11 AM
01/06/05 05:11 AM

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Quote
I don't think anyone who chooses not to race OD would deny that there is any enjoyment to be had in OD racing.


Ok, I take it back - Robi would deny it :-)

Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: scooby_simon] #42315
01/06/05 06:28 AM
01/06/05 06:28 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Sorry Scooby,

The Tornado and 49er are OD but they are not SMOD. Your Inter 17 is however SMOD.

There are varying types of OD from strict SMOD where you can only buy approved fittings and sails to SMOD where you have freedom of sailmaker, fittings and placement of, to boats such as the Tornado which can be built by multiple manufactures or even home built, but must fall within the build tolerances.

The Tornado whilst not SMOD, it is almost exclusivley made by Marstrom at present and is considered more OD than most other classes including Hobie due to Marstroms cosistancy of build. The Marstrom is also setting the benchmark for quality of build and performance.


Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: Mary] #42316
01/06/05 06:32 AM
01/06/05 06:32 AM
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Ohio
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Mary,

This strikes me as do you like Lasagna or do you like Steak? I wouldn't want to settle on either as my only food for the rest of my life.

I love OD racing, like my Lightning. I love Manufacturer OD racing like my Hobie 16 and more recently my Mystere 4.3. I love Portsmouth Racing with big starts and lots of traffic playing with all my friends at once. I love Formula Racing because it gives me the freedom to be a "hot rod" as David (davidn) stated. I love PHRF racing. I enjoy my catamarans. I like my lightning. I enjoy sailing my friends keelboats.

With each type of racing, handicap or OD, and with each type of boat, I get to learn. I learned different lessons at different times. I was lucky in that when I started sailing (Portsmouth on a Hobie 16) I had a number of very good sailors who really helped me along. I sailed Portsmouth with my fleet and Manufacturer OD when I traveled. Sailing a Mystere 4.3 and a Nacra 6.0 and a Bimare have made me a better Hobie 16 sailor than if I had only sailed my Hobie 16. Each boat made me work on different skills. Each kind of fleet I raced in taught me different things.

So, why does it have to be OD or handicap? Why are these two options so often considered as competing opposites rather than complementary formats both of which can be embraced by the sailors and regatta organizers at the same time?

Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: Mary] #42317
01/06/05 08:08 AM
01/06/05 08:08 AM
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Hampton, Virginia
Tracie Offline
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Quote
It is very hard for me to understand why everyone would not prefer to race against identical boats. To me it is a lot more exciting to race a Lightning one-design than catamarans on handicap.

Maybe it's because I was raised believing that sailboat racing is about determining who is the fastest sailor, not which is the fastest boat -- and that can only really be determined in a one-design fleet.

And if you think the fastest guy in a one-design fleet is only fastest because he has the fastest boat, you can have a race where everybody switches boats, with the fastest sailor taking the "slowest" boat in the fleet, and see what happens.

Maybe there are too many people these days who care more about having the fastest boat and don't care about improving their sailing/racing skills.

Maybe some people just don't want to know they are not as good as another sailor and would rather be able to blame it on their boat or on their handicap rating? I don't know. You tell me.

If you want to go fast and don't want to spend the time and energy to improve your skills, why don't you just get a personal watercraft? Want to go faster, just get one with a bigger engine.

Sorry, I am just frustrated because I don't understand it.



Mary,

I am with you 100%. While open class racing has its place, and I applaud all the efforts that go into collecting and calculating the Portsmouth numbers, I can’t understand why someone would want to sail under a number then boat for boat, if given the choice. (if that is what you are asking)
Yes, we would rather match race one other boat of same design then sail against a hodgepodge of 20 boats. We did it for almost a year on the H20 against Wick Smith. It was a true test of the skipper and crew’s abilities. We were equally skilled and equaled determined to out sail each other. When we hit the beach, we knew who had come out on top that day. We didn’t need to compute some numbers to tell us the outcome.

I don’t mean to stray from the subject, but I do sail in the F18 class, the class is in essence a form of the one-design concept. While the boats are of different manufacturer and may not be identical in everyway, they are where it matters and they share the same number.

While the F18 concept was conceived from elapsed time sailing, they could see that this was not fair racing and thus set out to create a better system. A single rating.
I think the aim of the creation of the F18 rule sums it up; "to provide fair racing for crews of various weights, from 115 to over 150 kgs, through the use of two different sail sizes of jibs and spinnakers, linked to the use of limited corrector weights ;" (I’ll note that this is just one of the reasons)

Tracie

Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: scooby_simon] #42318
01/06/05 08:20 AM
01/06/05 08:20 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Just to say I understand what you are saying :

Point 5 adn 6 are of course a little over the top. I know that. The base of these points is that I personally, more enjoy being part of a modern class that allows modest development and freedom to tinker about than strickt OD classes.

The other points come down to any ones personal definition of SMOD, OD , formula and Open class. In the main body of my point I tried to use the definition that I think most sailor give to these markers. My own prefered (and different) definitions are :

SMOD : Single manufacturer One desig class - You may only use factory supplied/sold part and nothing else, you may not modify anything to the boat beyond the setup as it came from the factory

OD : One design. Strict specs are give on a number of important parts (hulls, mast etc) forcing very strong similarity while the parts themselfs may be made by any supplier or builders. A good part of the setup is left unspecified and can be modified and changed to sailors wished (sheet system etc). This rather closely resembles are very strickt formula setup.

Formula : A defined box rule forces several important specs to a size that strongly limits realistic performance. All within this box rule goes.

Open Class : Completely free in designing, building and modifying a catamaran. Racing is either first in wins or handicapped.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Ahh, the question to you Jake is ... [Re: Wouter] #42319
01/06/05 09:32 AM
01/06/05 09:32 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
Would you have learned the same amount or more during those initial 3 years if you HADN'T sailed against the group with the Supercat 20, a Prindle 18 and 2 G-cat 5.0s ? By sailing only by yourself ?


Wait...wait..wait. I think my points are getting mingled with everyone else's.

- I much prefer OD (including formula) racing to handicap racing as I imagine most people do.
- I prefer handicap racing to not racing at all (by a LARGE margin).
- I think you can clearly learn more about tactics and the finer points of sail trim and boat handling sailing in a OD fleet than a handicap fleet.

I'm not saying all handicap fleets are crap and should be banned! Handicap fleets are vital to our sport and I'll continue to compete in them but whenever possible, I'll try to stick with OD (SMOD or MMOD).


Jake Kohl
Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: Mary] #42320
01/06/05 12:04 PM
01/06/05 12:04 PM
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline OP
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Warning: This is going to be a long post.

Since I'm the one who started this thread, I guess I should clarify what I consider to be one-design. And for the purpose of my analysis, I am assuming that all of the crews are of equal sailing ability.

To me, the truest form of one-design is that which makes the combination of boat and crew as closely equal as possible to all the other combination boat/crews, while all using the same platform design. The best way to accomplish this is with multiple manufacturers for the basic boat and with sailors allowed to purchase sails, running rigging and standing rigging from whatever manufacturer they wish. The ability to have sails custom built (flat, medium or full) for the crew weight is the number one most important factor in achieving equality on the race course. The Tornado is the best catamaran example of a perfect one-design, but many monohulls fall into this category.

Next best is single-manufacturer one-design for the basic boat, but that allows you to purchase sails, running rigging, and standing rigging from whatever manufacturer you wish. Again, sails are the great equalizer. Even with (or sometimes especially with) a single manufacturer, there can be considerable differences in boat weights. The only way to compensate for these variations (in addition to crew weight variations) is with the sails.

Third best is single-manufacturer one-design where ALL the components of the boat, including sails, must be purchased from the manufacturer and must be identical. This is not true one-design, in my opinion, because it takes the crew out of the equation. Only the boats and their “engines” are all (theoretically) equal. However, despite its flaws, SMOD seems to be very effective as far as getting one-design racing fleets going. E.g., Hobie in yesteryear and Vanguard at present.

Fourth best is formula racing, and it obviously is working very well. It has helped to revitalize the sailing industry a bit because it gets more manufacturers and designers and sailmakers involved.
However, formula racing has a couple of problems:
One is that most formulas have maximums and minimums, and a bunch of different boats can fit into that formula. For example, the Hobie Wave is an A-Class cat, so I presume that I could sail in an A-Class Regatta if I wanted to. And both the Hobie 16 and the Tornado were originally designed to fit within the old ISAF B-Class, which no longer exists. Both of these cases sound ridiculous, of course, but if all the boats that fit into a certain formula class would show up to race, it would be a very eclectic bunch. Sure, the slower boats probably would not win, and would probably hold up the racing timewise, but they would at least have a venue where they could race boat-for-boat just for fun if they wanted to. It may not be the spirit and intent of the formula class, but it is certainly something that can happen unless they close up the “box” formula.

Another problem with formula is that some designer is always coming up with a newer and faster platform. If the people who buy it dominate the class, either everybody else in the class dumps their boat and buys the new one, or the class dies. (It’s a lot cheaper to buy a new sail, as in a one-design class, than to buy a whole new boat.) When a Formula 20 class was just trying to get off the ground in Europe at least 10 years ago, it immediately died because Morrelli & Melvin came out with the Ventilo. I cant’t remember whether it was Pete or Gino who told me they felt bad about having destroyed the class because their boat was so much faster than all the others in that class. Everybody else just gave up. If everybody in a formula class decides to get the same brand of boat, then you are back to pure one-design. So it is almost like a formula class is just a sort of survival-of-the-fittest contest, leading back to one-design. (Maybe that has not happened in Europe, and that is where the Formula 18 has succeeded very well. But it certainly COULD happen.)

Fifth best is handicap racing, which is a completely different kind of racing. The best that I can say for it is that at least it gets a bunch of boats together going around the same course at the same time, which is more fun than going around a course by yourself and then doing it again to try to improve on the time, which is what record-seekers like Steve Fossett do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to sail as fast as you can and having fun doing it. It eliminates tactics, but at least you still have strategy. And if you really work at shaving minutes and then seconds off your time around the race course, you WILL improve your skills. But for most sailors, I don’t think a ticking clock is as good a motivator or pumps up your adrenalin as much as another sailor right on your hip trying to pass you or the guy 30 feet below and ahead of you whom you might be able to beat if he is going to the wrong end of the finish line.

Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #42321
01/06/05 12:30 PM
01/06/05 12:30 PM
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scooby_simon Offline
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scooby_simon  Offline
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Quote
Sorry Scooby,

The Tornado and 49er are OD but they are not SMOD. Your Inter 17 is however SMOD.

There are varying types of OD from strict SMOD where you can only buy approved fittings and sails to SMOD where you have freedom of sailmaker, fittings and placement of, to boats such as the Tornado which can be built by multiple manufactures or even home built, but must fall within the build tolerances.

The Tornado whilst not SMOD, it is almost exclusivley made by Marstrom at present and is considered more OD than most other classes including Hobie due to Marstroms cosistancy of build. The Marstrom is also setting the benchmark for quality of build and performance.


I disagree

A One Design is where there are VERY TIGHT tolerances on the build, for example a Nth of mm here and there so you end up with a boat built in the USA being as-near-as-damn-it the same as one built in the UK.

The Tornado is a Box rule with additional controls such as 5mm+/- on some hull measurement (allowing mutiple builds). For example there are differing rudder profiles, how can that be "one design". If the Tornado class rules stated (and I have not read them) that :

  • The hull must be this shape exactly +- small manufacturing tolerances
  • The front beam must be in position X
  • the back beam must be in position Y
  • The rudder profile must be this
  • The centre board profile must be this
  • the plates must be made of wood and laminated with glass / carbon
  • the sails must be this shape and made from these 'cloths'
  • the mast tip mass must be this
  • etc, I am sure you get the idea


then the Tornado would be a one design as the hull shapes would be the same, the sail shapes would be the same and the plate shapes would be the same

One design sailing is banded around as the solution everything. It is not (the Dart 18 is disappearing as it has been replaced by a Formula rule that allows freedom - F18).

The laser is about as close to a one design as you can get, but then this becomes a SMOD by definition. I do not actually beleive there are any non SMOD OD's around anymore.

you also state that my inter 17 is a SMOD, well it was when I picked it up from Nacra. I have now made changes to the deck layout etc but it is still an inter 17 as the hulls/plates/sails etc are the same. If I was to enter Performance week I would have to take some of this off the boat and make it less easy to sail. It still rates the same as an Inter 17 under SCHRS as I have only moved or replaced fittings with better ones etc.

My point is that a One design should be an "out of the box" boat. you buy one, you rig it, you tune it and then is goes as fast as every one elses, BUT, because there are some compromises that have been made in either the design or build, it may not be as light as it could be (only an example). If you buy the boat, change loads of fittings, buy your mainsail from Austrialia (because they make fast ones there for example), buy your jib from Sweden becasue these are fast for your weight and buy your kite from the states, is this one Design ? No, the sails are designed differently.

It is (box or otherwise) controled boat and so is a development class.

Taking this a little further.

I buy a Marstrom T and sail it for a while and decide I would like more volume up front (a La Reg White boats of old). I approach Reg, buy the drawings/plugs etc and build a new Tornado. My hunch is correct that a Tornado will be faster with more volume and I clean up totally for the next year, winning the nationals, Euro's and worlds. Now we are just starting a new olly's cycle and so every one wants a Scooby Tornado and Marstrom is now only supplying Carbon Masts etc. So you could buy a Marstrom Tornado, or you could buy a Scooby Tornado - is the tornado a one design class ?

I don't think so, it is a controled development class.



F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: How many really don't like one-design racing? [Re: Mary] #42322
01/06/05 01:05 PM
01/06/05 01:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
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Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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I'm sick at home so I have way to much time on hand to play to irritating know-it on catsailor. After so many hours in bad you get a little grumpy and soooo tired of just lying in bed.

So here is another Gem !


Quote

To me, the truest form of one-design is that which makes the combination of boat and crew as closely equal as possible to all the other combination boat/crews, while all using the same platform design.



I understand that this is a definition of OD but I also think that regarding the world from that perspective may be deceptive.

The definition is a typical example of where the answer is already defined in the question.

I think the thing we are looking for is the class of boats that makes the combination of boat and crew as closely equal as possible to all the other combination boat/crews. PERIOD

By adding the condition that IT MUST ACHIEVED by using identical platforms is soley itended to exclude a different approach to the problem.

We all know people are not one-design. Mark introduced this point yet again. If you are faced with a group of sailors ranging from 120 kg ot 170 kg than no OD class that currently exists approaches the level of equality that can be had in a formula setup. Simply because a platform will either favour light, medium of heavy crews. In a OD class as you defined it one sailor is noticeably better of then others. In a formula class however ; the platform itself can be modified, just as the sails, to compensate for the NOT OD-ness of the crews. Examples like open 18 ft skiffs versus 49-ers show the same trend.

And yes when taking two crews of say 150 kg weight than two different formula boats WILL be less equal than one single boat as OD BUT when realizing that crews in a class can range from 125 kg to 175 kg we can easily see how two different formula boats over a full range of crew can be more equal then in single ID platform that favours one particular weight over all others.

So the questions is do we what large fleets of equal racing or just OD classes that favour a narrow band of crews and say to all other crews that need to suck it up ?

What is fair ? How do we defined equality ? How do we defined competitive racing ? As two boat being exactly the same when sailing by identical crews or when two different crews (but with same skill) sailing two designs optimized for them are equal in the end result ?


Quote

Fourth best is formula racing



That is a pretty cold assesment of the Formula classes. Only one step from Open class racing. I think you will find that Formula racing is alot higher on the ladder. At least about SMOD when taking into account that we don't all measure in right at the optimal weight for that particular OD class. I MUCH rather sail at 15 kg overweight (or underweight) in the F18 class than the Hobie 16 class.

Than of course we are overlooking the setup of the various classes. Spinnaker equipped classes tend to be alot less sensitive to crew weights than non-spi classes. All this talk of OD being better is so one-sided. Significant factors are simply ignored in favour of some "perfect world" formulations. I dare say that F18 racing is alot more equal than most OD sailors think and it appears to be alot more equal than mind experiments do suggest.


Quote

One is that most formulas have maximums and minimums, and a bunch of different boats can fit into that formula. For example, the Hobie Wave is an A-Class cat, so I presume that I could sail in an A-Class Regatta if I wanted to.



How is that a problem ? All races have a cut of time. Everybody must finish 15 minutes after the first finisher or be scored (last finisher + 1 ) points. All boats still on the course can than abandon the race and group back for the next start. It is also alot more fair to unlucky sailors caught in a hole as they don't get a very large hit by being very last.

Fair racing is all about a crew not being able to buy or design an unfair advantage over others. When someone decides he is happy to put himself at an unfair DISadvantage than that doesn't translated in UNfair racing does it. He choose to do so nobody forced him and when he gets tired of it can again choose and back up to equality.

So what is the problem here ? It is just an invented problem to smack the Formula classes with.


Quote

Another problem with formula is that some designer is always coming up with a newer and faster platform.



Is that so ? We hear this all the time. How often did it exactly happen ? And more importantly how did such a thing impact on the class as whole. Even here the record is mixed. F20 / ventillo => class died, A-cat / Flyer => class grew.

Who are we kidding here. Is the problem that every few years racers need to buy new boats ? Is that it ? Name me one OD class where the true racers DON'T buy a new boat every two years. So what is different ? In case with formula classes, pretty much all improvements in sails and boards can be retro fitted to older designs. New sail design ? Get that oen for you old boat as well. To expensive ? You really think that your 3 year old sails are competitive even in classes like H16 ?

Sure it can happen that the design comes out with a faster boat but how likely is this really AND how do you know that the impact on the class is not a positive one.

Has anybody ever thought about the fact that F18 class grows because alot of still competitive boats are available on the second hand market at decent prices. Allow more people to get into to game at their budget. Happened in the A-cat class when all the top sailors moved to the Flyer. Therefor is it such a occurance really always a bad thing ?


Quote

If everybody in a formula class decides to get the same brand of boat, then you are back to pure one-design. So it is almost like a formula class is just a sort of survival-of-the-fittest contest, leading back to one-design.



One can have argue that with succes, however than one also has to argue that OD classes are only in an eternal survival contest always leading back to extinction. At least the formula classes are always garanteed to survive in one form or another. The may go OD like the Tornado has done and then at a later time diversify again like the 18ft skiffs did after a period of OD. All the time keeping a finger on the wrist of the sailors and adapting to the times and going with the flow.

As a system the Formula setup is actually quite a smart setup.

Wouter




Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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