I've been beating this thing up in my mind. F-16 vs F-18.
How many F-16's are there in the USA?? Southeast USA is my main area of inquiry.
I'll give you some slack and include in the count Matt's 4 unbuilt Blade-16s.
Does anyone really know? How about an intelligent guess without 492 e-mails saying mee too?
How Many??
CARY

Whats the reason behind the question?

Zuhl,

I'm going to make your life even harder !

Currently Matt has commitments for 7 boats. That is 7-1 = 6 are in the pipe line. There are 3 slots left before the supply of masts runs out and Matt has to get a new batch made.

From memory in the south east of USA we have :

Jennifers Boat
Hollis Caffee's Boat
Seth Sterns Boat
Rick Whites Boat
Chuck Harndens boat
Jeff Woodards boats
Kirt Simmons Boat (You may decide if we count him or not; he is in the Area D of the alter cup together with Florida)
Old Micheal Coffmans boat (I forget the name of the new owner)
Old David Swingles boat (I forget the name of the new owner)
There is another on in Florida since 2000 but he never posts on the F16 forum (I can't think of his name right now, sorry. I can look it up though)

This is 10 already. And I have a feeling I'm forgetting a boat at Gulfport cat club.

Of course Matts own boat, how can we forget that one !

So, well, 17 boats will be in the SE/Florida region in 2005 at least. I may have forgotten 1 here or there.

I hear Matt talk about promising additional commitments after a few scheduled test sails in Februari.

To cut a long story short. 17 at minimum (counting the committed slots) , probably around 20 within the year.

Yeah, this Blade F16 thing will be good to us. And thank God for that ! We worked hard at solving the exchange rate problem we had and this seems to have done the trick.


Ohh you also asked about F16's in the whole USA !

Ehh

California

3 Taipans, 1 Stealth, 1 one-off and I seem to remember that a wanna-be was there as well, don't know if he bought one yet. But 5 at minimum.

North East.

The group around Chip Zenke that is 4 boats (Chesapeak bay ?). Serementis, Zenke, Mullins and a 4th guy whose name I can't recall just now.


Ohio/Michigan
Bill Moran
Kenneth Newbury
Jerry Kailin

That is another 3

So that puts us at 17+5+4+3 = 29 boats already

I seem to remember that 1 or 2 boats are around the New York State/New Jersey area as well. I don't know what happened to Lars Gucks old boat. I sold Peter Cogans boat in 2002 to Alan Crawfort (Gulfport ?) . I know some boats were imported without me knowing about it. One of the californian ones was done that way. So make up your own estimate of boats that I don't know about.

Timer stop !

11 minutes, right. These are the boat I know of from the top of my head in 11 minutes.

I would say that around 30 is a estimate for the number of F16's for the whole USA

Ohh and David Parker at Gulfport Fl. is building up an F16 One-off right now that he hope will lead up to a full F16 in time.

Around 30 for sure if not a little over it. = Intelligent guess

Hope this helps !

Wouter

And the whole world ?

I'm guessing that it the next question


- Over 30 Stealths produced and shipped to places like UK, USA, Canari Islands, Spain, Holland, some middle eastern country

- 20 Taipans + spi in Signapore

- 4 or 5 of them in Thailand at last count (Early 2004)

- 7 in the netherland and working out a deal for the 8th. 3 more assured on the line as buyers for this year.

- South Afica (they really want to be counted so we will) about 20

- Australia (A big secret in order to not piss off the Taipan 4.9 OD class) but we have 6 public F16's over there. The remainder is in hiding.

I'm not counting the Spitfires in order to be conservative but there are suppost to be some 50-80 boats around of this make. I have never been able to get a good confirmation on this and some other sources mention the number of boats is a little below 50. Make your own appreciation of the situation here


So where are we at now (ex spitfires)?


30 + 20 + 5 + 7 + 20 + 6 = 88 Boats excl. the USA

So in total in the world makes 29 + 88 = 117 F16's

We are a bit spread out but at least we have promising beach heads in several different area's/continents so when it grows it can boom. We are also not to dependent on one particular area. This makes us quite resilliant with regard to bad luck like exchange rates.


Wouter

Spitfire 132 was on the circuit in September 2004. And I know that the numbers are correct and started at the beginning because we had number 11 in 2001. I have 44, Neil bought 80 in 2003. I know the owners of many in between.
So you can take it that numbers are about 140 at the moment. Mainly between the UK and France - with 6 in Ireland. The Spitfire Class is very strong at the moment and does not want to loose it's "One Design" status, but I believe that in time it will join in more in F16 activities.

Thank you Dermot,

Also, a class doesn't loose it OD status when it races outside of its OD class once in a while. If you guys can do Texel and not loose your OD status than you can do the same with respect to F16's. All in good fun.

Although I won't be too disappointed if you stay away just a little longer. Some of those Spitfire crews are awfully good sailors and will kill most of us in any direct racing. At the DCC we had some secret wapons of our own so we could risk it, but they have gone home now, now it is only us newbies !

Good luck Dermot !

Wouter

Cary,

I've got one over in Atlanta. I think you'll find that there are several (3-4) down in Tampa and another several up in the Chesapeake.

Amy and I were looking at moving over to the F18 this winter, but have decided to stick with the F16. As a whole, I'd say the F18 is a stronger class in the area. However, I'd go F16 if you think you'll find yourself sailing alone sometimes.

And the F16 is just crazy when it's blowing!

Amy and I are aiming to race the cat a bit more this year, but the J/24 will continue to be our primary boat. I'm guessing we'll get over in your neck of the woods for Tommy Whiteside...and may hit some of the smaller regattas before then.

Jeff.

We'd Love to see you for the Tommy Whiteside, We typically have some of our best wind during that race, End of spring and warm weather is here but still getting Spring Breezes. Would love to try out your Taipan for a test ride if you would be so kind. I have a strong interest in this F-16 class.
My Inter_20 is up for sale, I have plans for a F-18,but timing will dictate what I end up owning if there's no affordable F-18 at the time I switch boats. Will also affect what class I sail in. I love all the versatility in the F-16 class, although there are no ACATS here to race against. I'd love an A-Cat, I just wory about the ability of a boat that light being able to stand up to years of ownership and use. The only thing missing in F-16 is one-design racing, guess that takes the courage to buy into a building/growth class and hope others follow. Did that with the Inter20, don't want to make the same mistake again.
CARY

Cary,

We were at TW last year and the wind SUCKED! But we're still planning on coming back this year. I'm sorta hoping to piggyback onto the F18 schedule around the SC/GA area this year.

I'll be happy to get you out on the boat at TW...and will be over at CSC for J/24 Easter Regatta in March if you're interested in a beer and a chat.

As far as going to level racing in the area, as much as I hate to say it, F18 is probably the way to go. (Wouter, please don't shoot me). The reason I got the F16 was at the time, I sailed alone quite a bit and the lighter boat was the ticket for singlehanding. Now that I have more reliable crew and the state of the F18 class, if I were buying today, I'd go F18.

Jeff.

Cary,

It takes some courage to be early in a new class for sure. The F16 class though, has some great things going for it that the I20 type classes do not. The I20 and other big boat classes P19-MX etc. are made to race with 2 men who know what they are doing. In my opinion, this has been one of the contributing factors to the decline in sailing. Everyone wants to progress, but this has been to the exclusion of women and the wife girl friend teams. Not too many women are keen on going to watch, or be OK with the guy for going every weekend to race without them. Less women at a regatta?? you might as well take away the beer too.

The F16 class, now provides performance sailing in a package for nearly everyone. (Please do not get me wrong, 2-250lb guys going downwind in a big blow will miss the 4 extra feet, but it's performance belies the fact that it is only 5m long). The boat is nearly 100 lb lighter than the F18 class with higher power/weight ratio. It is "high tech" so that it can be tuned for a wide range of crew weights and conditions. In general comparison the F16 class is very comparable in performance dirrectly with the F18 class. If the guys in your area wont let you play with them in most if not all of the local regattas, you have other problems anyway.

When my wife and I moved to FL we moved from a Hobie only area. Here we were now racing protsmouth, with 1-3 of every boat ever made. With out the competitive 1design racing to keep it interesting we were forced to watch the guys on the higher tech boats having fun going downwind with spins, while we layed on our backs being the human boom vang. So, we decided to upgrade, and I began the search for the right boat for us. I looked very hard at the F18 class, but dragging that much boat around the beach combined with the fact that the min class weight is 308 made that a very unattractive option for us. The F16 class seemed to have the potential for performance and answeres for the detriments I found in some of the other classes. The fact that my wife, a diehard H16 crew, liked this boat says a lot. If you can get the oportunity to sail a Taipan, or we can meet up soon to let you run the Blade, please do it. You will be amazed at how well these platforms sail.

We are building the first run of production boats now, and will be fully up within the next 2 months. Give me a call or e-mail, and I can go over and maybe answer some more of your questions.

Matt

Sorry I'll miss you at Easter. I've sailed Nigel Pitt's Spring Fever Regatta for the last 5 years at Easter. As a matter of fact, When I took my new job in management 3 years ago, I made it a condition of taking the position that they'd never see me at Easter just so I could sail that event. See ya at the Tommy Whiteside. Love to sail your Taipan F-16, I have to test drive one before I make a wrong Call again. Every time I get Catless, I go into some kind of panic mode. Fortunatly right now we have more boats than room, so I won't have to go there again soon. On the other hand, I can crew on an F-18 most anytime without having to make a payment, Might be more fun for me to buy a different boat just for me this time. I sail all year long, and I really worry about winter sailing and freezing to death on a capsized boat that I can't right by myself, drysuit or no drysuit, I don't want that to be me. So When the water gets cool I depower everything for the winter, don't take any risks I can't recover from, and avoid some great wind days that I am cautious about risking my hide in. (Generaly I take the H-14 out then, but at my #170, it's not even fast when the wind is blowing. I just bury the leeward hull farther and farther. OK if you like sailing submarines.
Bottom line, there's no right answer here for me yet. All that will work out after I sell the I-20, and am forced to make a choice. Guess there's always my Sunfish, or my JetBoat or my Slowtoy, the Hobie14.(Yeech). At least I won't be a landlubber while I'm making up my mind.
I need to try out a F-16 and see.
CARY

Great response, Matt. I am looking forward to testing Jeff Woodard's Taipan. I would assume you've sailed both models.
I would assume there is a difference? Otherwise, you would have just bought a Taipan and gone with that.
What are the differences? Advantages/improvements/design changes in the Blade vs. the Taipan.
First Production Run, Hmmmm.
To me that means second production run is behind that!
I know you can't exactly do sales projections at this point. I know the world and resources are not unlimited, and business/production will be market driven, but are we looking at a Vectorworks committment to a larger production batch next time? It seems the interest in the Blade in our sailing community is high from my perspective.
Cary

I cant wait to get MY BLADE! Matt! where is it? Cary, I am sure you will love the F16, its only going to grow from now on. Sail solo or two up, now thats some serious versatility.

Matt, I am also interested in being part of that [cough cough]promo video [/cough cough]

The thought never even crossed my mind.

I'm quite honest in these things as I'm sure Zuhl can confirm. I think I said things pretty much along the same lines.

I think that Zuhl has gotten some good advice by you all.

-1- Test sail all boats especially the Blade F16

-2- If you are in the luxury of a dedicated crew for the next 2 to 3 years and wan to get into level racing => Go F18

-3- If you don't have such a dedicated crew then very seriously consider the F16's

-4- If you don't want to pull the car in the way you did with the I-20 than don't it. Pick the boat you feel suits you best now and enjoy sailing it. You can always switch later. Both F16's and F18's are hot on the market and don't remain in the classifieds for more than a few weeks. It has been like that for several years now.



My opinion is that I'll be much happy when Cary has chosen the design that suits him best wether that is F18 or F16. And it really doesn't matter if Cary choses F18 over F16. Simple because there are only two outcomes of such a situatio.

-1- It is the right boat for him and his crew and he'll never look back

-2- He will get fed up with looking for crews eventually and come back to the more versatile F16 concept at a later time.


Either way the best choice will reveal itself in time. My wager is that point -2- has a much higher chance of occurance. I know, I've done the F18 thing for a while and I loved it but finally threw in the towel after being stood up for a 3rd time by a crew I had trained for 8 months. Had paid regatta fee, driven the boat down and all and could not race because F18 is a doublehander only. That 3rd time I knew where my future lay. And I'm not the only one with a background like that in the class.

F16 ! What ever happens - you are sailing !


Wouter

That is actually not a bad point at all.

Hadn't thought of it like that.

I know that back in my pre-F16 days and even now I can pretty much hop on a F18 when I want to. There are always F18 skippers who are looking for capable crews. Always.

Simply for the reason that halve of the F18 skippers loose their dedicated crews some where down the line and than the blues begin.

Besides F16 sailing is certainly not bad training for crewing on a F18.

If you want to you can have the best of both worlds !

I really don't want to make you life more difficult then it needs to be Cary, but if you will be solo sailing frequently or even alot than I would seriously rethink getting a F18.

F18 is great when you have a dedicated crew of when you are garanteed to always have a crew some way or another. However I personally found that handling a F18 off the water solo seriously cuts down the enjoyment. Holding back while on the water took much of the enjoyment that was left.

Now I say don't do the trailblazer thing if you don't want to. There is no point . But when talking about sailing enjoyment when being forced to singlehand quite often than you really have only one choice. Really how many times do you sail in races and how many times do you sail recreationally. Are you really willing to take a hit on much more times of recreational sailing in favour of a few races ? You may not want to do the trailblazer thing, but maximizing enjoyment over all the times that you sail (most recreationally ?) is very important in itself.

Pardon me, but be careful not to chase down the utopia of F18's. Great racing with a everlasting capable and assured crew. Sure in this setup F18 is simply great, but when this setup is not garanteed in your personal situation than the situation will be very different. I'm talking from experience here. I sailed and race for 3 years with a very dedicated and good friend. Then he met a girl and moved away. Since then (4 years) I had crews on and off and only one did come close to the first time and only for one single season. I learned my lesson, times and priorities change and friends/crews come and go.

Now your situation may be different I don't know, but be careful. The thril of F18 racing is very dependent on having a dedicated crew that is willing to train with you often and is willing to do a significant number of racers. The latter often means planning ahead actively and work over family and girlfriends/Wife to go out to play.

Wouter

Well, I'll look forward to getting you out on the boat at TW...if not before.

From what you said re: year-round sailing and the safety factor, the F16 may be the right gig. I had a Nacra 5.5 that I sailed cat/sloop as well. Scared the Sh** out of myself on a cold day when I couldn't get it righted. That was the catalyst for the move to the Taipan. I weigh 190 now, but had no problems with righting it at 175.

Right now, we're using the J/24 as our primary boat. If either a) the local F18 guys let us race level with them or b) F16 picks up some speed in the GA/SC area, we'd probably move to primarily racing the cat. (I should ping Jake to get a read on whether or not the F18s would let us race level with them at smaller, local races.)

Anyway, I ramble.

Jeff.

Cary,

I have raced the Taipan, and loved the boat. Those events were what convinced me to explore the F16 class further. To answer you r question on the differences:

The main difference in boats (Taipan and Blade) are in the hull shape. (The new Taipans are offered in a true F16 configuration) Phill Brander spent considerable time in creating a hull shape that perfomed as well as the benchmark Taipan, but had had some more 'user friendly" attributes. The hull section is deeper providing more clearance from the surface especially handy in big chop. The hull shape moves the volume down very low. This makes the hull perform more similar to the wave piercing designs run succesfully by Flyer and some others, but more importantly, makes this hull shape much less sensitive to crew weight than a more traditional bottom shaped design. The 16 foot designs typically have disproportionately large transomes in order to fit the required hull volume in to a 5m platform. The feature I noticed most in comparing how the 2 boats sailed, is that the rocker / hull shape combination in the Blade made it much easier to run with clean separation of the water off the transom, and it seemed to be much less prone to pitching when powering up through the chop.

We have a lot more tuning to go to really find where this platform works best in what conditions, and hopefully a lot more head to head opotunities to test against the other F16 designs. But for my wife and myself, we are extreamly please with our first experiences on the Blade.

Matt

Don't you mean 160 lbs lighter ?

Wouter

Don't think you need to ping Jake, He's one of the two Seacats F-18's, along with David and I on the other. They would not mind us joining in, we just wouldn't be able to win the one-design class. We are pushing hard for the F-18's to sail our events this year.

Cary,
This may only apply to people with children but I thought I'd bring it up just in case.

If you are saiing an F16 with a self tacking jib and you set it up to centre sheet the mainsail. In the right conditions you have a great platform to introduce young kids to the sport.

When it is light they come out for the ride as there is no pressure on them because the jib will, to a large extent, take care of itself. (For now you just leave the kite on the beach.)

As they get more confidence you put them on the tiller and still drive the mainsail yourself . Easy to do when centre sheeted.

As their confidence increases further you throw on the kite. Still leave the youngster on the tiller.

Upwind you drive the maisail, Downwind you cleat it off and drive the kite.

I have 3 children and sailed with each of them from the age of 6. They were always much happier when steering.
Once they grab the tiller they develop a vested interest in the outcome which is far greater then they have as a crew.
A very good incentive for really close communication.
I had a deal with my yongest when we sailed together.
If it is was strong enough for two on the wire I steered the upwind legs and he crewed. He still steered the downwinds. Otherwise he did all the steering. There has been many a time up a work where we would change over as conditions changed. A hell of a lot of fun organising this while on the run.

Of course when it's blowing dogs off chains the youngster sits the race out and you sail uni rigged with the kite.

This is just another aspects to a highly versatile class and
not many people realise how much fun this can be.