Many years of multihull racing, including some years in the A-boats. Recent years in a 30 foot keelboat, PHRF racing. But, spouse-crew less enthusiastic than advertised... All draw me back to the heroin of a multihull especially with spinnaker, solo sailed. Any feedback on this boat appreciated!!! Am in North Carolina.

IIRC, the "Nacra 17" == "F-17" == "Inter 17"

I could be wrong. All of them are great boats.

Be prepared for Vouter to come in here and tell you to get a F16 *yawn*.

Whereabouts in NC are you?

I think promoting the F16 is probably part of the class chairman's job description . That said, I think Wouter has generally always been pretty even-handed in his remarks about the I17R, and indicated more than once that they are welcome to participate in F16 events on a first to finish basis.

Yeah Tad, don't be biased. Ha
Trey
I-20 314

Thank you Mark,

Also, I much rather have a new sailors sail both boats and decide against the F16's than have him buy another boat only to learn of the F16's after. The only thing I want is that new sailor knows about the F16's and before they buy. The rest is up to personal likes and the composition of local fleets.

In answering the question put forward by solowildman :

"What think of Nacra F-17 and standard 17???? "

Standard I-17 is either the sloop rigged Aus I-17 (lighter as well) or the EU I-17 that is a pure singlehander. Than you have the I-17R that is popular in USA with a much taller mast and much larger mainsail area and that is nearly exclusively sailed singlehanded although a jib kit is available for it. All have 17 sq.mtr. spis. The F17 is the US I-17 platform with the R-rig but with a larger spinnaker sail. The name suggests a Formula class setup but from what is available as class rules it appears to be a single manufacturer one-desig class with a F-name. In Europe The Texel rating system also recognizes the I-17XL (not the same as I-17R) and I-17 standard with jib (not the same as Aus I-17 as that one is lighter in overall weight.

I-17R/F17 seems to be popular around the great lakes. Sails fast in light airs but is rumoured to loose "some" when the winds increases. This also refers to the ease of sailing. At least that is what I was told by some I-17 Sailors. Also there is an ongoing debate on its overall weight hence the fact that it is not advertised. The US version should be lighter than the EU versions as measured by Texel though. But still heavier then the Aus versions.

In Asia several Aus I-17's (sloops + spi) race Taipan F16's. Great fun, but some bitching is going on about ratings. The F16's sailors seem very happy to go head to head with them, probably because they feel that they have an edge.

Anyways the Aus I-17 is about 125 kg ready to sail sloop + spi.
I seem to rememeber it had asome 13.9 sq. mtr. main a 4.25 mtr jib and a 17 sq. mtr. spi
The EU and US versions are heavier by at least 15 kg's, sometimes by 30 kg's depending on which source you believe.
Both the EU and Aus version use 8.5 mtr mast while the US version has a 9.1 mtr mast that is made of carbon fibre.
Mainsail area on the US version is 16.44 sq.mtr.
The I-17's are strong around the great lakes.

For comparison.
F16's are the same all over the world and it is a true formula rule set with 3 independent designs and builders
Mast = 8.5 mtr (both carbon and alu masts are allowed and used)
main = 15 sq.mtr.
jib = 3.65 sq. mtr. (when sailing doublehanded)
spi = 17.5 sq.mtr.
weight = 107 kg (ready to sail in sloop+spi setup)
F16 has is strongest in Florida and the states around it. A pocket is in California and several are around the Cheasapeak bay.

From direct racing between the standard 17's and F16's in Asia and Europe will sort of see that the F16's have a definate edge. The comparison between the US 17 versions and the F16's seems to be more comparable. In the latter case the F16 are rating slightly faster by systems like Texel and ISAF and the I-17R is rated slightly faster un USPN. Having said this I must add that USPN rates the F16's WITH spi at the same speed (compared to an F18) as the Australian portmouth yardstick rated the same boat WITHOUT a spi. USPN rated F16's significantly slower than any other rating systems in the world, both measurements based or statistical based. Personally, from comments that were given to me it seems that the US I-17R's are the fastest 17's and they are directly compare to F16's in overall speed. On that the systems seem to agree as all rated both boat very close to one another. Having said this all other systems rate the I-17's much closer to the F18 speeds than USPN.

I hope this helps. And I hope you will forgive me for writing the F16's into this.

My advice test sail boats of both classes and then decide.

Wouter

Vouter's promotion of the F16 class is like hearing a song on the radio over and over and over again. Its "overplayed." The song may have been really good the first time you heard it, but now its just old and trite.

If Solowildman had asked "What about this here F16 thinger?" then sure, I wouldn't have said what I did. But since he didn't, I knew what was going to happen and I just wanted to display my clarivoyant powers to everyone.

Solowildman, The I17 is a great singlehanded boat and has OD racing available not to far away from NC.

I think what you were trying to say is that the man is consistent.

And there is nothing wrong with that! People need to learn how to get over themselves.

Hello Solowildman, and all

You are correct, there is nothing like getting out and sailing by yourself.

I say, try and sail as many different solo unit you can,..pick the one you like. After all, it is going to be you, you and you sailing the boat. Only you know what 'turns you on'.

Can't miss on Wouter point of view though, he knows his stuff. I can testify to this. So, consider his input.

I have a 2000 I-17 Euro version ( aluminum mast), sail # 50, and sail in the Caribbean. My neck of the woods have big winds and big waves all the time. I believe that the hull shape of the I(F)-17 series has saved me many times from glorious 'wipe-outs' due to blasting thru waves at full throttle. To me, this is the extreme value of the I-17 series.

If you are not racing coastal or open ocean, then the I-17 hull shape advantage is minimized, in fact, that additional weight will hurt you in 'open class'.

To give you an idea, the first thing one install is foot straps for upwind legs. If you are not connected to the platform, the combination of speed and wave motion effectively separates you from your boat!

As for sail area, I have reduced my main to 150 sf, and I am a svelt 230 pounds dry , and with this configuration ( and about a 1 year tuning guide developement from Wouter and others), the 17 is approaching maximum upwind performance.

So, get what you like,..go sailing,..they are all excellant choices.

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix

So, since I have been out of multihulls for some years, let me ask a question. "What about this here F16 thinger?" Who are "the three manufacturers" and how do their products compare? I definitely like boats as light as possible for both solo setup and sailing, although the A Class is pricey, doesn't like wildman winds, and worst of all has no spinnaker. (For me being on a reach with a spinnaker is one of the funnest things of all in sailing.) Thanks much to all, so far, for all the detailed input!

Anyone who is UK based reading this and thinks......Well perhaps I might buy in I17. I have one for sale

A good starting point would be http://formula16.org/ .

And lots more info over on the F16 Forum .

To answer your question about manufacturers -

Australian High Performance Catamarans - Taipan F16
Stealth Marine (UK) - Stealth F16
VectorWorks Marine (US) - Blade F16

SoloWildman,

I purchased my I-17R at the beginning of the 2000 sailing season and raced it here in Michigan until last year, when I sold it. It is a terrific boat to sail, and, IMO, is the best that there is in single-handed spinnaker boats. I have not sailed the F-16 but have sailed against a Taipan w/ spinnaker and the BIM F-16 and prefer the NACRA. The main reason for this preference is that the NACRA steering system allows the skipper to dial in the steering so that it is possible to put down the tiller and deal with raising and lowering the spinnaker without significant change in direction. It is a controllable process. Other single-handed spinnaker boats might not demonstrate this characteristic. It is a problem with the Hobie FX-1 according to two people who have sailed them (I have not).

The F17 from NACRA is a single manufacturer one design boat that has incorporated some of the thinking that makes the IF18 Class so competitive, in particular, the allowance of a larger spinnaker for the heavier sailor and making lightweight sailors carry weight to get to the minimum weight. The stock F17 spinnaker is about 15 sq. meters, and the "big boy" spinnaker is near 17 sq. meters, according to my dealer. We have seen this development help the class in Michigan, and the class in the US has seemed to grow in conjunction with this change. There are some F17s sailing in Georgia and Florida, and right now, there are 21 F17s saying that they will be at the North American Championships in Traverse City, MI this coming September (a Great place for a regatta).

In the US, there is no market for the standard 17. Your investment dollars are better spent on the carbon mast F17/I-17R/N17R (all these are made by NACRA, but have undergone name changes since first introduced in 2000). Any changes being done to the latest F17 coming from NACRA can be retro-fitted to an older I-17R.

I switched to the A Class begause I always wanted one, not because the F17 wasn't fun! This year, I will get to see if I made the right decision.

While I am certainly not qualified to comment on the I17, having never seen one, I'm sure they are great boats and I've heard lots of praise for them. I would like to comment on SoloWildman's comment on the FX-1. I've had mine for about 1 1/2 years and have never had any trouble raising or lowering the chute. In fact, this boat has met all of my needs and I love sailing it solo or with crew and have a blast on the race course.

I've come to find out there are many boats for many people. For me, the FX-1 is a superb boat. The wave-piercing hulls are just that......wave peircers. They slow down not one iota in heavy wind and seas. I've had my wife and others on it and it still goes and goes. If I have one complaint, it is that is a little fast actually (I know, sacreligious). It's not the speed that gets me, it's blowing away the competition. I race in an area without an F18 to compare to and would love to meet up against one. There are a few N5.8s around, with spin, and they just don't match up. If I sell the boat, it will be to get something more competitive, having nothing to do with the performance of the boat itself. In that regards, again, I have no complaints.

Again, having not seen an I17/F17, I can't comment on it, not will I. I just wanted to disparage the rumor that the spin is difficult to raise/lower......something I have not encountered.

Good luck in your quest for the boat that is right for you!

Kip
FX-1

Kip, I sail an H17 with "Super Jib", and have only sailed the I17R without the chute. The cool thing about the Inter/Nacra is that you can drop the stick to pull up boards, or deal with the chute, and the boat will stay on course! How is the FX1 Helm? The disadvantage to the Nacra is that if you fall off your boat is gone!

I must say that I was never as challenged on the FX-one design as you I-17 guys seem to tell us. Alright I had to re-rake the FX-one mast and do some tuning at first but after that I could drop the tiller just the same and do stuff on board with two hands. Several times I dropped the tiller and moved down to the leeward daggerboard to raise it and move back.

There seems to be a rumour that the FX-one and other wave-piercers will self destruct as soon as you drop the tiller while the nacra tracks like a train. I think there may be some core of truth somewhere but it is now made out to be a huge difference and that it is certainly not. Also "the cool thing about the Inter/Nacra" is not exclusive to the Inter/nacra at all; scores of V- or U-shaped keelline designs have the same behaviour. It is actually quite common. And adjustable rudder setups are found on all other designs as well.

Now I'm sure that one boat tracks better then another but I don't think we are doing the real differences any justice here.

Ditto what Wouter said. A little tuning on the rig and it tracks great. I can drop the stick, go to leeward, deal with the spin or anything that gets tangled. It is not a problem. Again, as Wouter said, it takes a little tuning, and in the beginning, it was a problem, however, the problem is now solved.

The boat tracks great and tacks super quick. I've said it before and will say again that I honestly feel comfortable tacking on wind shifts when on the race course, something I haven't been doing since sailing cats. It really is a great boat for me. I'd love to see an I17 sometime and race against it or an F16 or F18 just to see how it stacks up.

Kip
FX-1

What makes the I17 stay straight is the fact it uses rubber (silicone?) "knuckles" between the tiller arms and the tiller connector and these connectors keep the boat straight until a certain force is applied. While I agree this is good for the times when you want the boat to "stay straight" (it really only stays fairly straight since whatever helm you have at the time will still be there- ie if you have weather helm the boat will slowly come to weather, etc.) the rest of the time it "numbs" the feeling of the boat (IMO).
One could certainly adapt this "system" to any of a number of other boats including any of the F16's or FX-1 (and I'm sure NACRA will sell you the parts!) In Europe the FX-1 sailors seem to have NO trouble raising/lowering the spis without this (I know, I sailed with/against them this past Summer).
I would ask where do you want to sail and who with?
The Hobie fleets and Isotope fleets were the big ones when I lived in NC (been ~8 years now) so I would check into the Isotope (which we let sail with us as F16's and they are light and made in NC) or FX-1. The Inter is a good boat but it's very heavy compared to an A cat but it's not fragile on the other hand.
Just some thoughts-

Kirt

I have sailed a lot of different cats but I must say that the rubber 'bung' system on the Nacra and Inter boats is the tightest most sensitive rudder system I've ever helmed. I disagree that it numbs the feel of the helm and coming from a Hobie 18, Nacra 5.2, and Nacra 6.0 to an Inter20 and a Nacra F18 I find the latter two extremely twitchy. While it does retain some return force at full extension, while near center it has practically none.

Somebody touched on it before but you'll find the biggest difference between a boat that tracks straight without a hand on the tiller and a boat that has a good bit of helm is rudder rake. Without getting into a disertation on boat design, the modern boats put a lot of weatherhelm into the design of the underwater foils. By countering this helm with the rudders, it puts the daggerboards at a very slight angle and loads them so they help provide additional lift to windward. However, this load has to be counteracted by the rudders. Now, enter the spinnaker where the underwater foils need to be adjusted to counter a significant change in the sail loading around the course and the rudders have to work even harder.

All this loading on the rudders is counteracted by having the center of lift of the rudders closely centered near the pivot point of the steering system. The closer these two are, the less helm you will experience. If you actually move the center of lift of the rudders forward of the pivot axis, you will experience lee helm (i.e. the boat wants to turn downwind when you release the tiller).

Any catamaran can be adjusted so that it tracks in a straight line when you put the tiller down. It is easy to improperly interpret this as meaning the rudders are not working as hard but in reality they are experiencing the same loads - you just don't feel it in the tiller. I think the Inter/Nacra components allow their rudders to be adjusted a little closer to the pivot axis of the steering system allowing for a more nuetral helm. I am able to tilt my rudders so far forward on my F18 that I get lee helm.

Don't know much about the Inters since we have hardly any on our beach...but I once checked w/Mark Biggers of the CatHouse, and he told me that the I-17 is rarely sold in the u.s., only the I-17R (Carbon Mast & Spi w/snuffer etc.). We have one of those on our beach but the guy is new at it and hardly ever soloes it, and then only in light winds. So, just for that reason the boat's always upright and doesn't seem to move very fast, LOL!

If I were the owner and didn't use it for racing, I'd put another tramp on it and use it as a 2-man boat.

It would be interesting to know if you could put another tramp line on this boat (putting the bungee cord thru the front cross bar) without screwing up the physics of the boat.

Has anyone tried this?