Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Formula 20 Discussion #4515
12/05/01 09:02 PM
12/05/01 09:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
Eric Anderson Offline OP
member
Eric Anderson  Offline OP
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
Formula 20 Discussion.
<br>
<br>First, just so everyone knows what my particular biases are, I sail a Nacra 6.0NA in the New England fleet. In fact I just bought a new 6.0. New England has a strong (~24 boats and growing) 1 design 6.0 fleet. We have decided to keep to just the main and jib for buoy’s racing and not split the fleet. We have agreed on a standard spinnaker for distance racing and non-points regatta racing. This chute is approximately 348 ft^2. 5 of us bought these chutes this year, there are another 4-5 that will purchase them for next season.
<br>
<br>Off and on there have been discussions about a formula 20 fleet for 3-4 years in the US. In the past they have gone nowhere. The major problem is that the configurations of the current 20 footers were too different. There are too many different ideas about what is the ideal configuration, minimum weight, sail area etc.
<br>
<br>Here are my thoughts.
<br>
<br>Objective. The Objective of the US F-20 class is to develop a class of 20-foot long 8.5ft wide, spinnaker equipped catamarans that have the same basic performance characteristics. The boats will be similar enough that the sole determinant of who wins a race is skill and luck. There will be a strict set of measurements for the boats. Any Manufacturer or individual can build a boat as long as it measures in. Sails, hulls, spars, etc can be purchased from anyone you want. At major events, boats must be measured for conformity. There should be a minimum boat weight that is achievable with the designs at hand. The class should be affordable to purchase.
<br>
<br>
<br>How to reach the objective
<br> First, aim the formula 20 at new style boats specifically built for the F-20. Don’t bother trying to recruit Tornado’s, Nacra 6.0’s Hobie 20’s and P 19’s, Etc. By the time you reconfigure those boats to be competitive in F 20, you might as well just get an I20 or a Fox. As an example, a Nacra 6.0 would need a new Mainsail, Jib, Spinnaker, rigging and possibly a mast to be truly competitive.
<br>
<br>Right now you have 2 boats that are designed to the same basic formula in the US. The Inter 20 and the Hobie Fox. Someone who purchased one of these boats is likely to want to sail at their Nationals as well as in a Formula Class. Requiring modifications to either boat that would make 2 complete sail plans necessary will probably not be acceptable to most people. Neither would having greatly different minimum crew weights for class and Formula racing. Racers need the same basic configuration for class and formula racing.
<br>
<br>Ultimately formula racing will only work if there are 3-5 manufacturers of F-20 boats in competition. I would suggest the class lobby hard Mystere, Supercat, Dart, etc to build boats to the formula.
<br>
<br>So what is this magical formula? I would go for:
<br>
<br>Boat Weight min 410 lbs
<br>Min Crew Weight 330 lbs. Crews less then 330 carry ½ the difference in lead. No team can carry more then 25 lbs corrector weight
<br>Length 20.0 feet max
<br>Width 8.5 feet max
<br>Mast Height 32ft max
<br>Strict sail area measurements that correspond to the present I-20 sail plan. (Max) sails can be smaller.
<br>Some materials control for sailcloth (no carbon sailcloth).
<br>Limit class members to a maximum of 3 new sails per year. Restrict the use of carbon to spars, foils and local reinforcing.
<br>All trapeze and standing rigging will 1/19 or dyform steel rigging.
<br>Inexpensive measurement certificate for sails and hulls/etc.
<br>For exact verbiage I would use the European f-20 rules as a guide.
<br>
<br>
<br>As far as grand fathering boats, I would allow the Nacra 6.0NA, Hobie 20, P19mx and Mystere 6.0 (not XL) with the addition of a 270 ft^2 chute to race for 3 years. Waive the min boat weights for those boats, but use the same min crew weight formula. If they use non-class legal sails they need to measure in under the formula 20 rules. After 4 years they need to measure in or they can’t race in F20 anymore.
<br>
<br>
<br>Will this work? Who Knows. Would I sail under this formula? If I percieved it to be fair I might. Good Luck
<br>
<br>Sail Fast, Take Chances
<br>Eric<br><br>

--Advertisement--
Re: Formula 20 Discussion [Re: Eric Anderson] #4516
12/06/01 07:51 AM
12/06/01 07:51 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Eric
<br> I can understand the intent of the post in wanting to protect the local fleet of 6/0s that has been built up, -Follow the Yellow 6/0 --sounds like fun. -
<br>-The Formula 20 class is not being formed with the intent of trying to split up any one design fleet , but is attempting to provide a comprehensive set of 20 class rules to allow all to sail and compete in a spirit of good will together,
<br>
<br> Sailing a 6/0 at min wt. with a 348 sq ft shute may not be the answer for everyone , -
<br> There is an excellent quality of character in the desire to protect a local fleet , or a rating system you believe works , it is the method and sometimes the over reacting to the realities and actual goals ATTEMPTING to be achieved that should really be understood , based in fact , and what these goals really are.
<br>
<br> The goal of the FORMULA 20 class is to provide fair equal sailing for all 8.5 B - 20 ft Cats.
<br>
<br>-You have said basically the goal or objective should be to have a formula specific group of boats that maybe some will mfg or build. Then presume to lay out some rules based on this false notion for a class you have no intent to sail ,-your quote [-Will this work? Who Knows. Would I sail under this formula? If I percieved it to be fair I might. }
<br>-It seems you and Mark have dropped in on the FORMULA 20 Class forum with the same misguided intent based on a notion that boats not in a specific fleet , as you have , should just race Porthmouth , -this isn.t working -it has not encouragaged growth or partisipation in the sport.
<br>
<br> I raced the 6/0 for 2 seasons , and did 2 Worrell 1000 s on em , it,s a big straight line speed machine type of cat design , great fun , but a huge amount of work with that huge shute set on a pole.
<br>
<br>-The intent of the Sail Ar to Wt Formula is to allow all 20 ft boats to race equally ,--One start first to finish wins , most all racers prefer this .
<br>-The 6/0 in its NA configuration is within 5 to 10 sq ft of equal sail area in main and jib to proposed Formula rules , It is very competitive with the Inter 20 which is the class base model.
<br> You may not agree with weight equalization , particularly if you exploit the min class weight , but weight does effect performance , that is fact.
<br> The spin size for the 6/o in Formula would be in the 300 range ,-330 with larger crew, pending final performance rating per designers.
<br> With the heavier masts ,believe Formula could accomodate the 6/0 s as they are , -The vision for the class is very much of a race what ya got ,just get out and race and have fun attitude . -Hooters will be allowed in place of a spin for those that don,t want to race with a shute . -It is your choice to set up a 20 footer the way you like and race it in a lerge fleet.
<br> If you want one design it can easily be maintained inside F-20 -if you want a variation for min wt on your local Wed. evening races go ahead , but don't be surprized if racing sailors start asking why .
<br>
<br>-The 6/0 is an excelent design that can compete with any if it is well sailed . Some like being a big fish on a small pond , but most fortunately have the attitude of the more the merrier.
<br>
<br>-Hope those in your area will consider the merits of Formula and join in to improve the concept and rules of fair equal sailing for all 20 ft designs.
<br>
<br> Happy Holidays
<br> Carl<br><br>

Attached Files
4542- (136 downloads)
Re: Formula 20 Discussion [Re: sail6000] #4517
12/06/01 08:58 PM
12/06/01 08:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
Eric Anderson Offline OP
member
Eric Anderson  Offline OP
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
Carl,
<br>I think you are missing the main points of my argument. I will state them as clearly as possible.
<br>
<br>CR“””I can understand the intent of the post in wanting to protect the local fleet of 6/0s that has been built up, -Follow the Yellow 6/0 --sounds like fun. -
<br>-The Formula 20 class is not being formed with the intent of trying to split up any one design fleet , but is attempting to provide a comprehensive set of 20 class rules to allow all to sail and compete in a spirit of good will together,
<br>Sailing a 6/0 at min wt. with a 348 sq ft shute may not be the answer for everyone , -
<br>There is an excellent quality of character in the desire to protect a local fleet , or a rating system you believe works , it is the method and sometimes the over reacting to the realities and actual goals ATTEMPTING to be achieved that should really be understood , based in fact , and what these goals really are. “”
<br>
<br>EA First, I make no secrets of my own personal bias. I am pro one design, I am also pro formula if I perceive it to be fair. If I lived in Europe I would race a F18, probably a Hunter, Diam, Cirrus or a Hobie Tiger. I perceive F-18 racing to be fair enough that the best sailor usually wins. I don’t think any of the 8-9 F-18 boat types produced has breakthrough speed. This is an example of a very successful formula class. I would not however buy a Hobie 18, modify it so that it measures in under F-18 and race. That would not make sense. I would not perceive a formula that allowed radically different crew weights, boat weights, sail areas, to be fair. That is what many are advocating here.
<br>
<br>
<br>CR”””The goal of the FORMULA 20 class is to provide fair equal sailing for all 8.5 B - 20 ft Cats. “””
<br>
<br>EA MY own personal opinion is that the hull shapes, weights, and technology of all the 20 foot boats are way too different to be equalized by simply adjusting sail areas and minimum weights. IF you were talking about a single windspeed and level of chop it may be possible, but not over a wide range of conditions. In my mind, you have created a system no better then the Portsmouth, or Texel Rating you are trying to replace. I would not perceive this to be fair and would not participate.
<br>
<br>CR “”””-You have said basically the goal or objective should be to have a formula specific group of boats that maybe some will mfg or build. Then presume to lay out some rules based on this false notion for a class you have no intent to sail ,-your quote [-Will this work? Who Knows. Would I sail under this formula? If I percieved it to be fair I might. }
<br>-It seems you and Mark have dropped in on the FORMULA 20 Class forum with the same misguided intent based on a notion that boats not in a specific fleet , as you have , should just race Porthmouth , -this isn.t working -it has not encouragaged growth or partisipation in the sport. “”””
<br>
<br>
<br>EA Carl, first I would appreciate it if you turned down the rhetoric a notch. Please don’t take it personally that some people actually have different opinions then yourself. Statements such as: “” Then presume to lay out some rules based on this false notion for a class you have no intent to sail”, and “-It seems you and Mark have dropped in on the FORMULA 20 Class forum with the same misguided intent based…” Let me restate the point that I made. For a Formula 20 class to be successful, it needs to look towards the future. For the racing to be truly FAIR not all 20-foot boats can play in the sandbox at the same time. If you want to grandfather some of the 20 footers in for a specific period of time to get the class rolling, I would have no objection.
<br>
<br>
<br>CR “”I raced the 6/0 for 2 seasons , and did 2 Worrell 1000 s on em , it,s a big straight line speed machine type of cat design , great fun , but a huge amount of work with that huge shute set on a pole. -The intent of the Sail Ar to Wt Formula is to allow all 20 ft boats to race equally ,--One start first to finish wins , most all racers prefer this .
<br>
<br>-The 6/0 in its NA configuration is within 5 to 10 sq ft of equal sail area in main and jib to proposed Formula rules , It is very competitive with the Inter 20 which is the class base model.
<br>You may not agree with weight equalization , particularly if you exploit the min class weight , but weight does effect performance , that is fact.
<br>The spin size for the 6/o in Formula would be in the 300 range ,-330 with larger crew, pending final performance rating per designers.
<br>With the heavier masts ,believe Formula could accomodate the 6/0 s as they are , -The vision for the class is very much of a race what ya got ,just get out and race and have fun attitude . -Hooters will be allowed in place of a spin for those that don,t want to race with a shute . -It is your choice to set up a 20 footer the way you like and race it in a lerge fleet. If you want one design it can easily be maintained inside F-20 -if you want a variation for min wt on your local Wed. evening races go ahead , but don't be surprized if racing sailors start asking why .
<br>-The 6/0 is an excelent design that can compete with any if it is well sailed . Some like being a big fish on a small pond , but most fortunately have the attitude of the more the merrier. -Hope those in your area will consider the merits of Formula and join in to improve the concept and rules of fair equal sailing for all 20 ft designs. “””
<br>
<br>
<br>EA Here are the main points of my argument. This should be clear enough for every one to understand.
<br>
<br>Point #1 No amount of jockeying with sail area/weight will equalize the performance of 20 foot cats as diverse as the Dart 20, Nacra 6.0NA, CFR20,Inter 20 etc over a wide range of wind speeds. This is not to say that you could not make them all rate the same under Texel, or under the ISAF system. You can accomplish this if desired. This would be the equivalent of a level rating band in PHRF. This is not what I envision a true formula class to be.
<br>
<br>Point# 2 With Point #1 in mind, the only 2 20ft boats currently made that are similar enough to potentially race together FAIRLY are the Inter 20 and Hobie FOX. Only having 2 Boat types do not make a good Formula Class.
<br>
<br>Point #3 With Point #1,2 in mind, a formula class should do 2 things;
<br>
<br>A. Grandfather in some existing 20 ft cats for a limited time. The aim of this would be low cost modifications to the existing sail plan and the addition of a chute
<br>B. Lobby Manufacturers to produce boats that conform to the rules of the class such that there are 3-5 possible boat types in the class. This allows choice. Make the rules tight enough that the boats are the same speed in all conditions.
<br>
<br>Point #4 People who race in a formula Class are likely to want to also race at the Nationals of their respective boat manufacturers. To be competitive they need to train in the configuration they are going to sail in at nationals. This configuration includes sails and crew/boat weights.
<br>
<br>Point #5 Most of the 20 footers today-Hobie Fox, Inter 20, etc have min weights of 325 or lower. Setting a min weight of 350 will discourage crews that are borderline lightweight for the lower weight limit. In general this will eliminate lighter husband and wife teams that are now racing Hobie 20’s, Nacra 6.0’s etc. (As a side note: My present crew and I would not be carrying weight sailing at 350lb min.)
<br>
<br>Point #6 A large fraction of the 20-foot catamaran market are sailors with female crew. Building a formula based on just guys ignores a lot of potential market. I would note that an athletic female is more then capable of skippering or crewing on a 20-foot spinnaker equipped cat. Examples in my area include: Joe and Jen Hameway wnining the 97 Hobie 21 Continentals. Nora Zelmer at 110 lbs crewing on an Inter 20(div 12 champ). Sara Hibard, longtime Hobie 21 skipper with her husband Mark crewing. In Div 12, 2/3 of the Nacra 6.0’s have female crews. Most of these boats distance race with spinnakers ranging from 348-440 ft.
<br>
<br>Eric
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>

Re: Formula 20 Discussion [Re: Eric Anderson] #4518
12/07/01 07:29 AM
12/07/01 07:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 39
Ontario, Canada
Alan Maguire Offline
newbie
Alan Maguire  Offline
newbie

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 39
Ontario, Canada
Just to back up one of Eric's points:
<br>
<br>Most (85%) of the 20 footers in my area are male/female crew combinations as well. I would estimate that those boats race between 295 and 320 lbs.
<br>
<br>And there are only a couple of male only teams.<br><br>Keep at least one hull in the air !!!
<br>Alan Maguire

Attached Files
4573- (124 downloads)

Keep at least one hull in the air !!! Alan Maguire
Re: -existing conditions [Re: Eric Anderson] #4519
12/07/01 07:38 AM
12/07/01 07:38 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi eric
<br> Many people confuse the existing state or conditions that have lead to the declining partisipation of the sport ,--this is an existing condition ,--not one we created of deadboat mfg classes of varying existing weights , even greatly within a supposed mfg one design ,-
<br> The class objective is to remedy this situation and establish design parameters future catamaran design can easily be created within, and existing cats may modify to ,for 20 F class RACING.
<br>
<br> You have predicated your whole position and arguements on a false assumtion =
<br>
<br>eric quote=
<br>EA MY own personal opinion is that the hull shapes, weights, and technology of all the 20 foot boats are way too different to be equalized by adjusting sail areas and minimum weights. IF you were talking about a single windspeed and level of chop it may be possible, but not over a wide range of conditions. In my mind, you have created a system no better then the Portsmouth--etc
<br>-end quote eric -
<br>
<br> -We can not control design good or bad ,-Eric this is YOUR choice , the design and builder you think best .
<br> We can not control wind speed or chop , this is racing .
<br>
<br> We are establishing a basic box design parameter that all designs can easily be modified to and created within.
<br>
<br>-The other part of your position that mfg.one design is better , -
<br> Again ,-the answer for everyone may not be sailing a Nacra 6/0 at min weight with a 348 sq ft shute as you advocate.
<br> This is a distinct possibility, not everyone will want to play the mfg, one design game of newer lighter weight boats with better sails each 2 years , and sailing at min weight against other teams 60 or more pounds heavier in predominantly light wind conditions and calling it equal racing . manufacturers one design has created boats all over the weight scale even within the same class ,as you know , and has created numerous dead boat classes .
<br>
<br> Nor will Formula be for everyone , but it does address weight , a basic performance measurement effecting cat speed . Equalizing weight and sail area is used to some extent in every Formula class , Is it your contention they they are all wrong .
<br>
<br> On spin sizes , it is unfortunate that this size of 348 sq ft for the 6/0 was chosen by a few , The 270 sq ft spin are powerfull , much more versital for close reaching and in variable wind speeds , much easier to keep in the groove speed wise , and can easily be snuffed in that readily available c f snuffer system .
<br> It appears and heard others opinion that this was chosen by a few in an attempt to make the 6/0 faster than the new Inters in the area. -This is an unfortunate decision and direction which will deter 6/0 racing sailors from ever using a spin and snuffer for bouys racing , which is great fun , You are missing a wonderfull aspect of sailing and racing that most all other sailing craft share,----caused by a few .
<br> Would encourage rethinking this sq ft size , then encouraging 6/0 racing sailors to adopt spin w snuffers ,
<br> As they sail and race the Inter -Tornado , or Formula cats with spin and snuffers they will steadily leave the 6/0 without.
<br>
<br>-Stongly believe that racing sailors would like the choice of boat and be able to race it in Formula . not P
<br>
<br> The basis of these proposed rules will be put in place for use , it may take several years for acceptance ,but believe racing sailors will see the fairness and value of the ideals set forth .
<br>
<br> The intent past and present has always been the best , to help develop a better system for a sport I really enjoy and love participating in .
<br>
<br>regards
<br> Carl
<br>
<br> <br><br>

Attached Files
4574- (129 downloads)
Re: Formula 20 Discussion [Re: Alan Maguire] #4520
12/07/01 07:55 AM
12/07/01 07:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Alan
<br> Thanks good info.
<br>
<br> If you review the Weight to Sail Area Formula post you find we have proposed weight catagories in 30 LB total increments of total boat and crew weight -This was close enough on these large powerfull cats to be fair , and far enough apart to be kept to 3 main total boat and crew weight catagories.
<br>
<br> If you proceed to the Inter example below it you find the boat weight Inter 390 --and catagory boat weight 380 ,--and an av crew weight of 330 , if you do the basic math you find a 320 crew wt is required for catagory , crews may add weight to catagory , -this 30 LB max. differential is fair , crews may adjust up or down catagory as they choose. -
<br>
<br> Should one team weigh more than 60 Lbs more than another in the av 8 mph windspeeds we race in per mfg.one design and call this equal fair sailing.
<br> only if you all weight min 285 or less to 315 or so. <br><br>

Re: Formula 20 Discussion [Re: sail6000] #4521
12/07/01 10:08 AM
12/07/01 10:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
old hand
Mike Hill  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Carl said:
<br>-It seems you and Mark have dropped in on the FORMULA 20 Class forum with the same misguided intent based on a notion that boats not in a specific fleet , as you have , should just race Porthmouth , -this isn.t working -it has not encouragaged growth or partisipation in the sport.
<br>-The 6/0 is an excelent design that can compete with any if it is well sailed . Some like being a big fish on a small pond , but most fortunately have the attitude of the more the merrier.
<br>
<br>MH: Carl, what's with attacking people with a different viewpoint from your own. Eric stated his biases well up front and then gave his vision of what he thought would work. Mark and Eric have stated their opinions well and thoughtfully. Don't attack them as if they had some hidden adgenda. We all have our adgenda's and if we don't look past them and into what is good for the class we won't get anywhere.
<br>
<br>Mike Hill
<br>H20 #791
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>

Attached Files
4578- (130 downloads)

Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Formula 20 Discussion [Re: Eric Anderson] #4522
12/07/01 12:12 PM
12/07/01 12:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 196
San Diego, CA
whitecaps Offline
member
whitecaps  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 196
San Diego, CA
Eric - I think you have made some very good points which we should all heed in our discussions. Especially:
<br>
<br>1. The class must be perceived to be fair or it will be ignored. Note that I said perceived to be fair, trying to emphasize that a complex set of weights/SA's which might rate equally still won't be perceived as fair or equal. We already know that 2 boats which rate equally under Portsmouth/PHRF/Texel/IOR (take your pick) perform much differently under different combinations of wind strength, chop, and course selection. The winners of races using existing rating systems are already recognized as "the boat which got it's weather conditions" - we don't want to simply re-create a new version of this same problem with F20. If we create a complicated system of weights/SA's, we really end up with just another rating rule, not what most think of as a Formula class. It will not be fair/equal racing, it won't be perceived as fail/equal racing, and it will be ignored in favor of exising OD classes.
<br>
<br>2. I can see that higher min weights (350) might discourage couples racing. In my mind the difference between 325 and 350 is not a big issue, and I would consider the 325 limit if it would promote inclusiveness. Brandon/James of San Diego race the I20 near 400 lbs and kick butt, so it appears (at least to my inexperienced eyes) that weight is not a killer handicap if you have enough SA for the heavier teams to use.
<br>3. I agree that modified boats P19mx/H20/N6.0 with spin and maybe larger sails might not be optimal F20 boats, but I think they would be very close for most races. Anyone who added a spin to one of these boats would have a great time sailing it, and being in the same ballpark as an I20/Fox would allow for a lot of racing to occur.
<br>
<br>4. As Eric and others have said, I would like to emphasize that we need to WORK TOGETHER on the CORE ideas of the F20 class. If we all splinter off in different directions persuing the ultimate equality with many special cases, we won't get anywhere and progress will stop.
<br>
<br>Sail fast and have fun,
<br>Alan Thompson<br><br>

Attached Files
4582- (118 downloads)
Re: example - [Re: whitecaps] #4523
12/07/01 12:58 PM
12/07/01 12:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Allan
<br>
<br> The other Allan - Alan M SAILS a Mystere 6/0 its weight is approx 435 , he sails with a crew weight of 300 for a total of 735 Lbs -
<br> If you look at the 3 catagories of weight you find your total weight and sail area , if you are over your o k , if under add weight just as you would to a mfg class min.
<br>
<br>The other option per proposed class rules ,-
<br> Alan has desided to get new lighter rudders and refinish the boat to weigh in the catagory 2 range with his lighter crew weight factored in , and the same sail areas as the Inter model -270 spin -208 main -53 jib -
<br>
<br> IS THIS COMPLEX , ?
<br>
<br> Alan , please state the type of cat you race and lets walk through the catagory and options for your sailing team ,
<br>
<br> What do you weight and which cat do you race ,-
<br> thanks , -<br><br>

Attached Files
4585- (123 downloads)
Perception of fairness [Re: sail6000] #4524
12/07/01 01:02 PM
12/07/01 01:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Eric
<br>Could you clarify your point of view .
<br>EA wrote
<br>Point #1 No amount of jockeying with sail area/weight will equalize the performance of 20 foot cats as diverse as the Dart 20, Nacra 6.0NA, CFR20,Inter 20 etc over a wide range of wind speeds. This is not to say that you could not make them all rate the same under Texel, or under the ISAF system. You can accomplish this if desired. This would be the equivalent of a level rating band in PHRF. This is not what I envision a true formula class to be.
<br>
<br>MS
<br>I don't get your technical argument here.
<br>
<br>How is the F18 situation different?
<br>
<br>Why is Nacra producing an F18 if their I18 was optimal... Hmm perhaps chop effects the I18 a bit more then the hull volume of I18 helps it. (or so the market believes... ergo Performance needs a new boat)
<br>
<br>In thinking about this it seems to me your argument is really a Show Me argument. the F18's have proven over a period of 6 or so years that the boats are even on the water AND the weight correction system works well. (At least that is what we hear over here). The fact that they all measure into the formula is nice but not critical. You are persuaded by proof on the water that the racing is tight enough to be called fair. Note though that the Dart Hawk dropped out of the running in F18 because it could not keep up.
<br>
<br>What we are really talking about is how much prescion in different boat performance do we need to call the racing “fair” and most importantly have the racers think that its fair.
<br>
<br>You may be right here.... Only experience on the water will give sailors the sense of fairness.
<br>The Mystere 6.0 and Nacra 6.0 rated the same in Texel and both were faster then the Classic Tornado. Reality is... Nacra was faster in light air and T was faster in breeze and the mystere never quite measured up..... Thus the portsmouth ratings. In this example, the formula is NO Comfort if you don’t feel that you have a chance. against someone who is about equal in sailing ability on a different boat.
<br>
<br>I had not really considered this as such a critical factor in getting a formula 20 class going If you can’t SHOW that foxes and Inter 2o’s and Mysterer X/s are really close in performance you may never get people to buy into the f20 mindset. Hmmm. Texel and the French cat championships seem to indicate that Tornado's, Foxes, and euro I20's are very close of course the Foxes and euro I20's already measure into the euro f20 rule.
<br>
<br>Is there any possible way that we could adopt the euro f20 rule and maintain a coherent rule AND have a huge euro database of lots of boats proving that the designs are fair on the water?
<br>
<br>Take Care
<br>Mark
<br>
<br>ps
<br>This should be a word of caution to the F18 versus F18 HT split... The proven fact is that the F18 formula has a number of choices which are very close on the water. EG Fair.
<br>
<br>The F18 HT may be a wonderful class idea... BUT... it remains to be shown on the water that the boats from different builders are really equal. You will have a lot of very small one design classes or a portmouth one off!<br><br>

Attached Files
4586- (127 downloads)

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Formula 20 Discussion [Re: Mike Hill] #4525
12/07/01 01:10 PM
12/07/01 01:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Mike -
<br> It 's funny ,after your comment posted under Formula 20 rules ,
<br> A small mouse ran across my office floor then behind the file cabinet , --I,m still laughing , the timing was perfect .
<br>
<br> We all make comments that can be easily construed to one extreme or the other dependant upon the readers mood .
<br>
<br> Happy Holidays Mike
<br>thanks Carl
<br>
<br> <br><br>

Attached Files
4587- (111 downloads)
Re: Perception of fairness [Re: Mark Schneider] #4526
12/07/01 02:08 PM
12/07/01 02:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi
<br> Boat choice is up to the individual , -it is not a predetermined designation as you suggest . Race the boat of your choice equally with other 20 ft designs ,
<br> Is manufacturers one design better on all the same boat , perhaps but not all want a T or Nacra , and it is not fair when one team has min.285 crew and another has 350 .
<br>
<br> All Formula classes are developemental to some extent ,--all have variation in hull design , etc. and all use sail area to adjust for weight to some extent .
<br> The arguements presented suggest or attempt to redefine then misdirect for two paragraphs on the incorrect redefinition.
<br>
<br> The larger picture people who have a mission of keeping Porthmouth in place are missing , beyond often confusing facts , and retaining this perspective of racing only from an averaged time system beyond the inherant flaw of rating human performance as opposed to REAL POTENTIAL BOAT PERFORMANCE based on proven design principles and formula is this . --
<br>
<br> We need a TOTAL complete system of design measurement and formula racing . Please look at the wonderfull development achieved through development racing classes like the A CLASS . Fantasic economical ligtweight design , beautifull fast seaworthy catamarans , Look at how improved and advanced the designs are already becomming in Formula .
<br> We need to adopt ISAF or Texel like the rest of the catsailing world , allowing a universal form of design measurement and understanding that follows of what makes an excellent fast safe seaworthy design . We need to change and avoid the continueing decline of partisipation in the sport by growing elolving taking new direction and applying new concepts .
<br>
<br> This apparently shocks some entrenched on their mission to keep all the same no matter what by all means available .
<br> What is there to loose here , Hobie racing , formula would be the best thing for Hobie cat Co. Porthmouth ,-no one likes racing it except a very few who benifit by exploiting rules loopholes and gaps.
<br>
<br> The sport is already changing growing and evolving away from mfg one design on it.s own , lead follow or get out of the way , as Lee says .
<br>
<br> regards
<br> Carl
<br> <br><br>

Attached Files
4589- (122 downloads)
Re: Perception of fairness [Re: sail6000] #4527
12/07/01 03:38 PM
12/07/01 03:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Interesting how some kind of attack on folks who do not agree %100 keeps creeping in.
<br>
<br>"This apparently shocks some entrenched on their mission to keep all the same no matter what by all means available . What is there to loose here , Hobie racing , formula would be the best thing for Hobie cat Co. Porthmouth ,-no one likes racing it except a very few who benifit by exploiting rules loopholes and gaps."
<br>
<br>To get this thing off the ground, start simple. Just adopt the EU rules with some minor tweaks. Adjust the rules as the years go by to contain whatever the class membership deems necessary to contain.
<br>
<br>The utopian vision that all cats designed and built to this or any other rule will magically perform exactly the same just isn't going to happen unless you really tightly constrain a lot of design elements. I think you will find that some design or designs will bubble to the top, some will fall by the wayside. You can look anywhere in the sailboat racing world and see this. You can look at automobile racing and see this. If a manufacturer cares they will put out a new design that might be better. If people care enough to want to win they will have to buy that boat. Hopefully more than one competitive design will continue to exist, otherwise it will end up one-design anyway (Tornado). How will people feel if one year they bought the hot deal, then the next year a new hot deal comes out. Won't happen? If it does often enough this may not stay a popular concept for long with the general sailing public. But this is the nature of forumal racing, with both its good and not so good sides.
<br>
<br>I'm not saying this to bad mouth the concept, I think formula-style racing has a lot of promise, especially for those that want to tinker with their boats (who doesn't?). But, I also believe that these are some realities to face. I personally want to see it succeed, for some reasons you mention as well as others. Some day I'd like to join in.
<br>
<br>So, stop bad mouthing folks who'd like to find a way to support what they do that also maybe would like to find a way to do both. You want them to join in? Show them how, don't insult them. That will lead to the very "decline of partisipation in the sport" that you seek to avoid. If there's a way to include these boats and or sailors, great. If not, don't tell them they're bad people because they don't choose to play with you today. They may never with that attitude. Swallow some words, they may join the circus later when they see how cool it is. Then it's your job to make it cool.
<br>
<br>For the record, I race Portsmouth. And I'm actively trying to build up a Fleet that currently features Portsmouth racing. And I see that it is a great way to get people on the water and into a sport they wouldn't participate in otherwise. It would be great if we all sat down one day and decided to all go out and buy boats that fit a particular class or formula. And then tell anybody who wanted to join in they had to buy the same. This can work in some places, I suspect. But I'd hate to turn anybody away that showed with an AquaCat that wanted to find out about the sport. So I'll fight to have something like this available. Absolutely fair racing? Maybe not. Problematic? Yep. To turn your words a bit, maybe the only ones I found that really hate Portsmouth are the ones that can't win a Portsmouth race, or don't even like loosing the occasional one.
<br>
<br>I guess that makes me a wanna-be-a-big-fish-in-a-small-pond-loophole-and-gap-exploiter. So be it. But, I also believe that out of the small ponds come some big fish that then go on to the bigger pond. Without the small ponds an important grass-roots support for the sport goes away. Look at the sailing world. A lot of sailors invariably hail from a yacht club somewhere. That club probably has beer-can races in rag-tag Fleets of handicap racing classes and one-designs. From that group comes some who participate at the high level. If someone in our Fleet shows up one day with a Formula-20 boat, they'll be welcome to race each week in Portsmouth and tune their skills, and then go out and join in with the rest of F20s on the big event days.
<br>
<br>In the monohull world, you have one-design, measurement formula, and handicap racing. All are well supported. Some provide excellent stepping-stones to the others. Nobody claims one has to eliminate the other in order to exist.
<br>
<br>Anyway, perhaps I'm ranting, and I apologize. It would be nice to see this develop without some of the attitudes.
<br>
<br>Rant mode off.<br><br>Keith, Annapolis
<br>H-18, Northstar 500
<br>WRCRA

Re: Perception of fairness [Re: Keith] #4528
12/07/01 04:18 PM
12/07/01 04:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 39
Ontario, Canada
Alan Maguire Offline
newbie
Alan Maguire  Offline
newbie

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 39
Ontario, Canada
I think that I also have to on record as being a big supporter of Portsmouth racing. Although I have also spent halfl my 15 year sailing career racing one-designs, I am enthusiastic about the new developements in both F18 and F20. I feel that I am fortunate to both see and enjoy the strengths in all these types of racing. I think I coined the phrase that "open class is not 2nd class racing",,, and I don't think that its existance has contributed to any perceived decline in catamaran sailing. Quite the opposite in fact,,, it has allowed us to rebuild a robust local sailing scene. And there is always lots of one-design, in one variety or another available for those who want to make the effort.
<br>
<br>I fully expect that the F20's will initially compete locally against all the other X-boats and that USSA will set an F20 portsmouth rating. That only makes sense until the F20's are ready to stand on thier own two feet as a class.
<br>
<br>And I look forward to that day,,, as I am sure you all do too.
<br>
<br>Season's greetings,,, and remember to ---<br><br>Keep at least one hull in the air !!!
<br>Alan Maguire

Attached Files
4594- (125 downloads)

Keep at least one hull in the air !!! Alan Maguire
Re: Perception of fairness [Re: Keith] #4529
12/07/01 04:39 PM
12/07/01 04:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Thanks Keith ,
<br> appreciate the thoughts ,
<br>
<br> Hope your able to build up a local fleet , some have also suggested a personal handicap number for sailors , just as you recieve a handicap in golf and other sports . This may be the best for beginners and local club sailing . What better way to encourage new sailors than handing them a trophy for improving the most .
<br> Hope to start a junior sailing program with my kids this next season , though it may start with basic sailing for kids on the lake then progress , Would use a personal handicap system.
<br>
<br> -This proposed system is different but very simple and fair , and will not please everyone ,.
<br> .
<br> You choose your boat ,and your crew weight and race accordingly .
<br> People seem to presuppose their arguement on the existing conditions of varied designs and weights involved , They need to realize this is THEIR CHOICE if they do not like it then at least their is the opportunity for modification , Do not attempt to blame others for YOUR CHOICE of boat , it will have the same length beam and sail area to weight ratio to theoretically perform very similarly to any other equal length beam design . The existing variations of boats sail areas and weights all over the board is not one we created , we are attempting to remedy this situation.
<br> Will different boats have an advantage in various different wind conditions and wave combinations , yes all boats and crews do , some will excell in light air and some in heavy air ,-some in waves ,and some in flat water , Will one boat win in all conditions , not very likely in this diverse class,
<br> Older heavier cats with larger sail areas should have the atvantage in light air ,having more sail area to wetted surface , newer lighter boats with smaller sailplans should have the advantage as the wind increases , But --roller furling jibs are allowed , and reef points , believe this is better seamanship . New designs will have to find ways to make smaller sailplans more efficient in light air.
<br> Ideally designers creating new designs would target the best all around most versital design possible within this range .
<br> Can you tell us what your boat is and what your crew weight is , will run it through. THANKS
<br> -Happy Holidays <br><br>

Re: Perception of fairness [Re: Mark Schneider] #4530
12/07/01 07:42 PM
12/07/01 07:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
Eric Anderson Offline OP
member
Eric Anderson  Offline OP
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
“””Hi Eric
<br>Could you clarify your point of view .
<br>EA wrote
<br>Point #1 No amount of jockeying with sail area/weight will equalize the performance of 20 foot cats as diverse as the Dart 20, Nacra 6.0NA, CFR20,Inter 20 etc over a wide range of wind speeds. This is not to say that you could not make them all rate the same under Texel, or under the ISAF system. You can accomplish this if desired. This would be the equivalent of a level-rating band in PHRF. This is not what I envision a true formula class to be.
<br>
<br>MS
<br>I don't get your technical argument here.
<br>
<br>EA2 PHRF fleets sometimes use level rating bands. This would be a group of boat types that have a similar PHRF rating. I.e. a PHRF band from 130-140. In this group the first to finish wins. The racers all agree to this even though the boats can have very different sailing characteristics. The end result is that even very good sailors won’t win if they get conditions that favor their boats. An Inter 20 and a spinnaker equipped Nacra 6.0 have very different sailing characteristics. When they sail boat for boat, wind strength, direction and how choppy the water is, determines who will be fastest assuming equal sailing skills.
<br>
<br>One option in cat racing, which is what I think Carl is advocating, is to allow any 20 ft X 8.5 ft Cat platform to race by changing the sailplane and min boat and crew weight. What you end up with are boats with very different sailing characteristics. They will be equal under some conditions and not equal under others. I don’t think this is fair.
<br>
<br>The other option is to have a more restrictive class, the performance characteristics of sail area, etc regulated. Anybody can build it if they follow strict guidelines.
<br>
<br>
<br>MS How is the F18 situation different? “”
<br>
<br>
<br>EA2 The sailing characteristics of the existing F-18 boats are much more similar because the rule is tight. Are they one design? No. Are certain designs better then others? Yes they are. Are some boats favored under differing conditions? Yes. The difference between formula boats is small enough that the best skipper usually wins. The results for the Major F-18 regattas show boats from 5-6 manufactures in the top 20. To me this is close racing that is boat independent. Good and Fair racing.
<br>
<br>MS Why is Nacra producing an F18 if their I18 was optimal... Hmm perhaps chop effects the I18 a bit more then the hull volume of I18 helps it. (or so the market believes... ergo Performance needs a new boat)
<br>
<br>In thinking about this it seems to me your argument is really a Show Me argument. the F18's have proven over a period of 6 or so years that the boats are even on the water AND the weight correction system works well. (At least that is what we hear over here). The fact that they all measure into the formula is nice but not critical. You are persuaded by proof on the water that the racing is tight enough to be called fair. Note though that the Dart Hawk dropped out of the running in F18 because it could not keep up.
<br>
<br>What we are really talking about is how much prescion in different boat performance do we need to call the racing “fair” and most importantly have the racers think that its fair.
<br>
<br>You may be right here.... Only experience on the water will give sailors the sense of fairness.
<br>The Mystere 6.0 and Nacra 6.0 rated the same in Texel and both were faster then the Classic Tornado. Reality is... Nacra was faster in light air and T was faster in breeze and the mystere never quite measured up..... Thus the portsmouth ratings. In this example, the formula is NO Comfort if you don’t feel that you have a chance. against someone who is about equal in sailing ability on a different boat.
<br>
<br>I had not really considered this as such a critical factor in getting a formula 20 class going If you can’t SHOW that foxes and Inter 2o’s and Mysterer X/s are really close in performance you may never get people to buy into the f20 mindset. Hmmm. Texel and the French cat championships seem to indicate that Tornado's, Foxes, and euro I20's are very close of course the Foxes and euro I20's already measure into the euro f20 rule.
<br>
<br>Is there any possible way that we could adopt the euro f20 rule and maintain a coherent rule AND have a huge euro database of lots of boats proving that the designs are fair on the water?
<br>
<br>Take Care
<br>Mark
<br>
<br>EA2 Certainly the cleanest way would be to adopt the Euro rules en mass. I don’t think this would fly in the US though. Next best are Euro rules but with a larger sail area allowed. This is the route I think we should go. I feel a rule that encompasses all 20 footers currently made today or in the future is unlikely to provide fair racing. If it is not fair, I don’t want to play.
<br>
<br>Eric
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>

Re: fairness [Re: Eric Anderson] #4531
12/10/01 09:03 AM
12/10/01 09:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Eric
<br>
<br> The lessons the Tornado class has taught us in its 35 year existance is to allow developement , modification ,and updates to naturally occur with advances in sailing design .
<br>
<br> Locking in your area to a 6/0 with no snuffer and shute will lead to its demize , while the Tornado , Inter 20 s ,-and Formula boats continue on . The best thing you could do for your fleet and cat sailing in general would be to encourage a Formula 20 class that includes them as part of a larger continueing fleet of Formula 20s well into the future .
<br>
<br>-Sailing a new mfg. boat every couple years is a huge advantage ,---new sails ,--stiffer platform ,---Fair sailing ?
<br>
<br> The new boat weighs less , -sailing at min crew weight may also place such a team 60 -70 -80 LBs or more lighter than others in their supposed manufacturers one design fleet ,----fair sailing ?
<br>
<br> If you can't win given these advantages over older heavier cats and crews there is something very wrong.
<br>
<br> The obvious solution is to allow teams with older boats to modify , -The 6/0 is a fantastic cat with a shute , add the snuffer ,-allow the fleet to update similarly with the T -Inter and numerous other designs , and compete with other 20s on a fair equal basis.
<br>
<br> This would mean giving up the huge weight advantage -
<br> and the advantage of new sails and stiffer ,lighter platform just bought, -
<br> fair sailing ,---not just for the min,weight ,--or those that can purchase a new boat .
<br>
<br>-Sail area to weight ratios are a common design calculation used in the process of creating all sailing craft design and is an essential part of this process ,-its principles well proven .
<br>
<br> Failure to comprehend and understand these basics of design does not warrent the misdirection and false conclusion provided as to fair sailing ,--
<br>
<br> The definition and conditions of fair sailing provided by those on a new lightweight mfg.boat at min.crew weight , 70 LBs lighter than some while attempting to label others who address these issues as being percieved as unfair is , ------------well you can see ,-and deside this for yourself.
<br>
<br> <br><br>

Re: fairness [Re: sail6000] #4532
12/10/01 10:37 PM
12/10/01 10:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
Eric Anderson Offline OP
member
Eric Anderson  Offline OP
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
CR””
<br>The lessons the Tornado class has taught us in its 35 year existance is to allow developement , modification ,and updates to naturally occur with advances in sailing design .
<br>
<br>Locking in your area to a 6/0 with no snuffer and shute will lead to its demize , while the Tornado , Inter 20 s ,-and Formula boats continue on . The best thing you could do for your fleet and cat sailing in general would be to encourage a Formula 20 class that includes them as part of a larger continueing fleet of Formula 20s well into the future . “”
<br>
<br>EA I am not the person who decides what the local Nacra 6.0 fleet will do. The fleet decides. The fleet decision was to continue to sail main and jib only at this time for bouys racing. I would be just as happy if we raced with chutes, however ½ the fleet does not want it. I would rather sail in a big fleet then a smaller spinnaker fleet. At the point I decide I want to race chutes around the buoys, I would buy an Inter 20 anyway.
<br>
<br>CR ””-Sailing a new mfg. boat every couple years is a huge advantage ,---new sails ,--stiffer platform ,---Fair sailing ?
<br>
<br>The new boat weighs less , -sailing at min crew weight may also place such a team 60 -70 -80 LBs or more lighter than others in their supposed manufacturers one design fleet ,----fair sailing ?
<br>
<br>If you can't win given these advantages over older heavier cats and crews there is something very wrong. “”
<br>EA So what you are saying is that people buying new boats are Cheating? That is absurd. Secondly, I don’t think the new boats (6.0’s) are any lighter then the old ones. Why would they be? They use the same layup scheduals as they used to. Regardless of whether you have a new boat or not, New sails are a necessity. I figure I sail the Nacra 50 days a year. Mainsails last about 1 ½-2 years in top form and jibs last about 20 days of racing, less in high winds. Implying that I or others are not being fair by maintaining equipment in top form is not rational. The top 4 boats this year in the New England 6.0 class were aprox 360, 350, 325 and 290 lbs crew weight. All 4 of the teams won at least one Regatta during the summer The 4 teams had boats built in 2001,1994,1995,and 1998. 2 of the 4 top boats were at least 6 years old. All had new sails though.
<br>
<br>
<br>CR “””The obvious solution is to allow teams with older boats to modify , -The 6/0 is a fantastic cat with a shute , add the snuffer ,-allow the fleet to update similarly with the T -Inter and numerous other designs , and compete with other 20s on a fair equal basis.
<br>
<br>This would mean giving up the huge weight advantage -
<br>and the advantage of new sails and stiffer ,lighter platform just bought, -
<br>fair sailing ,---not just for the min,weight ,--or those that can purchase a new boat . “”
<br>
<br>EA see comments above
<br>
<br>CR “””-Sail area to weight ratios are a common design calculation used in the process of creating all sailing craft design and is an essential part of this process ,-its principles well proven .
<br>
<br>Failure to comprehend and understand these basics of design does not warrent the misdirection and false conclusion provided as to fair sailing ,--
<br>
<br>The definition and conditions of fair sailing provided by those on a new lightweight mfg.boat at min.crew weight , 70 LBs lighter than some while attempting to label others who address these issues as being percieved as unfair is , ------------well you can see ,-and deside this for yourself. “””
<br>
<br>EA Carl please stick to the facts and quit resorting to misdirection. My basic argument is that the current 20 footers can’t be made equivelent by just changing sail areas and min weights. I would be happy if you would offer a rational debate on how close the boats would be in performance, and over what range of conditions. Why for instance a P19 can make up for a shorter waterline length in windy conditions with more sail area. I would also be interested in why a light boat with a heavy crew would not outperform a heavy boat with a light crew in windy or puffy conditions. Instead of debate, you insinuate that I am seeking an unfair advantage by sailing a “a new lightweight mfg.boat at min.crew weight, 70 LBs lighter than some”” I am buying a new boat. (A new 420 lb Nacra 6.0) However I had one of the oldest boats in the fleet until now. Unfortunately, I am not sailing at min weight. In reality, I sailed between 350 and 365 lbs crew weight this year. Yes, there is a large range of crew weights in our division. It does not seem to bother the good sailors too much.
<br>
<br>Sail Fast, Take Chances.
<br>Eric
<br>
<br><br><br>

Re: fairness [Re: Eric Anderson] #4533
12/11/01 08:28 AM
12/11/01 08:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi eric
<br>
<br> Described in the post above is the manufacturers one design rules , formed to encourage the purchase of new boats , and geared towards min weight crew -, and to lock in to their specific parts gear and sails only to be part of a class.
<br>
<br> if one chooses to believe this is {fair } -then fine ,--
<br>
<br>-The ideal one design would regulate boat weight ,--they obviously do not . -and allow some type of crew weight compensation just as all Formula classes do.
<br> this would be FAIR sailing .
<br>
<br> The concept of formula racing is to allow different boats of equal performance ability to race together . Equal length ,--equal beam , and equal sail area to weight ratio ,-
<br> All these boats rate fractionally together ,--With these basic design parameters the same you have equalized them 95% -
<br> What you are now debating is the last 5-in wt to sail ar ,-board shape ,-sail shape ,-etc , all of which can be modified and changed in Formula ,--
<br>
<br> I understand this is difficult to grasp only having a basic understanding of boats from an averaged timed rating perspective .-
<br> Sail area to weight ratios are a common element of yacht design , --and formula racing is not mfg .one design .
<br>
<br>-The choice of boat in Formula how they set up and modify it , by adding sails -rudders boarde ,mast , gear of their choice , is Formula racing ,----just different to allow many different cat designs to race together equally on a first across the line wins basis which most all prefer.
<br>
<br> this is FORMULA -racing -no one type of boat will win in all conditions as we all know from mixed results of distance racing ,-racing sailors will be modifying existing boats and new Formula boats will be developed ,--surprized some can not seem to comprehend this. -
<br><br><br>

Re: fairness [Re: Eric Anderson] #4534
12/11/01 09:35 AM
12/11/01 09:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
A few more notes ;
<br>
<br> The wonderfull aspects of this Formula 20 Class as proposed is that it would allow a variety of 20 ft-- 8.5 beam cat designs to all race together by equal modification per proven design formula , and allow new equal 20 ft cat designs to be placed on the market for cat sailors insuring a large active racing class for bouys and distance racing well into the future.
<br>
<br>-The P 19 would be the extreme example , --but what is the alternative for a P-19 owner without the $ to purchase a new 15 k cat ,---
<br> The P-19 HAS LIGHTWEIGHT AND EXCELLENT SMYTH SAIL PLAN going for it , add a 270 sq ft shute w snuffer , modify any other aspect of the boat to your preference , maybe add an open transom fairing plate off the stern using light foam core and epoxy to extend the effective hull length to a full 20 ft .adding bouyancey and less stern drag .
<br> Her is an excellent fast light cat design , at 1/3 the cost of a new one , -and again where do these dead boat classes have to go to race in a large fleet .
<br>
<br> Any beginning cat sailor that would like to race could find an older 20 platform like a Tornado , Prindle ,-Nacra , Mystere , Hobie ,-or purchase new hulls and platform cat from any design ,-
<br> many older ones are available for less than 2 k .
<br> Add a chute , build some rudders or boards or purchase some , set it up and bouys race , and try a distance race in a large fleet on the biggest fastest 20 ft class with some of the best sailors in the country.--what fun .
<br>
<br> No class can insure [FAIRNESS ] for all ,--the world is often unfair , -but this allows the opportunity for fair equal racing of your choice of boat and any combination of modification to it .
<br>
<br> This will grow the sport , -and is a proposal and class for the racing cat sailor .
<br>
<br> Happy Holidays
<br> Carl<br><br>


Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 209 guests, and 79 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,405
Posts267,056
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1