Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
division of church and state #4570
12/09/01 05:44 PM
12/09/01 05:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
majsteve Offline OP
member
majsteve  Offline OP
member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
Ok, since we basically agree on a few things I think it might be a place to start from.
<br>
<br>Lets talk about basic outlines of rules or the box line by line in order to get things accomplished.
<br>
<br>For the record Carl I do not support or advocate multiple sailplans in this class. Second, I do not advocate an extended grandfather clause.
<br>
<br>I think we should build box rules around the I20 and Fox. After that we grandfather existing boats for three years until they are out of their service life. After that they are not NAF 20 legal.
<br>
<br>Steve<br><br>

--Advertisement--
Re: division of church and state [Re: majsteve] #4571
12/09/01 06:25 PM
12/09/01 06:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 305
toronto, canada
B
basket.case Offline
enthusiast
basket.case  Offline
enthusiast
B

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 305
toronto, canada
hey steve.
<br> you still have not answered my question, in a different thread, about your feelings on the IACC boats.<br><br>

Re: division of church and state I agree [Re: majsteve] #4572
12/09/01 07:17 PM
12/09/01 07:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
I agree with Steve<br><br>


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: division of church and state [Re: basket.case] #4573
12/09/01 10:09 PM
12/09/01 10:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
majsteve Offline OP
member
majsteve  Offline OP
member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
Basket Case,
<br>
<br>I apologize for not responding to your question. Please repost it here and I will respond.
<br>
<br>Steve<br><br>

Re: division of church and state [Re: majsteve] #4574
12/09/01 10:22 PM
12/09/01 10:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 305
toronto, canada
B
basket.case Offline
enthusiast
basket.case  Offline
enthusiast
B

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 305
toronto, canada
am i reading you right? are you saying that the iacc is a one design class?
<br> it was something you said in a post to mhb regarding the minimum crew weight thread.
<br>thanx.<br><br>

Re: division of church and state [Re: basket.case] #4575
12/10/01 09:09 AM
12/10/01 09:09 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
majsteve Offline OP
member
majsteve  Offline OP
member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
Ok, I read the string and my comment regarding AC boats as one design. Since the AC where DC brought the catamaran and beat the crap out of everything else. Yes, the class is ESSENTIALLY one design. My meaning here is that everything falls into a very strict set of box rules. Is it strict in the matter that you have to get your boat from the same manufacturer and sails from the same sailmaker? NO.
<br>
<br>However, the rules are set where the boats are basically identical. If you measure the boats along the rules formulas you will find that each one is mathematically identical -- which in essense is one design.
<br>
<br>AC boats are a one design as Tornados (historically) are.
<br>
<br>If you would like a set of the AC rules I can find the link and send it too you. My position is well founded and defended.
<br>
<br>Thanks
<br>Steve<br><br>

Re: division of church and state [Re: majsteve] #4576
12/10/01 09:27 AM
12/10/01 09:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Steve
<br> You are free to worship the cat manufacturer of your choice ,--joking -
<br>
<br> -We have the FOX at 418LB WITH 193 SQ FT MAIN -
<br> The Inter at 388 LB WITH 208 SQ FT MAIN --
<br>
<br> if you can guarentee one or the other will change and meet the others specs than we have the basis for a similar Formula class ,---
<br>
<br> WE HAVE A 30 LB BOAT WEIGHT DIFFERENCE HERE -
<br> PLUS 15 SQ FT OF MAIN SAIL AREA -
<br>
<br> obviously some other solution is required .
<br> maybe a weight to sail area ratio to equalize them ,-commonly used by all navel architects and designers in creating sailing craft design .
<br>
<br>-Sailing venues ,-
<br> In Prosail they were , Mystic Conn. --New London ,-Ultimate Y R , --ONE on the Great Lakes ,--Miami Fl. --San Fran ,Calif.
<br> Corpus Cristy Tex. ,--there are certainly other great venues around the country ,--times of year are important ,
<br> In May some will see 1000 miles of the eastern seaboard ,-they are all great ,I like em all.
<br>
<br> take care ,and keep us updated on the sailing series -
<br> Carl<br><br>

Re: division of church and state [Re: sail6000] #4577
12/10/01 01:23 PM
12/10/01 01:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
majsteve Offline OP
member
majsteve  Offline OP
member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
Carl
<br>
<br>I had three I20's weighed this last week. One brand new, one a few months old and one old worrell boat. They weighed in at 402, 396, 418 in order. Also, weighed two Fox's both newer 405, 412. As you can see there is no basis for boat leveler. The problem is that these boats are not built to strict standards so no two boats are EXACTLY alike. Two boats built on the same day are often off by 10 lbs!
<br>
<br>Both manufacturers will build a sail plan to a formula minimum. I do not think that it is fair for either manufacturer to be stuck with an existing design or layout for formula racing. Rather the formula assoc. should set minimums and allow the racers to modify SA's to meet their requirements and sailing preferences.
<br>
<br>Thank you for the old prosail venues. I have someone working on venues for the racing series. Hopefully, will be able to annouce something within the next few months.
<br>
<br>Steve<br><br>

Steve, if this is one-design then what is the ... [Re: majsteve] #4578
12/10/01 06:39 PM
12/10/01 06:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Steve, if this is one-design then what is the definition of formula ?
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: division of church and state [Re: majsteve] #4579
12/10/01 07:44 PM
12/10/01 07:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 305
toronto, canada
B
basket.case Offline
enthusiast
basket.case  Offline
enthusiast
B

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 305
toronto, canada
there are so many trade-offs in the iacc formula that you can get two boats that are 'basicly' the same, but you can also get two boats that are radically different. if not, explain black magic's dominance.
<br> i do not understand how a beach cat builder could have such a great swing in weights. i have built cruising cats for the last 12 years and we would have a 10lb swing on a 36' hull.<br><br>

Re: division of church and state [Re: basket.case] #4580
12/10/01 08:03 PM
12/10/01 08:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
majsteve Offline OP
member
majsteve  Offline OP
member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
The swing in weight as you know is from poor quality control and in general is from the "business" model that these companies employ.
<br>
<br>Wouter, my point IACC boats are essentially formula while lying under the guise of "one design". The arguement can be had either way. It is the way that the "box" is written and how it is implimented. We just generally think one design as delivered from a single source (manufacture). However, box rules can be written to make varying formulas "one design". I do not condone this for the existing fleet but future boats should be set out in this formula.
<br>
<br>If build technique are regulated then varying hull shapes and designs will all weigh the same. Therefore regulations regarding SA are also contained making a "formula" fleet out of a "one design box" as is the IACC.
<br>
<br>Steve<br><br>

Re: division of church and state [Re: majsteve] #4581
12/10/01 08:26 PM
12/10/01 08:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 305
toronto, canada
B
basket.case Offline
enthusiast
basket.case  Offline
enthusiast
B

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 305
toronto, canada
please, "If build technique are regulated then varying hull shapes and designs will all weigh the same." if one hull has 150 sq ft and another has 151 sq ft, there is no way you can make them weigh the same, if you use the same laminate schedule. it is simple math.
<br> read the iacc rule again.<br><br>

Okay. (nm) [Re: majsteve] #4582
12/11/01 05:06 PM
12/11/01 05:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 209 guests, and 79 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,405
Posts267,056
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1