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Re: Square TOP trim question [Re: scooby_simon] #48415
05/06/05 03:53 PM
05/06/05 03:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

I kinda assumed you would all have a forest of telltails on your sails - I do.


I don't. Just three right behind the mast and the long one at the very top of the leech. Apart from that I steer by the feeling of drive and speed.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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Re: Square TOP trim question [Re: Wouter] #48416
05/06/05 08:10 PM
05/06/05 08:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline
old hand
Darryl_Barrett  Offline
old hand

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
An interesting posting appearing in the "general Anarchy" forum "Sailing Anarchy"
(Quote)
The repeated comment that is TOTALLY off base is that pre-bend has anything at all to do with how much the unsupported top of a rig falls off to leeward in gusts. The two concepts could not possibly be more orthagonal. If you want to argue that point, you just don't have a good grasp of why tubes bend, and how much they bend. The amount they bend to the side is totally independent of how much they are bent fore-and-aft. Totally!

Bethwaite has it right, in that a total system of mast+spreaders+boom+shrouds+sail works together in a coordinated manner. He points out that when a gust comes along, the increase in load on the leech of the main will cause the mast to bend more, and when you've got swept spreaders, then the distance from the chainplates to the hounds decreases, the rig falls to leeward slightly. As the hounds are only part way up, then a smooth curve develops to the masthead.

However, there ain't nothing there about needing pre-bend to make that happen effectively.

There are two reasons for pre-bend:

1) Pre-bend stabilizes the rig (this was mentioned above). The full and correct answer is:

When the full set of 'wires' (forestay, inner forestay, backstay, runners, jumpers, shrouds, etc.) and the full set of sail forces (luff tension, luff curve, batten pressures, outhaul, downhaul, cunningham, etc.) and the stiffness of the mast tube and spreader mountings all together balance forces such the mast has a consistent curve, then obviously you've got a bunch of forces working in many different planes, and the sum of the forces against the stiffness of the rig defines one curve. Very completely, in 3 dimensions.

If there is no (or little) pre-bend, then the mast will noodle around somewhat until it gets forces building up from some rigging or another against the stiffness of the tube. By bending first, you are already at that stressed state. You have essentially removed the slop from the complete mast system. The slop in the system consumes energy, instead of having that energy go into forward motion. So you go slower.

2) Main sail flattening (way off base in the answers above -- the unsupported mast tip falling off the leeward is totally independent of prebend). There are two correct answers here:

2a) On a rotating rig, the prebend causes the main to be flatter when the mast is rotated less, and you rotate less upwind and as the wind increases. The tip falls to leeward better when the mast is rotated very little too, causing the main to depower at the top. Also, the lift-drag characteristics of a rotating mast mainsail system is more tolerant of under rotation than over rotation, so you are adding some width to your groove, so you can better sail in seas and gusts and the larger boat speed changes you experience on a multihull in heavy air. You are erring to the side of low drag, over high lift. The right thing in a breeze.

2b) A pre-bend rig should always have somewhat more curvature towards the bottom of the rig. This means that when you reef, you are moving the main down and flattening the main due to the increase in mast bend. Not that anyone reefs anymore.

2c) On a non-rotating rig, the prebend is an automatic draft control mechanism for your mainsail: As you sheet out, as on a reach or downwind, the main gets fuller. Sheet in, and it gets flatter.


Like most things with boats, the value of pre-bend is not absolute, or even all that good. Pre-bend works within certain constraints. Outside of those rules, different approaches are far better.

For example: if you can have lots of smart crew, and there are no rules about the amount of adjustability of rake, then you really, really do NOT want pre-bend on a monohull. You are far, far, FAR faster with running backs with checkstays and lots of headstay length adjustment -- as in many feet! And no swept spreaders! Like an AC boat.

Or if you really want speed, go with a full wing mast.
(end Quote"

Re: Square TOP trim question [Re: Jalani] #48417
11/20/07 08:30 AM
11/20/07 08:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
Quote
. . .Increasing cunningham tension pulls the max draft of the sail forward . . .


So how much draft do you want and how far forward?

What is optimal sail shape for a Uni?

Re: Square TOP trim question [Re: fin.] #48418
11/24/07 03:35 AM
11/24/07 03:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 196
Arkansas, USA
C
CaptainKirt Offline
member
CaptainKirt  Offline
member
C

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 196
Arkansas, USA
Just some notes-
I've heard using wool and spraying with Woolite or Sailkote can help prevent "sticking" to the sails-
Spreader length- This was a "big deal" at the A cat World's as it seems most of the US sailors were going to wider spreaders (even had one chap desperately seeking wider arms just prior!!) BUT Glenn and the Aussies were using "standard" spreader lengths- And we know who won overall.
The thing that impressed me the most about Glenn's boat was SIMPLICITY!
It was a STOCK GelTek Flyer with the only "mods" I could see a compass added and a small block at the lower shroud the downhaul was run through so it could be easily pulled ON from the trap.
Glenn carries I think he said 3 sets of battens for the top three- stiffer for higher wind.
Wing sails- NOT necessarily faster than the current crop of CF masts and square top sails- witness Ben (Hall's) very nice wing sail at the World's- He was fast downwind but hard to get upwind and hard to keep in the "groove"- Of course he is new with it and it's "1st generation" but there are LOTS of "issues" with "wings"- his was pretty much only up while he was out sailing- beyond that it was off the boat in it's "box" and if you capsize and IT fills with water <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Uni - Best to get a uni cut main although Jay (Glaser) told me they are now pretty much the same since the blade jib is so small but on the Taipans the sloop mains are cut flatter at the foot to keep the slot open vs the uni specific mains.
Your sailmaker should be able to tell you the "design parameters" of your sail- ie prebend you need and often the spreader length they recommend, although these are starting points as has been discussed.

Kirt


Kirt Simmons
Taipan, Flyer
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