Hear my advice, please.

I know that I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but you all should really look for the AHPC Carbon stocks (new since 2003). The McKenzie carbon stocks, as found on some Blades, is NOT the same as these AHPC stocks. Actually, I love my AHPC stocks to bits. They are the best stocks that I ever used, and they kick-up beautifully, don't have any creep, and are simpler and cheaper then the Dotan or Marstrom stocks. I read that a single Marstrom stock is 530 Euro's. I only payed 360 Euro's for a PAIR of carbon AHPC stocks.

If you ask me then this is one serious option so should all consider. I heard that Vectorworks has a new supplier for their stocks now and I can't yet comment on these as I haven't seen the final product yet.

There is one thing that I fail to understand though. AHPC has proven with their new (2003) carbon stocks setup to produce one of the most simple, best working, best looking and inexpensive stocks. Yet everyone in the F16 community is trying to reinvent the wheel and in some cases even failing at that.

AHPC got it all right this time. Indeed their previous stocks were decent but still had some quirks that you needed to get used too. However, they have solved all that with their 2003 stocks. The lock-down rod is even easy to engage now and will guide itself into the locking hole when the pin is placed relative close to the locking hole (a behaviour the older versions didn't have). I've hit a few sand bars and anker chains now and no damage to my rudderboards. My rudders are also not popping up when screaming along on a power reach nor is there any creep in the lock-down mechanism.

I fine-tuned the locking force early 2005 and secured the adjuster nut to the threading by wrapping some selfvulcanising tape around it. I haven't touched the rudder setup since and it is still operating as I tuned back then. Each time after sailing I take of my rudder stocks and store them in a bag in the shed. This frequent handling had no effect at all on the locking behaviour.

Guys, AHPC got it right this time with their current stock and locking rod. I wouldn't know what to alter about it.

I'm still crossing my fingers that some other builders will learn from this setup and start producing excellent setup themselfs.


Wouter

Wouter the AHPC rudder stock royally suck for our South FL environment. Too much sea grass, to many sand bars. If my rudder hit anything, I bent a stainless steal screw that was a huge pain in the but to replace.

I have ahpc rudder stocks and I am not happy with them.

Thought you had replaced your Rudder Kickups?
Looked all through your website and only saw one pict of the rudders, #3.
Looks like the Little ear that sticks out the could be a pain if you fell on it.

Wout:
Got a picture of your rudder setup?

This is a common misunderstanding.

Maybe it is time that I forget about being impartial for a moment.

Robi, you do NOT have the AHPC stocks. You have the McKenzie stocks, which were supposed to be a carbon copy of the AHPC stocks but in reality are just a ....., Well you can guess what words are missing here.

I tested the McKenzie stocks myself on teh first Blade F16 to arrive on the European shores and I was seriously disappointed by them. I still have trouble accepting that McKenzie did such a poor job on the stocks and if it is up to me then no McKenzie stocks will ever come to Europe. I'm not kidding. The European buyers of the Blade are all going for a different supplier of stocks, including the guy who bought the first Blade.

I know Vectorworks Marine has sourced a new supplier for the stocks, but I have not seen the new stocks myselfs so I can't comment on them. I'm really hoping that this new supplier took a good hard look at the post 2003 AHPC stocks.




I don't have that much issues with weeds and waterplants, so indeed I do not test the rudderstocks in this way much. However, the marstrom stocks are in basis not any different then the AHPC stocks, the same applies to a variaty of stocks except Hobie and Dotan stocks. If you have trouble clearing weeds of the AHPC stock (Not the McKenzie stock) then you have exactly the same trouble clearing it off the Marstrom (etc) stocks. So why pay 3 times the money for exactly the same thing ?

I hear some people are consider the old Nacra pull-down line system. Most diagrams/photo's of it that I've seen show a setup that has exactly the same issues whe clearing weed. For example : you need to go the leeward side of the boat to clear weeds of the leeward rudder. But in addition you have introduced new problems like rudder lock down creep, because the line is slipping through the cleat.




I repeat again. you do not have a AHPC rudder stock, you have the McKenzie copy of an AHPC stock and that is a very very poor copy.

In addition, your amount of sandbars don't impress me much. I don't sail in any ocean either. I go out and come in through huge surfs, passing at least a tripled of sandbars. And I have encountered my share of ankerchains, bouy ankerlines by now. All the time the stocks worked exactly as planned and much better then any F18, Prindle or Hobie stocks I ever sailed with. I'm not kidding here. The best thing about the AHPC stocks is that you can actually unlock them before entering the surf and still sail full speed through the breakers with your rudders fully down. Only at the first sandbar the tips his the bottom and float up immediately. This means I have full control when going through the large breaking surf at high speed, something I did not have with other stock design as they would have been trailing behind the boat already. Also the force to release the rudder boards on the AHPC stocks (not Mckenzie stocks) is lower than on say the Hobie or nacra stocks. On the Hobie and Nacra stocks you could feel the tip of the rudderboards being dragged over the bottom for a while. With my AHPC stocks this doesn't happen.

I'm not kidding, these AHPC stocks are the best stocks I have used ever, with the Hobie tiger stocks coming in as close second.





You really do not AHPC stocks. Not many in USA have the post 2003 AHPC stocks actually. Most Taipan sailors have the pre-2003 Alu AHPC stocks and these are less optimal. The Blade sailors all have the McKenzie stocks which look alot like the AHPC stocks but fail on a couple of key design features. These make the McKenzie stocks a real pain in the neck (IMHO).

If you don't believe me then ask Tim Bohan, I showed him my stocks and how they work/kick-up when he was over here.

Wouter

Pictures of the AHPC rudderstock.

[color:"red"]Everybody please note that when two rudderstocks look the same they can still behave totally differently. [/color] The whole trick to the Rod lock down system is in the details. Get those wrong (as McKenzie did) and you end up with a poor rudderstock. Get these details right and you'll end up with an excellent rudderstock.

Also note that in my opinion all Mckenzie stocks can be "repaired" to the planned behaviour by replacing the McKenzie rod system by the AHPC rod system. It is all in the details of how the rod system is implemented. The McKenzie rudderboards and the carbon stock itself are good, the McKenzie rod system and lock-down plates are just wrong.

I think this modification is by far the cheapest to perform. Buy two rods with additional locking plate (goes onto the tiller arm) and much stronger threaded claw (that goes around the rudderboard) will not cost much at all. Shipping of these parts will not be dear as all components will fit inside a plain envelopped used for letter sized documents. You will have to do some TLC work to fit the new rod but even that is not beyond most sailors capabilities.

Now I will present the pictures and give some additional comments.

I sailed with the McKenzie stocks one and I've tried to get them properly tuned on the beach. I eventually gave up and adviced the owner to spend some money on proper stocks, well worth it. Fine tuning my own AHPC stocks took about 15 minutes for both sides including some 20 kick-up and lock-down tests. That was back in spring time 2005 and I never had to re-adjust it since.

















My additional comments after using this system for almost 2 years now :

First the rod system, note how :

-1- the rod itself is longer than on the Mckenzie stocks. It bends more easily as a result. You don't have to lean over backwards as far.

-2- The fork that is fitted over the protruding bit on the rudder board is much more robust and it will NOT bend when put under high load.

-3- The threading on the rod is of a larger diameter then on the McKenzie system; also a shorter portion of it is exposed. This thread will NOT bend only load. And I have placed it under load plenty of times.

-4- The rod itself is made of glassfibre (NOT carbon), however it is covered with a layer of heat shrink tube. The Heat shrink is actually the black stuff that you see. This heat shrink has two major advantages. You can use a glass rod (bends more easily, as is critical in the operation of the system) without worrying about glass splinters finding their way in your flesh. The heat shrink also prevents the glass rod from being damaged or disintegrating. The heat shrink keeps all fibres in line, preventing fibres to break away. The black also looks better I think.

-5- All fittings on the rod are high grade stainless steel = strong, stiff and very durable. Even the little plate that takes the lock down pin is of high grade stainless steel. This means that its hole will not wear out and neither will the lock down pin itself.

-6- The stainless steel handle on the far left hand side of the rod is a key feature in the operation of the system. If it is too short (as in the Mckenzie case) the lock down system will be hard to engage. In AHPC case the handle is precisely of the right length. More on this later.

-7- The lock down pin in the AHPC system is indeed a PIN and not a plate as in the McKenzie system. This makes engaging the lock down ALOT easier ! The pin itself has a round tip (dome shaped) and this means that the pin will guide itself into the locking hole when positioned close enough to the whole. When the handle is held right then with just one hand the skipper can just place the pin on the plate containing the hole and find the hole WITHOUT LOOKING by just squeeshing the handle to the tiller and wiggling his hand just a little bit. As soon as the pin comes close to the edge of the hole it will drop in immediately. By squeeshing the handle towards the tiller the rod is bend a little and thus when the pin has found its locking hole the whole system is under some mild tension and there is no play in the setup.

-8- The rod comes relatively far forward on the tiller arms and teh skipper only needs to hold the left hand handle to engage the system. Meaning you really don't have the lean that far back on the boat. It seems like the Mastrom system requires you to lean back farther.



There is on other advantage to the AHPC stocks and that is that the rudder heads can be made to jam a little bit in the stocks. This can be adjusted by tightening the bolt that acts as the rotation axis of the baords. When carefully tuned, and this is an one time job as it will not slacken over time, then the locking rod can be disengaged without the board floating up. Or one can just swing the board down and sail away throught the surf and sandbars without wasting time on fully locking down the rudder. Once out the rudder can set properly and locked down fully.

Why is this handy ? Well, my experience is that other stock system allow the rudders to float upwards when the boat picks up speed, making steering in the surf very cumbersome and sluggish. Such horizontal rudders are also great ways to break your hardware. What I do now with the AHPC stocks is that I keep the leeward stock in its up position (out of the water) and as soon as I'm sailing away from the beach I have the locking rod of my luff rudder in my hand. Pressing down every one in a while to feel if the bottom is still there. As soon as I have about 2 or 3 feet of water below my keel line I quickly pull up my luff rudder board and then quickly swing it down again. The momentum of the board will then swing it down almost entirely, here the jamming action will keep my rudder down even when I really speed up the boat, however if I encounter another sandbar then the rudder is easily pushed loose again. Often this is a one-time action and I let go of the rod two have both hands available to work the mainsheet and the tiller to get through the larger surf that is further out. This way I have much improved steering without the need to lock down the system or to keep holding the system/lines/tillers to keep the rudders pressed down. This is something I could never do with my prindle stocks or even with various F18 stocks. I consider this to be a major advantage were I sail.


Disadvantages of the AHPC !

Well, in my opinion there aren't any serious disadvantages. But I will admit to the fact that the Hobie system is easier when you need to clear weeds often. However, the Nacra system or even any lock-down line system is worse then the AHPC stocks. The only line-lock down system that was better was a very special system as designed by Phill Brander himself. But I never seem a comparable system on any other boat, certainly not any production boats. It is also a much more complex system requiring many more parts and a bungee system inside the rear beam.

Disadvantage 2 (and that will be the last one) could be the fact that unlocking the system manually is easy when the skipper graps the rod in the middle and not on the stainless steel handle. You have to bend over the back of the boat a little bit farther. However I really don't see this as a problem as it is still easy to do, it disengages quickly and fully, and I don't know many situations where releasing the system manually is critical. You always have the option to let the system disengage automatically and to chose the time and spot where you want to clear the weed.

In my opinion ; these two disadvantages are rather minor points. It is not that the AHPC is bad in this respect, not at all actually, but rather that some other system is better then the AHPC system in this respect.In all other respects the AHPC is best. I think this is a pretty good score board for the AHPC setup.


For some info on how to properly lock down teh AHPC rod system go here :

http://www.ahpc.com.au/pdf/Using%20Smart%20Lk%20Snap%20System.pdf


I found that the following works best :

-1- Once clear of the beach, sandbars and surf; lift the rudderboard up and clear of the water then quickly push it down under gravity and pushing on the rod with some force. The board will swing all the way down, despite the water resistance. You are holding the end (handle) of the rid with only one hand.

-2- Move the rod down to the tiller with your hand on the handle placing the locking pin roughly on the lockigng plate )containing the locking hole)

-3- Wrap your fingers around the tiller arm while keeping the rod handle inside the palm of your hand. Now squeesh the handle towards the tiller arm, thus bending the locking rod a little.

-4- Move your hand about a little bit when squeeshing so the locking pin finds the locking hole. Let go of the rod and tiller when the pin is in the hole.

-5- When needed press down on the middle of the rod to push out any remaining bend. This will push down the rudderboard to its maximum forward position. When point -1- was done right then this action -5- should not be necessisary.


Disengaging :

-1- Grap the rod in the middle and pull upwards, this bends the rod a little and this is sufficient to have the pin snap out of the locking hole.

-2- throw the rod backwards in teh water over the rudder baord and have the first contact with the ground push the board up (this requires very little contact with the ground so no major risk of damage) or pull the board up by pulling on the rod itself. Of course I have set up my own rudders to jam inside the stock a little bit and so I often just disengage the rod and reach beneath the watersurface to give the board a short push to become unstuck.

-3- When pulling the board clear of the water, pull the rod all the way towards the locking plate for a lifted rudder and squeeh the locking pin as you would when engaging the system.

Wouter

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You told me I had McKenzie stock three times. LOL

Fair enough, but they are junk. Mine have already had to be overhauled due to some constructions issues.

I am no longer running the "stock"(as in came from factory) kickup system. My new system is bad butt. I will be able to bring, kick, or pop up the leeward rudder from the windward side.

Pictures and writeup will come after testing and making sure the system is 100% functional on my boat. It is already proven on various A cats in South FL.

I agree with everything Wouter has said above, so I won't go into great detail, he covered it very well. He did indeed demo his rudders for me on his boat, on the beach, we locked them down and then I smacked the rudder tips with my hand and they did pop up, as advertised. APHC did a very nice job on the rods, which is the single most critical peice of the system.

Two things are critical, 1. they have to pop up when you hit something hard (beach, sandbar) and 2. they have to stay down when you are racing and not hitting the beach! My Jav 2 (2002) eddition rudders were always popping up when I got the thing going fast, not good during a race, then they wouldn't come up if you beached it!

I saw the original Blade rods that Matt had on his boat back last spring, they had a very small diameter stainless adjuster screw at the end wich was prone to bending/breaking. I have not seen what he is using now but I know he was equally dissapointed with those early models and looking for something better.

The problem of having to go to the low side to unlock that rudder remains under either system. Simply driving it onto the beach and hoping it comes up is not an option, long term, it will damage the rudder and could rip it off the transom. At a minimum they require some advance planing. You must unlock one side, gybe, undo the other, or have the crew get over there and undo it, but when it's really blowing at the beach, and the surf is big, you had better get it done early on the way into shore.

On the way out, you can drive with one, tack, set the other one. Still, I love the Nacra system where you just lift the crossbar and both come up or down at the same time, or you can do one at a time. Is it so hard to do that in carbon? Maybe it's Pattent protected? What are they putting on their new A2?

We're getting to the point. EXCELLENT Writeup Wout. That was a great help to us all.
Points:
1. There is a big difference between performance on the AHPC Systems and McKenzies Clone system.
2. McKenzies were originally supplied on the Blade, but are being replaced by an improved system.
3. Robi had the McKenzies, but has replaced them with an improved system.
4. Wouter's home waters has more sandbars and less weeds than Florida.
QUESTIONS:
1. Is this modification the AHPC system or something else? IF it is, Please share. (Waiting for the Pictures.)
2. Is Robi's new "bad butt" system the same thing that is now supplied on the production Blades?
3. Do the new Blade 701 rudders still trip over sandbars and weeds?
4. Will this thread ever end without Wouter and Robi killing each other over minor points of language and misunderstandings?
Cary
Stirring up trouble, trying to get some answers, put us back on track, and defuse a little tension . . .
[color:"purple"] Hope my friend Sam Evans is well . . . [/color]

Purple? Who the hell EVER writes in PURPLE???

I did not see any tensions. I simply stated I did not like the AHPC's. Which is what I THOUGHT I had. I was wrong and since been corrected.

Then I stated that what I had is/was crap. The McKenzie setup that came with the boat. Matt McDonald knows about my discontent with them.

No my new setup is a modification to the McKenzie setup, it is not the new Blade setups.

I know that things are quiet at the moment, BUT, WHY mention S** E**** name. If S** ever comes back you will know why Cary is writing in "PURPLE"

OK, where's Chuck? He just bought a new Blade, has raced it a couple times and used to have a Tai Pan 4.9, he also has lots of experience on many other cats, including the Inter 20, so Chuck, what do you think on the rudder issue?

Hello, Chuck? Can you hear me Major Tom?? (he works for NASA)

I have a simple and effective procedure for that now and I must say that I'm quite satisfied with that while I do agree that some other systems like the Hobie/nacra F18 systems are very user friendly.

Pretty much what I do now it :

-1- Before entering the surf I park the boat and disengage the rods and throw both of them back into the water, over the rudderheads. The rudder boards stay down because of the mild jamming action I tuned into the system.

-2- I bear away and I just sail the boat through the surf with both rudder boards down. The forces on the boards because of steering seem to keep the boards down. As soon as the tips just ever so mildly hit bottom they become unjammed and float up. But that them I have cleared all sandbars and I'm sailing in knee deep water between the beach and the first sandbar.

A variation to this theme I use when singlehanding or when the waves are to much to comfortably park the boat.

-1- I plan an approach to the beach where I made one tack.

-2- Before I put in the tack I disengage the rod on the luff side and throw it back over the head of the board and into the water. This baord is then kept down by the friction between the rudderboard and the sides of the stock (mild jamming)

-3- I make a take and then aim for the landing spot on the beach.

-4- Right before I enter the surf or whenever I feel like it. I grap the rod on the new windward side and disengage that one and throw it back into the water. Both boards are now held down by the friction.

-5- I pump my way through the surf and often at some considerable speed. The rudders stay down till the first sandbar where the rudder tips hit the bottom and with only a very mild force kick-up the rudder boards. I can't overstate the mild force required to do so. The jamming is just enough to keep the boards down when sailing; any additional force is then enough to have the boards kick-up. I do not even feel the boat slow down when the boards kick-up. I don't feel anything; I just feel the load on the tiller suddenly increase and the steering becoming sluggish as a result of the rudders being horizontal.


With this AHPC system you pretty much disengage the lock-downs before you enter the surf. I know this sounds strange but it really works well. The friction in the system keeps the boards down while sailing through the surf. For some reason the rudderboards are very low drag on the Taipan and Blade F16. Speeding up the boat through the water doesn't seem to kick up the rudders, while a small force on the tip does. I've tested it on the beach and it is indeed a small force at the tip that is required. The stocks are also made in such a way that the jamming action only seem to happen when the board is almost all the way down. This is quite a ingenious idea.


I'll admit that new sailors will need to get used to handling the lock-down rod in a different way then more commonly excounter kick-up systems but after a few tries you get the hang of it and operating them is quite easy.

In august we do get quite alot of jelly fish along our coast line and sometimes, when hitting a large one, my rudder kicks-up. However I just give the tiller to my crew and instruct her to keep the boat depowered a bit. I then only need 2 to 4 second to set the rudder and lock it down again. That includes the leeward one. I need to go down to the leeward side but that only takes me a second and I only need 2 second the engage the system again. Pull-up, quickly push down again with force, squeesh and it is in.

Most of the time however I just cut throught the jelly fish. I see the rod bend, feel a slight thump go throught the boat and see the rudderboard move a little bit only to see the rod push the board back down again. It acts like it is spring loaded, the board can move a little bit when impacted and I feel this is beneficial in preventing damage.







The reason for having this rod system are different.

Lets be honest.


-1- It is very lightweight
-2- It is relatively cheap to make
-3- It hardly has any moving parts which makes it very dependable
-4- There is absolutely no play in the whole system (something I can not say of the Hobie/nacra F18 systems). This give crisp and tight feel of steerage.
-5- It doesn't seem to wear down or wear out over time. Other systems often need re-adjusting, this system really doesn't.
-6- There are no complex parts like little springs or adjuster crews.
-7- It is very easily made adjustable. A single threading and nut at one end of the rod is enough to make it fully adjustable. In this respect it is also very forgiving in the way of production accuracy. All parts maybe off by several millimeters and the system will still be working fine after adjusting the rod length. In case of the position of the locking plates or position of the protruding part on the rudderbaord, the "error" may even be centimeters.


But indeed, the best points about this system in my personal opinion are :

-1- absolutely no play in the whole setup. The baord is tight in the stock, it is always all the way down, it is not possible to have it sligtly out of trim and end up with significant luff or lee helm due to the inbalance. Steerage is accordingly crisp, precise and well balanced all the time.

-2- It doesn't need readjusting after it is tuned properly once. There are no components that can wear down, wear out or jam up due to dirt or salt. And if such dirt/salt would become a problem then this system is very easy to clean out. You have full acces to everything. Replacing any part is a breeze, any item can be disassembled by undoing only one thread/bolt. I really like the simplicity of the system and I think this adds to its robustness and dependability.


Actually this system was first pioneered by homebuilders; simply for the reason that it is very suited to homebuilding. The stocks used to be bend square aluminium tubes and the rod system can be made from a plain glassfibre rod and a few stainless steel bolts/nuts. All parts that are readily available.

I really like the fact that when need by I can personally jury rig a replacement for anything.

Wouter

Knock it off guys !

The deal was very clear. We will not give a certain person cause to post on this forum and this person will not post on the forum ever again.

Observe the conditions of the truce, please.

Anything and Everything can be discussed on this forum with the exception of S.E. or any statements that were made regarding this person in the past.

Wouter

I think Chuck had the older alu AHPC stock on his Taipan. The post 2003 AHPC stocks are noticeably better then their own (older) alu stocks as well. AHPC improved on the locking pin and plate as well as on the rod itself (adding heat shrink and an adjuster threading)

Wouter