I frequently have the same problems.

I will email you Marstrom Office Manager's phone number.

The best way to contact Marstrom initially is via fax. Once you setup a relationship. Then phone email is easier.

Marstrom is a very small company and Goran is normally at the major A-Class and Tornado events A-Class. That leaves the front office to manage things and they normally just do billing. I am also beginning to believe most of his boats are sold by Goran or friends at regatta

Contact Andrew Landenberger (he is Austrialian, so his first language is English) and tell him the person who bought the A-Class he sailed in Key Largo refered you. Ask for help. Andrew is also the best contact for sails. You can get colored sails. The best materials have limited colors.

If you still have problems let me know

I'm sorry to disappoint you guys with respect to Holland. The I-17's are indeed rarely seen. In the racing this season the F16's pretty much outnumbered both I-17's and FX-one's. Considering that at max there were only 3 F16's racing; go figure what that means for the I-17 and FX-one. (only 0, 1 or 2 ever raced) And I haven't even seen an M18 in real life yet.

Now we (F16's) are definately not a big class by any reasonable count (and we fully accept this), but isn't it just a little funny that in race it is precisely US (F16's) who outnumber the "big boy" designs of which "... big special competition ... in Europe ..." is claimed ?

So lets get real here. All boats mentioned (with spitfire and A-cats as the exceptions) are sailing open class in Europe without a hope of getting their own class start in the comming years. The M18 sailors have at best only an extremely remote hope of ever racing against another M18 design; lets alone have a class.

And THAT is the truth for Holland (and most of Europe in general)

Sorry guys.


**********

Here follows a section with links and info that should shed light on the "Big special competition in Europe with regard to FX-one"


2002

http://www.regattatime.nl/nieuws/nieuws.php?id=150&tblName=nieuws

Hobie FXone Europeans Katwijk Netherlands

1. Dirk Pool NED 14 points
2. Jan van Spellen NED 24 points
3. Herre Deurloo NED 32 points

Note how the 3rd place was taken by a sailor with 32 points ! From memory there weren't more than 5 FX-ones.


2003 Hobie Europeans Travemunde Germany

http://www.hobieworlds.com/h14-2003/resultsfxone.asp


1 NED 304 Pool, Dirk 1944 ( KZVW CKZ ) 2 1 2 1 3 1 2 [dnf] 1 - 13.00
2 NED 307 Zwitser, Dirk 1969 ( KWVS ) 1 2 3 2 [6] 2 1 4 4 - 19.00
3 NED 28 Deurloo, Herre 1982 ( CB ) 3 3 1 3 [5] 3 3 1 5 - 22.00
4 GER 185 Schrader, Mathias [6] 4 4 4 1 6 4 2 2 - 27.00
5 NED 200 Spellen, Jan van 1943 ( KZVS ) 5 [dns] dnf dns 2 4 5 3 3- 38.00
6 NED 80 Rooij, Andre de 1945 ( KZVS ) 4 [dnf] 5 5 4 5 6 dnf dnc - 45.00
7 NED 75 Goosen, Cor [dns] dns dnf dns 7 7 dnf dnf dnc - 62.00

Note the 19XX numbers ; those are their birth dates. I've met Cor Goosens at the 2001 Hobie nationals (2 FX-ones) and he is getting on in life as well. Also notice how all but one sailor are dutch sailors. Halve of them I know or met on the beach. Only Dirk Zwitser (in this listing) is a regular racer in the Netherlands; the other one isn't in this listing.

This 2003 result is the best attendence in this class I know off.


FX-one Europeans 2004

zo 8 vr 13
Eurocup FX-One & FOX
Cabanas Spanje

Results can not be found on the net. Rumour has it that tens of FX-ones were there. Without a publized results listing we can neither confirm nor disproof that claim. But some people believe that pigs can fly as well.




Lets go the French side of things then : (source : http://www.hobieclass.com/news.asp?MenuID=News%2F10772%2F0 )

French Hobie Cat National Championship

13-16 May 2005 - Mandelieu-La Napoule

87 Hobie Cats (39 Hobie 16, 14 Hobie 16 spi, 25 Tiger, 6 Dragoon, 2 Max and [color:"red"] one FxOne) [/color] gathered on the beautiful bay of Cannes for the great annual rendez-vous of the French Hobie Cat Class Association.


Yes [color:"red"] ONE [/color] FX-one was at the French nationals of the year 2005 (that was 2 weeks ago !)

How about 75 kg (A-cat/M18) or 107 (F16) to say a 130 to 140 kg boat ? (I-17 and FX-one are more like 140 -150 kg)

I can tell you from direct experience that you do really notice the 107 to 140 kg difference; let alone the 75 kg to 140 kg. Yep, I handled the FX-one both on sea and on land several times. Yes, it is a nice boat but don't hold your breaths; it won't break any records.


Now I will probably get accused of pushing my point here, but aren't we looking at this from completely the wrong way ?

It is not interesting to compare the I-17 and FX-one to one another. They are far to similar in every respect; and quite frankly they are both more than a little bit away from the frontline of catamaran design.

Yes the M18 is alot more advanced but for 22.000 Euro's (ex sails ?) it better be. And then still, its laminate work maybe beyond comparison and so too its mast but the BOAT design belongs more to the early 90's era than the the 00's of the new millenia. Hull shapes did progress a little bit over the last decade.

Both the Shadow and F16's are alot more interesting (sorry); both less than 14.000 Euro's when fully fitted (= including sails), a fraction slower than the M18 but also alot more likely to form world spanning classes; and lets not forget both are about 40 kg lighter than the 17 footers and more performant as well.

Personally (but I'm definately biased as a F16 owner) I don't really see the M18 justify its 8000+ Euro's higher price tag here. Especially not when you have to practically beg to be able to file the order form with their customer support department.

Clearly Sarah has chosen the M18 as her next boat, but I would have kept those 8000 Euro's in the bank for other enjoyable goods like new videogames and electronics.

Well, "I would" is not the right describtion, actually I HAVE kept it in the bank as I'm sailing F16.


Wouter

Boat is rather rare and Marstrom doesn't do much in the way of promotion or class building with respect to this boat.

The Tornado and M20 get all the attention.

Wouter

Hey Wouter,

The sky is the limit. It must be that the most expensive boats are the best. What I meant is that if you're still in the process of learning and still are making mistakes then the choice for a much more available boat or parts is making more sense. Especially when you're using carbon materials. In the beginning you want to sail and not wait on getting your boat ready.

With that in mind I think Sarah's first thoughts on a HC FX-One or an Inter 17 is a very wise choice.

And if you realy want to learn sailing well, go sail a HC 16. That boat really forces you to sail in an optimal way.
Experienced sailors will notice the difference between 10 kilo's of weight. True.

See you next week !!!!!

My latest cat (good to sail single handed untill 5 Bt) :

Hey Boomer,





Funny thing is that. In the end it all comes down to a skillful design of a boat. The right use of low-tech materials but with highly skilled knowlegde will easily win over High Tech material without skilled designing.

I still think it to be a big joke that an all carbon and no limits boat has failed to win Texel for several years now. Each time it was run down by Tornado's, F18's and F20's which are still using alot of aluminium and plain glass with vinylester resin. So carbon, epoxy and titanium did not produce the result that was hoped for. It made a dent in the bank accounts but not really anywhere else.





Indeed ! I actually agree with that. I just happen to disagree that the 17 foot singlehanders of the big catamran building companies are more abundant than the A-cats or Taipans. Over 300 Taipans were build and sold. Fleets of them are found in all continents of the world except Africa and south-america. The number of A-cats is a multiple of that again. In all honesty, I don't see any signs that suggest that the same numbers were ever sold of the modern 17 footers. So which are the more available classes ?






I personally think that carbon fibre is highly overrated. I know of a few good applications, but apart from that you can just as well use more normal material without a significant loss of performance.




Will you be sailing the H16 ?

Wouter

That picture just looks WAY too cold...I must intervene....last weekend...F18s can be single handed too! : (photo by Bonnie):

Quote:

I personally think that carbon fibre is highly overrated. I know of a few good applications, but apart from that you can just as well use more normal material without a significant loss of performance.

Advanced composites really do offer performance and durability advantages. But since they are so strong in terms of UTS, Young's modulus and the like, it's tempting for designers to use half as much material saving half the weight at 'equivalent' strength, theoretically, anyway. The downside is, among other things, that such structures lack damage tolerance, which is something very important in a boat which will get wet. Trimming 'only' 25% of the weight is furthermore less attactive than trimming 50% of the weight; especially when the latter costs more than the former, both options being much more costly than conventional composite.

It's all about the cost. Carbon is manuactured in two competing processes, pitch and PAN- both of which are costly and expensive and will not likely get cheaper and easier any time soon. Carbon prices are now as low now as they have ever been in real dollars; certainly a lot cheaper than the dark days of the eighties when the aerospace industry essentially contracted for the world's entire output of carbon fiber for about a decade. The simplest 4oz twill cloth cost more than $50/yard back then. The trouble is, that same scenario could happen again as civillian aerospace is using unprecedented amounts. Both Boeing and Airbus have major oders now for their latest planes; we'll just have to see what happens.

I think the future lies with basalt fiber technology. Basalt is volcanic rock. It can be melted and extruded into fibers in a process much like conventional 'e' glass. The thing is, basalt fiber has about 80% of the performance(UTS, modulus) of regular carbon fiber (or just better than s-2 glass), but at a cost only a little higher than e glass; way les than s-2 glass, let alone carbon.

http://www.plasticstechnology.com/articles/200406cu2.html

The world output of this little known fiber is still tiny compared to other reinforcements. But as more production come on line, I can't help but wonder how boats will again be transformed the way they were when the industry switched from wood.

http://www.globalcomposites.com/news/news_fiche.asp?id=212&

Stay Tuned...

Jimbo

Cool picture Jake,
Do you always have a boat following you around to get these pics?
Rob V.
Panama City
Nacra 5.2

Wouter: "Clearly Sarah has chosen the M18 as her next boat" well thats not really the case .. I must admit that the M18 is looking really good right now but im actually still considering the FX-one and maybe a Blade F16.

Jake: Great picture

Jimbo: Interesting news

Boomer: I already have a HC 16 (Well actually its my dad's) that im practicing on.

carlbohannon : Thank you soo much for the contacts

Well...no. Not always . But I was sailing in a single handed distance race at our club and Bonnie was tooling around taking pictures of the fleet in a johnboat.

You might also consider the Shadow, its speed is about the same as an FX-One but with 95kg its considerably lighter (Good for righting).
http://www.swell-catamarans.co.uk/boats/default.asp?id=2&ty=2
http://www.swell-catamarans.co.uk/gallery/default.asp?id=7&al=2

Okay, I think I will send you a private message using this forums PM feature. If you can't read or access it than please tell me so.

Wouter

Hi Sarah,

Just out of curiosity: what have you decided to buy?

Bart

I havent been able to reply to any messages sent to me ... sry about that but Ive been really sick lately

as for what I decided on .. well I've tried contacting Marstrom for what feels like forever .. but I still havent gotten a reply and Im really getting frustrated .. someone suggested a customized Morelli/Melvin A2 cat .. with additions such as "widening it to 9' and adding a spinnaker system" ...... its cheaper than the M18 and frankly Im quite fed up with Marstrom .... A customer shouldnt have to beg to get a catamaran ... especially not with the price they charge.

so what do you guys think about the A2? would it be too much for me to handle if im going to solo? Should I just continue to try and get a M18?

well as always your advice is greatly appreciated

Thank you,
Sarah

I would suggest that you start with a normal A-cat, and then add spi later on. They have successfully added spi on most brands of A-cats but if you are concerned about the structure of the boat I would recommend the Marstrom A-cat.

Mitch Booth took an Marstrom A-cat platform, added a bigger mast, bigger mainsail, double trapeze and 40 kg of led and raced it as an F18 ht. Nothing broke on the boat!

I've been sailing with spi on my A-cat for a while now and it is a real work out to sail with it. At 8 knots of wind you are trapezing both upwind and downwind. I haven't tried higher wind strengths yet but that will be interesting!

Unless you are a very experienced cat sailor I would recommend that you start without spi to learn the boat.

/hakan

Hakan

What size kite is that ?

Looks good!

The spi size is 15 sqm and it is made by Landenberg.
8.1 meter luff length.

/håkan

A2 price without shipping costs = 21.000 US$ (just platform, mast and a mainsail)

source : http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...0348&page=&view=&sb=5&o=


Adding a spi package will add at least a 1000 US$ if you assemble it yourself. Proably 1500 US$ if you order it ready to go.

sub total : 21.000 + 1000 = 22.000 US$

Than add something for your custom order in widening the platform. Your guess is here as good as mine ?


The A2 looks to become as expensive as the M18.


Making the A2 9 feet wide ? And loosing 40 % of the stiffness in the proces ? That is unless you have them redesign and beaf up BOTH beams by 40 % as well. All to keep the mean beam from flexing like a twig under the mast load or having the hulls walk over the waves independently from one another. Same for the rear beam (mainsheet load). Then of course the 3 mtr long circular traveler system will be fun to source and implement. It will even arc as far forward from the rearbeam as 0.40 to 0.50 mtr. Leaving less than one mtr space between traveller rail and side stay ? This boat is quickly becoming a complete custom job with an the now required custom trampoline, custom stays, custom tiller bar and tiller extension, rudders with adjusted Ackermann bend. Making a boat 0.45 mtr wider does impact significantly on many other components.

Will add some extra cost to the overal price I'm sure.

All that and then hoping to make use of the builders warranty as well ? With the much increased loads on the beam landings and such.

And have it delivered soon.

Who is giving you this great advice ?


I'm sure I will get completely flamed for posting this, both publically and privately, but somebody is not offering you his advice but his personal day dream. What ever it is it, it not a practical way to a new boat.

I know because I did revamp an existing design to a similar extend and did all the calculations on it. It took me years to complete the project.





Well, what can I say here. Maybe you should just e-mail all the other builders of reasonable spinnaker equipped singlehanders and see who wants your order the most.

Afterall the differences between an Australian Flyer, the M18, The A2, The Blade F16 and Taipan F16 aren't THAT big.

If none of these react in time than walk over to the Hobie dealor, order an FX-one and never look back. One bird in the hand is better than 10 in sky.


Wouter