Chuck did specifically ask us to let him know what we wanted from the race since the race is, in his words, "for the sailors". I think this is beneficial for us to discuss what we want.

I agree with what John said. This year I think a 16 foot design would have made the trip. However we were blessed with some pretty good weather, nothing to heavy. That said, places like Jacksonville Jetty were still pretty hairy (in sea-state) despite the amicable conditions with the weather. I would not want to be on a 16 foot boat when it gets knarly out there.

If enough F16 were to compete in this event, im in.

Wouldnt it be feasable to score it, like any other event. Five or more have a class? everything else is open?
F20
F18
F16 <-- just throwing this into the pot
Open class, everything else that doesnt fall into the formula classes.

Hey Jake -

Chuck has said that from the beginning, but there is only so much he is willing or able to do. In a few cases, sailors went to him with ideas and were told "no," (e.g., the Eagle). I agree with most of his "no" decisions, again, not that it matters - I think the spirit of "a sailor's race" is great, but once the wall of reality is reached, you have to climb it or change direction - it is frequently easier to walk around walls. All of us, including Chuck, know what happens when the event goes to Fantasy Island...

I would not be opposed to sailing an F18 in this race. Even if it gets hairy, we can definitely 'survive'. It's simply a matter of knowing how hard you can push the boat in the given sea state and weather conditions. The I20 has beneficial capabilities in that it is difficult to press it too hard until the wind gets over 15 and the waves pretty tall.

While I would still be open to sailing an F18 in this event, I would want to be part of a significant F18 fleet doing so. This way I wouldn't feel to bad getting to the beach each night while the bigger boat teams are on shore showered, dressed, sipping champaign, and being hand fed grapes and strawberries by scantily clad women.

What!? You missed all that?

Hi Mark
had to check the definition of the ersatz proposal mentioned-

er·satz [ ér z&#63472;ts ]
adjective =artificial: imitating or presented as a substitute for something of superior quality ( disapproving )
[Late 19th century. From German, literally “replacement.”]

The problems with the ersatz handicap class as applied to a 500 or 1000 mile race are numerous .
How do any explain a handicap rating system to the general public viewing it on OLN tv ,--it sounds something like --well er this boat came in 10 minutes ahead of this boat here and although the boat 10 minutes behind has more sail area and is larger and wider the current buoys racing teams that sail it, sail it slower, so it,s boat rating is slower because it is based on their time ,not this skippers time ,-but other skippers in races during the season of various abilities sailing around buoys ,-not 100 miles at a time on the Atlantic Ocean ,--so this boat actually wins the race according to this handicap rating system ,----the responce is generally ,-that seems very unfair to the sailors that sailed well and finished ahead.
An Ersatz {poor substitute} type of race result,-and negative perceptions to the general public result .

The Texel race was brought up -It uses Texel rating based on design measurements ,but though originally intended currently has no windspeed factor to help regulate design factors that vary in wind speed such as board -non board types -and also as per any rating has inherant mathimatical flaws based on averaging requirements and the need for simplicity.
Accepting averaging flaws in any type of rating system ,-then -A pure simple rating based in design measurement ,but only equating the basic box of L B W and sail area in matimatical coresponding curve is needed ,- .-Texel and ISAF approach this -Texel with its power formula of weight length and sail area
,http://www.sailingproshop.com/texel.htm
-beam is needed ,-add spin number ,-then stop there without the added numerous minor design calcs ,and use actual weight -sail area and length -not rated w sa l -,-pure and simple .
To this basic box design rating curve based on L B W and SA then add your preferance of actual finish times and race results , but qualify this with international results and larger pool of results over longer time frames with some means of rating skippers on them and factoring this average into the basic design base rating .
Continue to use the P-rating scale of equating time to distance traveled ,-and use windspeed ,- only 2 -trap non trap wind speed conditions .
-This type of COMBINATION rating system would be an acceptable means of scoring a seperate open class run independantly only if numbers are not suffecient in classes .
{just my 2 cents }

For a 500 mile or 1000 mile race event ,--for any major chapionship event -for Alter cup ,-for regional and national events --for Olympics ,-or anywhere major racing occurs --classes are used for many good reasons.-

Helping define and promote classes for the 06 Tybee of similar design types and comperable actual speed is the intent.
Formula classes of 16 --18 and 20 in seperate staggered starts off the beach with an open first across the line wins class of up to 22 ft may be one solution.

The 05 Tybee 500 race rules stated the open class limit with Texel number ,-this is another good means of defining an open class again started seperately off the beach at a latter time with seperate scoring on a first across the line wins result .

thanks again Mark -always enjoy your opinions ,though not from a distance racing perspective with no interest partisipation in it , and again mean no disrespect or to any very dedicated people that work so hard to maintain current rating systems ,-the intent is to conserve the best aspects of them and combine them to a potentially more internationally and universally accepted rating system .
Rating has always been a very difficult problem and why class racing is generally preferred per ISAF statement .
CDR

Because if you own a hobie 20, nacra 6.0 and can buy some new sails that you were going to have to buy anyway and compete with the growing (in Texas) I20 fleet, without the expense of a new boat, then lets race.

"If enough F16 were to compete in this event, im in. "
Robi, if they allowed F16, I`d be willing to crew, especially if it`s the whole 1000.

Suggest F16 start 20min. ahead of F18, F18 start 20 min. ahead of F20, would bring the fleet closer together at finish, just a thought.

The F20 fleet could still be the glory boys, and would most likely finish first anyway.
Overall winner could still be the first F20, just to keep scoring simple, no handicaps, just score each fleet separately on first-in-wins basis. If there`s a class of anything (ie I-20 / Tornado / Blade), have class winners too. I know it might water down the OD concept a bit, and having multiple winners might confuse the spectators, but not if you explain the concept to them that similar performance boats are grouped in classes - even I understand it.
It makes more sense than golf, and people watch that on TV!

I don`t see the need for any additional support crew other than additional rescue facilities / spotters on the beach, which you`d need anyway if the I-20 fleet miraculously doubled next year anyway (unless the organiser`s intention is to keep it small so it`s easier to manage, which I`d fully understand.)

It depends on the desirable outcome - a 10 boat fleet that attracts a few spectators, or an 40-50 boat fleet that should have a greater chance of getting higher media attention and a higher chance of future growth.
Even as a keen catsailor, I never checked in on the event web-site once this year as the event lacked variation in teams (all from US I think ?), only 2 open-class boats. Not the organiser`s fault at all, in fact they allowed other classes but these never pitched, so perhaps I`m wrong altogether. Perhaps opening up the event to many classes will still only attract 10-12 I-20`s, but then maybe it`s worth a try.
Any decision by the organisers on which class/ classes would have to be made public straight after the end of this years event to give wanna-be`s a year to plan their attempt, even more so for the international teams.

Steve

Its only a matter of showing them someone on a F16 is willing to do it.
For the race organizers this can be a hint hint.

Offer taken lets see what happens next.

Always excellent comments ,-thanks -
Many recall the very good sailing team from S A in the 2001 1000 mile race ,-they won the last leg in severe conditions with 50 mph winds that leg --whew ,--all to windward ,--this after a severe downwind leg around Hatteras with numerous teams flipping repeatedly and one being dismasted ,---hope your able to race it in the near future ,-that is one main reason for the post ,-in hopes that those with the desire may connect with others that have the boat and desire ,-in the hopes of increasing the number of teams entered for the 06 event .
Jake and I put a last minute team together this year with available boat from Mike and TEAM SAILMAX .---though highly recommend interested teams begin planning now .
I hope that we hear from several committed teams that state their preferance for a particular boat ,-Mentioned previously were past winners of the event who had sponsor problems that planned to race a Tornado this year ,---that early commitment and entered teams leads to more competition and more teams . Mentioned also was the return of one or more Aussie teams in 06 ,-this is great news for the 06 event .

hope to see you on the start line in the near future -
CDR

Hi Carl,
Must be referring to Alan Lawrence & crew Johnny van der Vyfer. Alan sails Hobie Tigers with Gordon McGillivray, who was their ground crew that year, the last W1000. They do like good breeze(though 50mph is a bit better than "good" ), and win most Tiger events in SA.

Also had Duncan Ross in the last Atlantic 1000, think he came 2nd overall in both events combined ? Have never met him though, born South African but spends most of his time sailing in Europe I think.

If they opened it up to F16, my chance of attending would be at about 30-50%, better than the 0% it currently stands at.
Perhaps the organisers should hold a poll : If the following classes were allowed , would you attend ? (those who vote "yes" can deposit a non-refundable entry fee / deposit into their account, would make organising the event easier. )

Steve

Hello Grob

It seems keeping an open class is a good concept , the concern is support , commitment from teams ,and getting numbers of open category boats on the starting line .

I,m all for an open class scored seperately on a first across the line wins basis ,started seperately at a latter time off the beach .

As inventor you may appreciate the earlier 1000 mile event boat entrants in 87 when rules were only limited to a 20 ft length .--We had boats with 10 ft racks on each side which were very fast , quick math reveals that a 200 LB crew an additional 10 ft out on a rack provides 2,000 ft Lbs of added righting leverage .-Recall another entry ,-a SC 20 with 40 ft wing mast .-A 12 ft beam Hurricane showed with adjustable side stays that allowed the mast to be adjusted and canted .-I built a planning hull 12 ft beam cat with canting rig ,-though unsuccessfull -great fun ,and fasinating learning experience, though very humbling .

I,m not sure if this type of wide open class should be run again , it may be a sub topic for discussion as well , though think the preferance is towards existing available open category cats like the Tornado -Marstom 20 CFR -AND other larger beam lighter weight cats up to a specified L and or T-rating number as per 05 rules.

Take care -

Carl

Carl:
Do you think a F16 sloop can be considered for this event? or is this way out of the question?

Hey Carl

I believe I said for the Tybee use

F20 Class. Set at the max dimensions of the I20.
expect few boats other then I20's.

HT20 Class using an HT rule that builders have yet to agree upon or one created by the Tybee organizors. This class would suck up the M20, Eagle 20 etc etc and run boat for boat as well.

FYI... Texel now uses 2 ratings... essentially a low wind and a high wind rating.

just my 2 cents -yes ,-though have not sailed a true F-16 currently with kite.
I,ve sailed various 16s and do own a SC 15 which is a joy to sail ,-I love taking it out when there are high winds and storm warnings on the lake ,--and yes have pitchpoled it numerous times ,--great fun ,-it is very capable ,but slower .
Rules require 2 as crew -so crew weight becomes much more a proportional factor , The Atlantic Ocean can be an awfully unforgiving environment to boats and crews unfamiliar with it and unprepared to race 100 mile legs on it . Most veteran racers choose the 20 ft Length category for good reason .

Good thoughts as always John ,
I did miss the countdown this year and did recall events of years past some mornings before the starts which you and team T B were a large part of ,-Nice to see Alex entered in the Texas race and also team Tybee again ,-think the Texas race has had the Arc 21 in years past sail well and be comperable to the I-20 .

There is no interest in quote" the fantisy Island scenario"
and as noted think 16s would have a difficult time in the extreme conditions the Atlantic Ocean can bring.
Think the I-20 and perhaps comperable 20s would make a good class for the event ,-along with a seperate class in an open category for the lighter weight larger beam CATS.
The intent here is per Tybee organizer-s communica to go ahead and have a constructive diologue on the subject .
My hope is to hear from several committed TYBEE teams ON THEIR BOAT INTENTIONS AND PREFERENCES with the hopes of getting as many as possible on the starting line as well as making a boat choise myself for the 06 event which as you know includes boat tuning -training -budgetary concerns -potential sponsors etc .

With LEEs passing Neil is the main race official that faithfully waits until all boats are finished and has been since the 98 race I believe, often late into the early morning hours with our eternal gratitude .

Your concern for the race organizational aspects is as always admirable ,-and believe we should all do what we can to help improve the event and sport ,-constructive diologue is part of that equation .

take care
Carl

F16 sloop is a two person crew.

IT is also very good to know, that it can be considered.

Robi, I'm not sure if your question was concerning eligibility under the rules or just the practical feasibility. As I think someone else mentioned, the current rules are actually quite open: 2-person, production catamarans up to 20 feet, spinnaker rigged by the factory, Texel rating 102 or below.

Currently, I believe Texel has F16 2-up at 103, but I posted a query to Wouter about this over on the F16 forum, as he had previously indicated that F16 was at 102.

In general I think distance racing in an F16 is a pretty interesting prospect, though I suspect folks might want to test that concept with something a little gentler than the Tybee.

Mark.