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Tybee 500 and little boats like F16 [Re: ] #49890
05/25/05 02:38 PM
05/25/05 02:38 PM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I like to do sail aways on my boats and have done a few of them; combined with some distance racing. My experience on the F16 (despite still being somewhat limited) is that the speed of the boat is not a problem. As someone else already said, the best I-20 crew and worst I-20 are seperated by several hours. We must all realize that a very good I-20 crew and a very good F16 (or F18) crew WILL NOT be seperated by more than 30 minutes after 10 hours of sailing. The issue is far more between good and bad crews that between 20 and 16 foot boats. It is not like teh worst I-20 crew is hours behind the best I-20 and that the best 16 foot crew is yet again hours behind the worst I-20 crew.

Having said this I still don't think that the F16 is a particulary good platform for a Tybee 500. The significant difference between a 20 ft boat and small boat like the F16 is not the ability to perform OR surviving but rather the demand made on the concentration of the 16 foot crew. It is undeniable that a shorter hulled boat takes more concentration to make it perform optimally. It is more sensitive to steerage and control than a bigger and longer boat. I'm sure an F16 can handle the Tybee 500 legs and the atlantic ocean. These boats over a very wide range of control and are easily depowered. HOWEVER, I'm not that certain that its crews can sustain the required concentration for so many long legs after one another. The first days will be alright but then fatique and possibly lack of sleep will deteriorate the level of concentration that these short boats require. A 20 ft is just easier to sail in this respect.

Last year I did a distance comparable to Texel. One that went 11 miles out to sea as well. We had big wind and big swell with nasty short chop on top of it. The boat handled all without a complaint; we (the crew) however were beat by the end of the race (3 hours). The feel of agility and quick responsiveness is great on any bouy race course, but it becomes tiring in any serious long distance race.

My advice to any short hulled sailor is to become one with the boat before attempting a long distance with rough conditions on these short hulled boats. You must know the boat so well that it doesn't require much effort from you to sail/race it. On these boats you must beware that fatique will grid down your concentrations and that a vicious cicle is lurking. Loss of concentration due to fatigue => makign mistakes requiring excessive energy to correct => more fatigue => more loss of concentration => etc.

Now I really don't believe doing a distance race on a 16 foot (or F16) is dangerous or impossible, but one does need to really prepare himself for it and understand the drawbacks of a short hulled design. Compare it to doing the canonball run in a Covette or a boosted mini-cooper. Both are equally fast and in principle equally safe but the mini-cooper with its short wheel base is more demanding (nervous) to drive at full potential for long periods of time.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tybee 500 and little boats like F16 [Re: Wouter] #49891
05/25/05 03:09 PM
05/25/05 03:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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Interesting comments, Wout... I could agree in principle with the concentration aspect. That's what distance races boil down to: how well a crew can stay focused.

Even on shorter distance events, the wind pattern varies (sometimes significantly) which can dramatically affect performance. From what I've seen, a well sailed 16 could keep up with a 20 in certain conditions. The variety of conditions found in a long distance (greater than 50 miles) usually widen the performance gap, alluding to John's comments regarding more work by the RC to keep track of everyone.

Not to dissuade anyone from participating in distance events like Tybee 500, but look at the *uncorrected* results from smaller distance races (like those I mention below). Most, if not all, of those races are sailed by experienced people. Even so, extrapolating the time differences over a period of 5 days shows some significant time discrepancies.

A staggered start is an interesting thought. However, using the Mug Race as an example, these starts have some challenges of their own. Conditions change throughout the day, and a "set" starting time would expose each sailor to different conditions (eg, morning starters would have to bob for a while waiting on the breeze, only to be run over by the bigger boats that start after the breeze fills in)

To go off on a tangent .... Robi - if you're really interested in distance stuff, how about Steeplechase, Hogsbreath 100, Macho Man, or even Hiram's Haul? Those would be excellent primers for something like Tybee 500 or A-1000. All require 2-up crews, and are either 1 or 2 day races. This would give you a good idea of what could feasably happen at Tybee.


Jay

Re: cats - [Re: Mark Schneider] #49892
05/25/05 05:44 PM
05/25/05 05:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
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Hey Mark
Thanks for the Texel update ,knew that the author had originally intended 2 windspeeds ,-great to hear they have been implimented
http://www.brandingsport.nl/index.html

It is conjecture to state {few will show} ,We do not know how many may show given an interesting larger similar Formula class oportunity to race within -and challenging events like the TYBEE 500 to race in --few I-20s did show this year , In MI locally it seems most are going to F-18 racing on Nacras F-18S and Hobie Tigers.

If any look to the great links here on catsailor ,then purely cat pages and scroll down they will see some 72 web sites and organizational events,- regional organizations,- and fleet links to Hobie class racing .

This is still the largest contingent of catsailors ,mainly dedicated to class racing ,-now experiencing Formula class racing .

It would seem to survive the current existing 20 sailors would encourage and promote a similar working Formula class based on similar I-20 specs as proposed or else inevitabley let go and allow them to go the way of so many other dead boat classes .
This has been the intent of F-20 to help promote good racing and events to race within on current existing 20s either in existing form or modified to a max class specification of matching L B W and sail area.


If not then it is time for this sailor to purchase a new 20 and seek others that wish to race similar larger beam lightweight 20s in the hopes of getting a large class on the start line for the 06 Tybee 500 and numerous other events in and work on a future lightweight larger beam F-20 class .

Carl





Re: cats -looking inward not out ward [Re: sail6000] #49893
05/25/05 11:55 PM
05/25/05 11:55 PM
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Posts: 576
BobG Offline
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Carl maybe an immediate solution can be found to condense another race alltogether within this race.There a lot of wannabee racers/adventurists myself included that probably do not have a boat that could hold up for a complete week of pounding but maybe a few legs. Or cannot afford a week off for whatever reason.(I propose but do not have all the details, a race that will put more money in the pot,pull more boats and therefore maybe creating more activety and interest as the race proceeds up the coast). If there was another start with the existing I20/super-boat group of 410lb+ f20 and even the f16/f18 even H16 could do it boats for 2 or 3 legs.Maybe part of the Endurance series open fleet.Which will also accomodate some of the I20 sailors that miss some of the other parts of this series.(This is only an example).The highlight will still be focused on the Tybee, the other particepants would enhance it.Also another set of legs could be done in the OBX in the same manner. Just a thought,of course the easiest thing is to just say screw all that and just get a I20 .But The appeal of being there right in the action for many of us that have boats for a couple of legs is very tasty.

Re: cats -looking inward not out ward [Re: BobG] #49894
05/26/05 01:06 AM
05/26/05 01:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL, USA
L
Lance Offline
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Palm Harbor, FL, USA
I think what is important is where we want to go with this race. Do we want an event to promote our sport to the masses or do we want a semi-extreme event that is more accessable for the average sailor to participate in. If we want to make waves with the general public then the race needs to be 1000 miles with one design or a single formula class boat with the entries being sailed by the "rock stars". This will generate the most publicity and allow for big sponsorship and TV coverage. Otherwise, To keep this as an obtainable event for the above average sailor to participate in different classes could be allowed to allow a larger fleet. Whether it's this race or another I think we need that extreme, rock star, big money sponsored, tv covered race so our sport has a reason to be covered by the media. You would think the manufacturers could eat the depreciation on a few boats they supply and that some of the big suppliers of parts could pony up some $ for a prize package and other expenses. Harken, Ronstan, Murrays, Hobie, Nacra, etc... have made a mint on catsailors over the years, they should be able to see the benefits of sponsoring a race like this. With all of the new sports channels out there TV coverage should be fairly easy to obtain if they feel it is exciting enough.
I also think that the minimum size should be 20ft. This is a race in the Atlantic and the weather can turn very extreme very quickly and the sailors are often several miles out. When the waves get big the F16's and F18's are out of their element and sailor safety should be the number one consideration. I think the 20 footers provide the best ocean sailing ability and safety to the sailors.
But whatever the final results are I have always been and will remain a big fan of these distance races. I will make sure I get over to see at least 1 or 2 legs next year.


Lance
Taipan 5.7 USA 182
Palm Harbor, FL
Re: cats -looking inward not out ward [Re: Lance] #49895
05/26/05 08:05 AM
05/26/05 08:05 AM
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Posts: 576
BobG Offline
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Lance I respect your opinion and your view is the accepted one.This idea, the one about the rock stars and a few new teams has been going on for a while there has not even been consistant local coverage in this area and this is the start, there are cat and sailboat dealers that do not realize the event is even on the way. Sailing is right up there with Polo,everybody knows someone is doing it but who cares.Thats what you get when you do the same thing year after year,"The same thing".People watch and support sports for a number of reasons.It is something we can not do but respect.It is handed down maybe through the family. It is cool and gains acceptance with peers. It is what the latest fad is.It pays money.There is a nice tidy turnout at most regattas and expenses are generally covered and most everyone has a good experience.If we want the mega turnouts though like Texel which is a one leg event (I think)than its the "Mad mad mad mad world" style,early Worrell type any thing goes type excitement (not boats) that could make it happen.Chuck is a great guy to keep this going for the sailors and that is what the is for the sailors.

Re: cats -looking inward not out ward [Re: BobG] #49896
05/26/05 08:08 AM
05/26/05 08:08 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
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MI

Think you speak for numerous sailors that would really enjoy being part of this event .

The race and weather this year was very kind and it was a very easy 5 days of racing . The best way to race is connect and team up with others that have similar interest and of course practise this season in buoys and entering the numerous shorter distance race events available .

Teams take a small time penalty when changing crews but this type of team stratetgy would allow 4 or 5 team crew to race 2 or 3 days each to finish the event .

Suggest that others interested contact one another on the private e-mail available here on catsailor ,--or post the intent or wish to race on the Tybee distance race heading section during the season .
Jake and I entered in the last few weeks only with an available boat generously offered by Mike and the SAILMAX TEAM .---So the example of how the site helps diologue and communication to connect boats crews and new teams together , that and attending local events and connecting with other race enthusiasts there .

Hope that is helpfull and we see you on the start line in the near future .

Carl

Re: cats -looking inward not out ward [Re: Lance] #49897
05/26/05 08:25 AM
05/26/05 08:25 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
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MI

Good ideas ,-think the event in 1000 mile or 500 mile distance has always had room for the top -rock stars in the lead pack ,-and also the regular sailor who just loves the sport but has limited time and funds and not as much opportunity to race and get good ,I,ve been both --often in the same event -Any sport requires practise to maintain skill level and improve .

Highly recommend if you are planning to attend the race and have a good cat sailing background offering your expertise as gr crew for a team .-they generally provide a place to sleep and meals with the race etc etc .It is the best way to really learn about this type of racing and all it requires .
Interestingly Mike in SAILMAX now one of the {rockstars} teaming with David ,-both excellent sailors ,-was 4 years ago kind enough to be gr crew for David and I in the 1000 mile race ,-from gr crew to a good chance of winning this year .-Mike also provided an extra boat this year that enabled Jake and I to race .--good side human interest story of the event.
http://www.sailmax.biz/

Re: cats & classes teams would like -for 06 TYBEE [Re: pitchpoledave] #49898
05/26/05 08:39 AM
05/26/05 08:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
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MI

Hi Dave
Hope LK Ontario is warming up ,--recall sailing the Hobie 18 Worlds there in the 80s -Toronto is a great city .

I,m one that owns an I-20 but would prefer a different hull type for distance racing in seas but with similar speed and matching sail plan of the I-20 -
Numerous racing sailors would modify their existing 20 if they could be assured of good class racing and events to enter like the TYBE 500 ,-this event could be the catalyst and motivation for a F-20 class in NA .

The list of existing 20s is here ,-and again the largest untapped continent of sailors is still among H-class ranks ,-that along with existing % in other brand class categories makes for a very large potential pool of racing F-20 TEAMS.
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

EC municipal regatta 1500 [Re: Lance] #49899
05/26/05 08:41 AM
05/26/05 08:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
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Just another regatta.
Why limit it to 1000 miles and 1 team per boat?
How about some municipal rivalry, and 1500 miles.
Team Pensacola vs Team New York vs Team Savannah (Tybee Island) vs Team Sydney vs Team Amsterdam.
One year municipal resdidency is required.
The start could be in Key West, FL and end at Newport, RI (site of old AC).
For 1500 miles say 7 teams per city, where each team sails 215 miles, or 5 teams sailing 300 miles each.
Let's see whose city has bragging rights to the best beachcat sailors in the World.



(With every team racing for the pride of their municipality,
EC 1500 will ignite patriotism attracting support beyond racing’s traditional audience?)

Re: EC municipal regatta 1500 [Re: sail7seas] #49900
05/26/05 08:55 AM
05/26/05 08:55 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
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sail7:

That sounds like a nice idea, however logistically that would be a nightmare.

Re: EC municipal regatta 1500 [Re: MauganN20] #49901
05/26/05 10:02 AM
05/26/05 10:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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St. Louis, MO,
This past year the Tybee 500 invited basically all sailors including the F18's. There are hundreds of F18's around. Not one F18 team decided to enter the event this year. No Hobie 20's, No P19's, No boats that are really slower than an I20. We had one N6.0 which has been proven to be on par with the I20 on most points of sail. We had an M20 that is significantly faster than an I20 in many conditions.

What does this tell you?

It tells me that people enter with boats that have a shot at crossing the line first.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: EC municipal regatta 1500 [Re: Mike Hill] #49902
05/26/05 10:22 AM
05/26/05 10:22 AM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
This past year the Tybee 500 invited basically all sailors including the F18's.


I don't think that's a fair statement given the lack of information that was available about the race this past year. This year's competitors were predominantly made up of sailors that had competed at least once prior and/or knew enough people to know that the race was reliably happening. If I didn't know all you guys and stay as plugged into this scene, whether or not I was sailing F18 or I20, I would have trouble justifying the time, effort, and money on a campaign for something that didn't present a reliable and assured presence.

Last edited by Jake; 05/26/05 10:24 AM.

Jake Kohl
Re: cats & classes teams would like -for 06 TYBEE [Re: Jake] #49903
05/26/05 11:06 AM
05/26/05 11:06 AM
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Naples, FL
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Okay, Jake. Given your points regarding the lack of information, it looks like it boils down to marketing. How can the average club assist Chuck's efforts in getting the word out? If this is truely going to be a race for sailors, it would have to operate on a shoestring budget to keep costs down. So I'm thinking it's got to be a grass-roots marketing campaign...


Jay

Re: EC municipal regatta 1500 [Re: Jake] #49904
05/26/05 11:12 AM
05/26/05 11:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Jake....

Do you know that ANY event will reliably happen.... everyone is a volunteer. Should something happen to the lead dog.... if nobody else steps forward... the event is gone. What would you prefer... a great PR job with lots of web activity or the commitment of someone you trust and who has made good in the past that a race will happen.

Mike Hill's point is well made... You don't see many F18's at ANY of the multi day distance races...much less a 500 mile event. For that matter you don't see many Hobie 16's doing one day 30 to 50 mile events either... Mike offers the best explanation.

To make the F18 class happen you will have to find a hard core of teams who just want to compete against those individuals and they happen to all race F18's or Hobie 16's whatever. The boat is a means to an end and never the lead reason ...Competition and the challenge drive participation.

Take Care
Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Cats, teams & Tybee 500 [Re: Jake] #49905
05/26/05 11:14 AM
05/26/05 11:14 AM
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Cape Town, South Africa
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Mike, point taken, doesn`t help opening up the race to folks if they don`t respond. Perhaps advertising or a lack thereof could have something to do with it, I don`t know (NOTE : This is NOT a criticism of the organisers on my part, I don`t know all the facts. What Jake says just made me think down this line.) Just looking to find ways of possibly ensuring better attendance at future events.
It would be great if the event attracted such an interest that entries were limited to the first 20 in each class !
So how do you guys motivate sailors of all the classes to become involved ?
I tripped over a thread on the 2003 Hobie 20 & Tiger Continentals, which had 23 Hobie 20`s and 17 Tigers, I`m sure if the race was actively marketed at these guys you could get better attendance, unless these classes have dried up in the last 2 years ? Hobie 21`s, SC-20`s, ARC-21`s, where are these guys ? Perhaps if the race was marketed and geared more toward the "above average weekend sailor" rather than the "rock-stars", it might get more attention. And the rock-stars would still be there anyway.

I guess you can put the offer out there, but if no-one takes you up on it, nothing good can come out of it.

Steve

Re: EC municipal regatta 1500 [Re: Mark Schneider] #49906
05/26/05 11:34 AM
05/26/05 11:34 AM
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League City, TX
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Quote
You don't see many F18's at ANY of the multi day distance races...much less a 500 mile event. For that matter you don't see many Hobie 16's doing one day 30 to 50 mile events either


Not completly true. This years Great Texas Catamaran Race will have at least three F18 boats, probably 4. The 2003 race was won by out local "Rock Star" John Tomko (with his wife Tiffany) on a Hobie Tiger. A Nacra F18 (Team T squared) was second in 2004.

We also have the Ruff Riders regatta which is over 50 miles and has attracted plenty of Hobie 16s

Chris.


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: EC municipal regatta 1500 [Re: flumpmaster] #49907
05/26/05 12:42 PM
05/26/05 12:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Yes that's fine.

But would you say that you have a hard core group of distance racers who want to race F18's and that you as a regatta organizer can count on at your event year after year?

If people are given a choice... they want the fastest ride available. (Mike Hill's point) Before Mike Worrel flamed out he believed that the events growth would only happpen on an 18 foot platform for two reasons. 1) Popularity in the EU. 2) More teams could form that fit the weight requirements of the 18 foot boats Ultimately he saw that growth was likely in the 18 foot boats.

Therfore he intended to force the issue by running the race exclusively on an 18ft platform. Many teams strongly disagreed and planned to sit out the W1000 and the Tybee 500 was born for these guys. In the end, Bimare made the best offer of charter boats with the 18HT and the rest is a sad history. The Tybee 500 continues on primarily focused on the 20 footers.

Have things changed?
Is there a ground swell to run the event on 18 footers?
Is there still a key core group insistent on 20 footers and opposed to the 18's?
Is there a groundswell to run the event with just one class to focus on.
Can the marketing work with several classes overlapping at the finish?










crac.sailregattas.com
Re: EC municipal regatta 1500 [Re: Mark Schneider] #49908
05/26/05 12:44 PM
05/26/05 12:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
You don't see many F18's at ANY of the multi day distance races


Great Texas has had (and probably will) had F18 turnout...Steeplechase had F18 turnout (I was on one of four)...Round the Island will have F18 turnout (I'm planning on it) and while RTI is not necessarily a two-day race, it has been everytime I've done it! ...etc.

Quote
Do you know that ANY event will reliably happen


Sure I do! I don't mean to critisize - I'm bringing this up only as it pertains to attendance. I don't fault the organizers but if you plan for people far away to attend your event, you need to have up-to-date information available as early as possible.

Plans did fall through for Chuck and gang which unfortunately left them not getting host hotels on the website until 3 or 4 weeks before the event. The actual start and finish line information didn't show up until two days before the race. All I saw for 11 months was a website with last year's information on it (including "Participating Teams") and then hear that half of what was originally planned was cancelled due to lack of attendance. The whole thing felt secretive and made me feel certain that we were going to get to Florida and have 5 boats to race against - or worse, that they were going to pull the plug at the last minute. Fortunately we were committed regardless as was everyone else that did compete (and we were very glad we did - it was a ball!).

All I'm saying is to take this year's lack of open class with the understanding that new people, people not fully in "the loop", and people from overseas would not have been enticed the amount information that was available prior to this year's event.


Jake Kohl
Re: EC municipal regatta 1500 [Re: Mark Schneider] #49909
05/26/05 12:48 PM
05/26/05 12:48 PM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
Therfore he intended to force the issue by running the race exclusively on an 18ft platform. Many teams strongly disagreed and planned to sit out the W1000 and the Tybee 500 was born for these guys.


Sorry - I re-read your post and I mostly agree....I mis-read it. It is noteable, however, that the Worrell was going to have a huge turnout on the 18HT just before it was cancelled.

Last edited by Jake; 05/26/05 12:51 PM.

Jake Kohl
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