| Re: Round Texel 2005 results
[Re: Phile]
#50818 06/16/05 03:06 AM 06/16/05 03:06 AM |
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... | I just read above that a boat was not insured and yet taking part in a club race - Hopw come ? I assume the rules are different at your club. At mine we MUST have insurance to be allowed on the water and if there is any damage, there should be a protest to determine fault. I saw a similar incident on a Laser, an old one T boned my buddies brand new boat, first time in the water, "too bad, that's racing" was all he got out of it! To get a lawyer involved would have cost more than a new Laser so nothing was ever done about it. That is also shocking, how can someone be so cavalier about it. My answer would have been "See you in the protest room", got proof of his fault and then got his insurance details etc. Shocking !
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: Round Texel 2005 results
[Re: Darryl_Barrett]
#50819 06/16/05 05:27 AM 06/16/05 05:27 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter OP
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | Many will call the next statement anti-americanism but there are two main streams of judiciary in the world. One based on the Angle-Saxon model (litigation) and the other is based largely on the French system of old. The last isn't suffering from litigation and here ill intend, malice or direct and glaring irresponsibility must be proven to be convicted. In some cases (SOME) official general responsibility may lead to guild but only in a few cases where the injured person had a obligation to follow.
Personally I'm rather happy with the French inspired system and I think the countries that are using it right now will do so for a long time to come.
WOuter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Round Texel 2005 results
[Re: Darryl_Barrett]
#50820 06/16/05 09:00 AM 06/16/05 09:00 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | I agree entirely Dingram, it's not my opinion but just the way it is becoming as concerns "litigation" today. Besides, your views are a little strange coming from the country that "invented" this system that seems to be pervading the whole worlds legal systems where some smart lawyer can sue anyone else for the blame of something that should not have been their responsibility in the first place (what the world needs is more lawyers??????) Just because the US pioneered litigation for no FREAKIN reason other than a payday, doesn't mean I like it. This is why my post was so hostile. I love living in the US but there are many things I don't like and do what I can to change. It just pisses me off to no end how quickly people want to blame someone or something for something they clearly had complete control over! The decision to sail or not sail is exactly one of those things! One last point... I don't blame the lawyers, I blame the scumbags the hire the lawyers! Rant off… for now
Last edited by dingram; 06/16/05 09:03 AM.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Round Texel 2005 results
[Re: Darryl_Barrett]
#50821 06/16/05 09:11 AM 06/16/05 09:11 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | I guess that's what we (should) have insurance for TIMBO, but even insurance companies will baulk at paying out for damage caused through (what they consider) recklessly "going out" in obviously dangerous conditions, (read your insurance policies small print) Okay how do you quantify "recklessly going out" or "obvious dangerous conditions" and who makes this assessment? The insurance company? That could be a little self serving!
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Round Texel 2005 results
[Re: Darryl_Barrett]
#50823 06/16/05 09:10 PM 06/16/05 09:10 PM |
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,012 South Australia Darryl_Barrett
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Posts: 1,012 South Australia | When you say that "there are two legal systems" Wouter" (forgetting for the sake of clarification on this point, Islam, China, Russia, and several other sovereign state and religious systems), the French and the Anglo Saxon systems, and that most countries follow one or the other, I have to add here that, although the US system may have "originally" been based on the Anglo Saxon system before the US constitution and their bill of rights were written, from that point on in "legal" time there has been one very important divergence that has created the grounds for this ability for "personal litigation" to grow within the US system at a far greater rate than throughout other countries who’s systems are also based on the "British" system. Within the US system the word "JUSTICE" appears, and that JUSTICE can be sought by any citizen of the USA wherever/whenever that citizen considers that they have been unjustly "set upon". As a consequence that legal system has been debating and exploring all the connotations of the effect of that concept ever since the formation of the USA as a sovereign state. As far as I am aware, in no other legal system based on the "Westminster" system does the written word "JUSTICE" even appear! All other Westminster systems proclaim to be the official organ to "UPHOLD and ADMINISTER" the LAW -vastly different from "JUSTICE". This variance creates a vast gulf between the practicing US system and the Westminster system used by many other countries. Mind you the French system was created by a group of blood thirsty “revolutionaries" who liked to go around cutting off the heads of anyone who they thought was a “POLITICAL” enemy, so does any one image that JUSTICE was foremost in the minds of the people who wrote the French legal code? | | | Re: Round Texel 2005 results
[Re: Darryl_Barrett]
#50824 06/16/05 09:34 PM 06/16/05 09:34 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Insurance companies being what they are, set the rules, they write the clauses, and they (mostly) decide whether or not a claim is justified, and being that it is in their self interests as to whether or not they "pay out" they are often a "fairly hard nut to crack". We (as the consummer) only have the choice of accepting their "policy" or rejecting it. If we reject it we have NO cover at all. If we accept it then we have to play by their rules. If there is another option tell me (other than NOT sailing at all) Darryl, I still think you have missed the point. It's your choice to sail or not. If you choose to sail then stand up and take responsiblity for your actions. If you get hurt or loose your boat it's on you! The organizers, the insurance company or God don't make your decisions, you do! So it's on you if you screw up! For those racers to get upset because they broke their boat going through the surf and then blame the RC for not calling the race is just (to use Wouter's description) STUPID! Every one of the Texel teams pushed their boat into the surf under their own free will. If you can't afford to break or loose your boat and you don't think your insurance company will pay out then your decision is easy and you have a tidy excuse for not sailing. Besides were talking about 60 mile weekend distance race here. Honestly I probably would have stayed on the beach if I were at Texel, but I sure as hell wouldn't want the race called because I pussed out! That's been my point all along. Regards, Dave
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Round Texel 2005 results
[Re: Darryl_Barrett]
#50826 06/17/05 04:08 AM 06/17/05 04:08 AM |
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... | Insurance companies being what they are, set the rules, they write the clauses, and they (mostly) decide whether or not a claim is justified, and being that it is in their self interests as to whether or not they "pay out" they are often a "fairly hard nut to crack". We (as the consummer) only have the choice of accepting their "policy" or rejecting it. If we reject it we have NO cover at all. If we accept it then we have to play by their rules. If there is another option tell me (other than NOT sailing at all) A fair number of UK policies have some clauses written into them; one I remember is that (my words) "the boat is not covered for damage sustained in a race started in above F6 bf"
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: Round Texel 2005 results
[Re: Darryl_Barrett]
#50827 06/17/05 06:09 AM 06/17/05 06:09 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter OP
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe |
Yes you are right, there more large streams in justice systems when including nations like China and systems like Islamic law. I should have specified my statement better. I was of course refering to the two main western lines of thought.
I agree on the differences of the US justice system to the Imperial (UK) system. You have a point there as well.
With respect to the French and the very popular French bashing. This is in contrast to your other comments. As if the US constitution was NOT written by revolutionaries and men who killed their politcial enemies (Brits and collaborators) or would sign a degree or ride out years later to kill some more natives. Lets face it, times in which such constitutions are written are always times of chaos and turmoil and this means the bad is present as well.
But maybe more importantly in this respect is that this French revolution of 1789 is TOO late. Most other European constitutions were already made by then. I was refering to the French systems of OLD. Meaning several hundred years before the 1789 French revolution and even as far back as Charles the Great (around 8th century AD).
But lets get back to sailing.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Round Texel 2005 results
[Re: Darryl_Barrett]
#50828 06/18/05 08:09 AM 06/18/05 08:09 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I think I had a good ins. policy, although I never tested it, from USAA insurance. I had to pay about double for the "racing" coverage, which they told me covered damage from colision or capsize, etc., hulls, mast, sails and equipment. I don't know if I would have had problems collecting if I had trashed the boat doing a Texel type race... Obvioulsly if you go out in those conditions you are accepting some of the blame. But the fact that many did survive, complete the race with no get, and there was a new record set, could work in your favor when trying to collect, I would hope. I only worry about collisions with another boat which is out of control. The best thing to do in that situation is find another skipper and tell him you will gladly crew for him, on HIS boat! Right Dave?? (re. Eustis a couple years ago, cold front) PS, Dave you need a refill on your 1design beers!!
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: Round Texel 2005 results
[Re: Wouter]
#50832 03/23/06 04:40 PM 03/23/06 04:40 PM |
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 2 PeteMcD
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stranger
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Posts: 2 | Round Texel 2005 results I came across this while looking for something else (as usual!), so am just adding a little info for the record... Wouter wrote -
The results are in :
ONLY 124 finishers out of 600 entries and about 2o0 starters !
This was due to some 125 boats (including ourselves alas!) missing the first &/or second gates at the north end of the island. I believe the marks were the 2m x 1m dayglo orange cylinders used for the Open, but we never glimpsed ONE! Wind-over-tide up at the lighthouse produced a very interesting sea state.... As sjon wrote it was a battle field.
Two F16's stayed on the beach choosing to not risk damaging their boats
Bart & Lonneke took a Hobie Tiger after helping us launch (and hurrooed their way past before Oudeschild). Pete and Dee McDowell on their Stealth F16 did succesfully negociate the surf and started the round. Not having sailed at Texel before we carefully followed advice from our NL friends - the main theme being 'arrive around an hour early at the start' ; this misses the last-minute-rush-& no-control boats. Presumably the surf got worse nearer to the start, we had more problems earlier in the week. Sadly they were seen pulling in at the harbour of Oude Schild that is on the other side of the island (at about 60 % of the race). It is not known why they pulled out of the race. No major damage was seen from the distance, maybe they decided that enough was enough. Will get back on this if I learn more. Yes, we were not really happy to continue, we already had some boat problems and in view of serious doubts as to 'sailing the course' as above, and capsising after running aground as well, it seemed sensible if rather unenterprising to pull into Oudeschild. I think because it is so shallow on the Waddensee side, the rudder foils were suffering from 'ground effect' lift & this was disconcerting... So...., we'll have to come back & do it all over another time! Regrettably I think this will be 2007 at the earliest. rgds Pete McD | | | Re: Round Texel 2005 results
[Re: PeteMcD]
#50833 03/24/06 05:04 AM 03/24/06 05:04 AM |
Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 915 Dublin, Ireland Dermot
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Posts: 915 Dublin, Ireland | Hiya Pete, It seems a bit odd me saying welcome to an American forum.(With me only down the road from you )If you are not going to Texel this year, you could maybe travel over to "The Mainland" and do one of the F16 events. Check out this thread http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1 JP and some of the F16 sailors have organised a F16 circuit. I hope to see you at the Northerns - are the Dutch contingent coming over ? Say Hi to Dee. See you soon
Dermot Catapult 265
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