Thanks John. Still waiting on an updated delivery date from Matt. Hoping it may be available in a few weeks.

Mark.

If I were you I would find the most active/competitive racing group in your area and buy one of whatever they are racing. If it is catamarans, I would buy the most popular boat in the group. One design racing is really how you learn how to go fast. If a boat in your one design class passes you really learn something. If a boat with a different handicap/configuration passes you learn nothing. One design also creates many more situations were you get to use tactics.

Matt

You well say that you can't afford new, or nearly new, so that shuts you down for the Formula boats. You also want performance in a used boat, that sends you to the NACRA/Performance Cat brand lines.

You can find a used NACRA for less than $5K and will be competitive, esp. with a new sail. My suggestions: 5.5 or 5.8 for your weight and strength. Prindle 19 is also not a bad choice, but as you get above 18ft, the boats are exponentially more of a hand-ful.

What's in YOUR area? Try 'em! See what you like from firsthand knowledge...

I disagree with this statement. The H20 ideal weight to sail is 315lbs. You aren't too far from that weight. You would have to carry some weight for a while but it would be a good boat to get going fast on.

Since an F18 I'm guessing is out of your price range. 8-12K? I would like to know what area you are from so that I have more info to go on. I always recommend getting the boat that the other hot sailors in the area are sailing and then comming up to speed with their help.

The 5.8 is also an excellent choice that can be had reasonably. Also if Hobie 16's are being raced in your area I would recommend that.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

Will they handle all AHPC products ?

It is about time we had a good AHPC dealor in the USA.

Wouter

I agree with Mike Hill. The Hobie 20 is not that far out of your weight range. (Personal disclaimer--I own one.) I have sailed them at minimum weight, me at 185, the crew at 110 and only 5' tall. We were quite fast under 12 mph of wind, competitive up to about 17 mph and at a real disadvantage after that to heavier crews who could keep the "power on" longer. I've sailed in up to 22-25 mph with that crew but we were not at all in the hunt. Still totally controllable with downhaul (cunningham) and traveler. If you and the crew have some leverage, you would be even better off. Leverage (height) is a real plus on the trapeze. Its the performance bargain. It looks good and sails fast enough to scare you.

David
H20

I'm in Minnesota. There is a fleet of Hobie 16's on a lake that is fairly closeby, but I'm kind of under the impression that they're not as high performance as I'd like. On most lakes in my area the clubs have an open cat fleet. The secondhand f18's that I've found are around 8-10k, which isn't out of my price range.

There's a group of formula 18s growing in western Wi & eastern Mn, mainly Nacra F18s & Hobie Tigers. There's a Formula 18 over at the Nacra dealer per his email for under $4500.00

Ted

If you are from Minnesota, and your loggin is WBYCSail I would have to assume you are from the White Bear Yacht Club. I am from the Bald Eagle Yacht Club, for those that don’t know that is just across the Highway from White Bear. My wife is the Commodore for BEYC, so I guess you could say I am involved.

There is a introduction to Catamarans on Lake Waconia this weekend (June 25 and 26) I will have my F18 there both days. There will also Nacra 20s, F17, N6.0NA, P19mx, N5.5 and maybe a Hobie 20. There should even be a brand new Hobie Tiger there on Sunday. Notice I didn’t say F-16 or Super Cat. That’s because there are no F-16’s within hundreds of miles from here. And other then two SC22 on White Bear there aren’t any Super Cats racing either. Formula 16 is a great concept, but in this area you will be on your own for a long time. There is a good fleet of Hobie 20s that travel in Iowa, Nebraska and SD and points Southwest, but in Minnesota you will be lucky to find 3 of them racing. I could hook you up with someone looking to sell their Hobie 20 because they would rather be sailing F-18 or F-17.

If you want a fun boat, and a growing fleet Formula 18 is the obvious choice. There are used boats available, I could help with that too. Right now we have a eight of them in Minnesota, Iowa, and WI, and the numbers will continue to grow. Two years ago there was only one.

Drop me a private e-mail and I can give you further information.
Also see BEYC Headlines
and also
Waconia Sailing Club Home page

An H16 is not as high performance but gives you lots of bang for the buck. I don't know what your experience level is. An F18 with the small suit of sails is what I would recommned to someone that could handle it. The F18 is very high-tech (read complicated). Hobie and Nacra both make a nice F18. H20's, F18's and I20's are popular in that area.

Mike Hill

In your price range, I think the F-18 is the way to go. At your weight, you need the small set of sails and your Nacra Dealer (Cathouse1 dot com) had 5 (now 4, I think) F-18s to choose from. These are all fresh water boats that have been well cared for and been competitive or won races and regattas in the Catamaran Racing Associations of Michigan or Wisconsin. I know he has a choice of small or large sail plans (in F-18, you have to weigh at lease 308 lbs. to legally use the large jib and spinnker). I have been dealing with the Cathouse for at least 15 years and they have never treated me badly or led me astray. At least talk to him. He probably has the boat you want. I know that he has sold a number of boats that are now in your area.

I guess that the first F18 owner overthere was warned that he would be on his own for a long time as well. If F18 class grew from 1 to 8 in 2 years than so too can any other class with a sound foundation.

But anyway, I still think that the intended use should play a dominant role in what he eventually buys. Several things will point to class so-and-so and other things will point to class that-and-that. Seems to me that for your budget you got alot alternatives ranging from H16's to H20's and from F16's via F18 to I-20's. All have their strong points and all have their weak points. So what do you want to do with the boat. Sail solo alot of times ? Have large numbers at events ? have the most high performance boat available ? All these questions will point to different types of boats, no single type will be on top of the list in all aspects. Without knowing the answers to these question one will be struggling to make a founded choice for one particular type; and maybe even end up with one that isn't really what you wanted. So my advice would be to formulate precisely what you want and what you expected usage will be and than look for a good fit.

Wouter

I hope I can come to the intro to cats thing, but there is a chance I'll be at my cabin.

I think that the f-18 is probably what I'm looking for, especially since I could get ahold of one with relative ease. It'll be for next summer, and I'll be working until then to get the rest of the money I'll need. I think my excitement has reached an unhealthy level.

HA! Hooked 'em!

Some of those hobie 16,s you talked about are sailed by some of the best cat sailors in the midwest.Just get Brent to tell you about a guy named Jagger.Most all the Hobie regattes in the midwest the best competition is in the 16 class.Come on out to Spicer MN,july 9,10 for the Bald eagle regatta on Green Lake

For those that aren't aware, the North American F18 website is at http://www.naf18.com

I thought a few days about your following statement :




Having sailed both F18's and F16's quite considerably I can't find myself in agreement with that statement. If you had said "more nervous" than yes I could see where you are coming from , but not "more demanding". Besides the difference in beam between F16 and F18 is a mere 100 mm (or 4 inches, 0.1 mtr) so that can hardly be the difference. Also I find the superwing rig to be alot more responsive, especially to gusts, which makes it largely depower itself automatically. I really do feel more in control on a F16 than on a F18, although I agree that it can be more "demanding" (if you will) mentally. Maybe that is what you were trying to say. I don't agree that the F16 is fysically more demanding, but if you meant more demanding in concentration and careful steerage than yes I understand what you mean. The F16's do react more sharply and quicker to changes in trim and steerage. But this has more to do with the feel of a boat than with being fysically more demanding or with being out of control. It means you must have steady hand, but if you have that then she is rather docile and very predictable. If your hand is trained well enough than you have excellent and sharp control, I would even say more control than alot of the F18 competition. NO stalling rudders, rooster tales or what not. If you say "turn", she will turn. If you say "turn hard" then she will turn hard and then it is your responsibility to be prepared for that.

The F16 sailplan does not feel as powerful to me as an F18 one. Actually I find that I double trapeze noticeably later than the F18's (when doublehanding), even though I'm doing the same speed as they do. Sure, it is a race boat so you can tip it if you make a big mistake in sail handling but I'm not riding the edge as much as I did on the F18's. On the F18's you were always looking to maximize power to get the best drive. On the F16's I find that I trim the other way. I trim for smoothness and speed (low drag) rather than power. As a result you are not feeling like riding a Lion at full speed. Mind you, you can drive a F16 like an F18 and than you will get what you asked for; lots of power. My point is that after a short while everybody will learn that that is simply not the way to sail F16's. You sail more comfortably as well as faster when trimming for medium power and low drag. Like this you'll be sailing along side F18's with a more behaved boat.

I also much rather do a dive on a F16 than on a F18. The lightweight F16's masts certainly allow recovery from more serious dives.

I certainly find the rig more forgiving than all alternatives I ever sailed with the exception of the A-cat.

Seriously, I can't quite agree with your statements.

But than again, I don't have a standard Taipan 4.9, with which I assume you are familiar with, but an optimized F16. That means wider, improved mainsail design, better rudder boards, and other little goodies like improved downhaul design and added spinnaker. For I'll say one thing about Taipans they are a wild ride on a beam reach and broad reaches without a spinnaker. On the other hand I hear very much the same thing about the nacra F18 for example. Under spinnaker it is much more docile. And of course more modern hull shapes like the Capricorn F18 and the Blade F16 are alot more docile on a beam reach as well.


Wouter