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pinching downwind #51485
06/21/05 04:37 PM
06/21/05 04:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 281
Houston, Texas
EasyReiter Offline OP
enthusiast
EasyReiter  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 281
Houston, Texas
Assuming you have a narrow channel to sail in, you are going downwind,and one side is favored (one short tack and one long.) is it ok and under what conditions to sail deeper and slower than you might want, so as to not have to jibe lots. Would you power the rig to sail lower? or just bite the bullet and short jibe.


Marc Reiter I 20 #861 Dikes, Ferries and Tramps. www.texascitydike.com
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Re: pinching downwind [Re: EasyReiter] #51486
06/21/05 06:02 PM
06/21/05 06:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
veteran
Tornado  Offline
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Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Driving lower usually loses to sailing higher/faster since the VMG is better with the latter method. Also, I have been in situations where I was resigned to making 2 more gybes to make a mark rounding, and so stayed at a fast angle. As the wind piped up, we got a great improvement in apparent wind angle as the boat sped up. This let us head off to a much lower angle to the true wind than we otherwise would have been able to by just soaking ("pinching") down to start with. Suddenly, we were able to make the mark without the extra gybes and actually passed a leading boat doing the low & slow thing by several lengths.
Mike.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: pinching downwind [Re: EasyReiter] #51487
06/21/05 06:34 PM
06/21/05 06:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
The Wave is the only boat that I have seen the low and slow work on with any consistency, but it sails more like a dighy than most catamarans. Oh, except for excruciatingly light air. I've been told in the drifters, always point right at the mark, no matter what boat you're on.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: pinching downwind [Re: EasyReiter] #51488
06/21/05 07:00 PM
06/21/05 07:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Quote
Assuming you have a narrow channel to sail in, you are going downwind,and one side is favored (one short tack and one long.) is it ok and under what conditions to sail deeper and slower than you might want, so as to not have to jibe lots. Would you power the rig to sail lower? or just bite the bullet and short jibe.


That's a tough call and it's not something you normally do (sail downwind in a narrow channel). The only time I've had to do it is going through the mangrove channels of the Key Largo Steeplechase. I have done both, long deep jibes and normal angles with a lot of short jibes. I felt the long deep jibes worked better. But, keep in mind we were in a mangrove channel where the wind was quite swirley (sp) and we could paddle. If we couldn't paddle then sailing normal angles might have had the edge.

First in foremost in these situations I get to the pressure and get out of an opposing current, it always seems like there is an opposing current.

Again, I only find myself in that situation once a year. Wish I had a more definitive answer.

Dave

Last edited by dingram; 06/21/05 07:28 PM.

David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
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Re: pinching downwind [Re: David Ingram] #51489
06/22/05 03:34 AM
06/22/05 03:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
I would say stay high and powered up unless there are tactical reasons (boat on boat) not to.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: pinching downwind [Re: scooby_simon] #51490
06/22/05 04:06 AM
06/22/05 04:06 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
I would say it depends on a lot of things.

*If we are racing, it's head on full blast and jibe every 15-20 seconds if neccesary. We would need some decent wind tough, if the wind is weak, it might be faster to go deep.
*If we are just out cruising, we would probably sheet out and go low and slow if the channel isn't to long.
*If it's a very narrow channel, we would probably take it easy and not risk getting to close to shore/rocks etc.

So, "it depends", but generally I like to be powered up and go somewhere fast (no matter _where_ we are going ).

Re: pinching downwind [Re: EasyReiter] #51491
06/22/05 02:41 PM
06/22/05 02:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
If you are in a channel you should keep to the starboard side to allow room for other craft. you can even go wing on wing if need be.

Re: pinching downwind [Re: Tornado] #51492
06/23/05 12:16 PM
06/23/05 12:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 281
Houston, Texas
EasyReiter Offline OP
enthusiast
EasyReiter  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 281
Houston, Texas
Actually the "Channel is virtual" more like a rumb line than a real channel with sides. And deffinitely in a racing long distance environment. (for fun I go as fast and as high as I can).


Marc Reiter I 20 #861 Dikes, Ferries and Tramps. www.texascitydike.com
Re: pinching downwind - [Re: Tornado] #51493
06/23/05 12:31 PM
06/23/05 12:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 281
Houston, Texas
EasyReiter Offline OP
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EasyReiter  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 281
Houston, Texas
It was my experience that in order to drive deep and keep up any speed at all you had to come in off the wire and power up a little, the question is when if ever is this a good idea (in racing only).

or would you double trap, power up and go as fast as possible jibing every mile or so. (at what wind speed?)

then again it could be that you have an sequence based on wind speed to edge downwind, such as first sheet out, then come in off the wire, ease downhaul, whatever.

My plan in the past has been to power up as much as possible then depower only when the wind gets a bit wild. this will bring you far away from the rumb line and you must jibe back. When is fast really slow? in real light air you would never do this but where is the line that it is time to heat it up trap out and get your groove on.


Marc Reiter I 20 #861 Dikes, Ferries and Tramps. www.texascitydike.com
Re: pinching downwind - [Re: EasyReiter] #51494
06/23/05 01:50 PM
06/23/05 01:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 39
Central Europe
ceitzi Offline
newbie
ceitzi  Offline
newbie

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 39
Central Europe
My experience (limited to Ts) when going downwind is

- if there is very light wind it does not pay off to get one hull out of the water at all costs. Going deeper with both hulls in water will be only a little bit slower but definitely increases your VMG.

- in medium wind conditions it depends on the situation. If there are no other boats close to you, you may gain a small advantage by slightly favouring depth over speed. If other boats are close you need speed and power to prevent them from overtaking.
In any case it seems to me that the way how you go downwind (both on the hull, one trapped out, both on the wire) does not make a really big difference with respect to VMG.

Ceitzi


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