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Any new ideas ? #51611
06/23/05 03:26 PM
06/23/05 03:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
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sail6000  Offline OP
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Posts: 800
MI

It seems the existing conditions with 20 ft boat specifications in the US and NA all over THE SPECTRUM leads to reason it is doubtfull builders will anytime soon help promote a Formula 20 production class in the current definition .

Hobie Fox -built by Hobie in FR to the EU version F-20 spec including 420 weight and 215 main area is 30 lbs heavier and has 15 sq ft less sail area than the P-built Inter 20 --the most raced 20 currently .-

Other 20s or would-be 20s also vary a great amount in specification.

Many would like to see a NA F-20 for existing cats ,but it seems a small percentage are left if local racing is an indication .--most have sold their 20 and gone to Formula 18 racing or single handed in I-17s or A class cats --all great race groups ,--though many still prefer 20s for many good reasons .

Perhaps the B Class basic specs --{tornado is based on } but with more open development aspect that would include the T and new HT version 20s within should be attempted at this time .-

Any other new ideas or concepts out there ?
thanks
Carl

It takes a dedicated core group of 20 sailors to begin -

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Re: Any new ideas ? [Re: sail6000] #51612
06/23/05 07:53 PM
06/23/05 07:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Hi Carl

Perhaps you should work on the events side of the equation.

Identify 6 events that 20 foot spin boats WANT to participate in eg. Steeple Chase, C100, New England 100 Plus 3 buoy events, Tradewinds, Catfight, Something at Sandy Hook, NJ or Houston Tx. If they are three days... perhaps the remains of the Tornado fleet in the US will come out... As it is now, they have a schedule of 2 events in Miami and two events in Houston and that's it. One of the Houston events is supposed to be a gran prix type of event that the Euro guys would come over for because the season has ended in the Eu in December. What if that 3 day event included Tornado's and I20's and any other boat rated slower then the Tornado.

If you got the Builders, Harken and Several Sailmakers to pony up cash for a perpetual and cash prizes to the series winner or to the gran prix winners you might start something.

Nothing is happening now. So try two divisions.
20 feet, with a PN or Texel rating of Tornado or slower even up.
20 feet, faster then Tornado even up. Cash is apportioned according to fleet size. Consider two fees, Teams and Boats with sponsorship pay a higher fee then pure Corinthian sailors.... the extra cash goes into the prizes.

Hook up with Brian Karr and get some video of the events so that the sponsored teams have a product to show. If the pro's are coming to town... Why wouldn't the local racers come out to race. It builds interest and gives you a spectacle.

Once you get the critical mass of sailors... I suspect a consensus would emerge as to a fair set of rules moving forward.

Mark



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Any new ideas ? [Re: Mark Schneider] #51613
06/24/05 09:34 PM
06/24/05 09:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
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sail6000  Offline OP
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MI
Great ideas -thanks again Mark

Many would just be happy with a complimentary type Formula 20 class -like the F-18 16 14 etc -not necessarily a top sailor or cash prize event series ,--though it would be nice to have again .

Some are going to R34s

And do like the Formula 28 class concept
though both must be very expensive --

looking for connections ideas etc to get F-20s going .

Re: Any new ideas ? [Re: sail6000] #51614
06/25/05 07:02 AM
06/25/05 07:02 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Formula 28? I tought that class was dead after the 90's?

I also like the Formula 20 idea. I would not have to loose quite as much weight compared to what I would have to loose if we should compete on an F-18

I think that to get a F-20 class going, it's a question of arranging the races and making it happend.
Cash prizes might attract some, but thats not why Joe Average goes to a race. He knows that he will probably not go home with the prize anyway. At least I go to regattas becouse it's fun, and becouse we can se how much we have improved, and learn new tricks.


Re: Any new ideas ? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #51615
06/25/05 10:03 AM
06/25/05 10:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
When you want to build attendance for a regatta, you need to generate an event atmosphere. You have to build the image to the point where average joe sailor says... I just have to make life work so that I will be there. (Texel seems to have that buzz and it's only a 2 and 1/2 hour race)

If you market "the party" as the essence of the event you will get one or two good turnouts and then as with all things trendy... "been there done that will cut your participation in half". This is not sustainable.

On the other hand, events like "the Nationals" have staying power because of the competition that they draw. You still need to put on a good party but the party is secondary to the competion.

The caveat is that the top dogs have to attend.... If the perception is "well they call them nationals but X, and Y an Z aren't racing" you are doomed."
For Example, the Nacra 20 will have two "national events" The first in Michigan at the Performance combined worlds/nationals will probably be sparsely attended if you believe the postings on the internet. Thus they created another event in Florida that the top teams claim they will attend.

So, the first step is to select a schedule that puts events where the joe sailors are and then to get the rock stars to come. 6 events is ambitious. 3 or 4 might be doable.

I don't think you can build a series on hype alone... but cash always works. The rock stars can justify the time and expense by saying hey... I should finish well enough to cover my costs. Joe Sailor will turn up to compete with the best and see how they do and perhaps do well enough to upset one of the big dogs. The cash prize is not a big deal unless they win some. Since everyone loves an underdog you generate interest if you get the story telling correct. The bigger the event the more energy you can harness and the more satisified that your sponsors are.

It takes years to build an event and just one or two bad events to blow things up.

Perhaps you could generate a series of two Distance races and two buoys races with the best 3 out of 4 counting.
Catfight (Aug), Houston w Tornado's??? (Nov), Steeple chase (Dec) and a Mid Atlantic distance race, C100, DTB (June) or the Statue Race (July)...

Another Idea is to get involved in the Big Boat events that already have a big marketing push behind them. EG, Key West Race Week plus Newport plus the Chesapeake Bay CBYRA championships. (Its much easier to join in with the marketing and help push ... then rise above the noise with a seperate event) You have to believe that a Key West start of 15 20 foot cats would draw some attention and get Joe Sailor out to the race course. (hell you see just as many beach cats in Madison avenue marketing campaigns as you do monohulls and the image of agressive, exciting, colorful photogenic works.... we just need a female driver that looks as good as that Indy driver! )


Take Care
Mark











crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Any new ideas ? [Re: Mark Schneider] #51616
06/28/05 10:36 AM
06/28/05 10:36 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
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sail6000  Offline OP
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Posts: 800
MI
Hi Rolf and Mark

Mark -quote --The caveat is that the top dogs have to attend.... If the perception is "well they call them nationals but X, and Y an Z aren't racing" you are doomed."
For Example, the Nacra 20 will have two "national events" The first in Michigan at the Performance combined worlds/nationals will probably be sparsely attended if you believe the postings on the internet. Thus they created another event in Florida that the top teams claim they will attend.
end quote --

Think the terrible truth is Mark that there are few N-20S left in Mich ,--the result is yet another dead boat class in an endless stream of them --

I own one and have no class or F-20 class to race in locally ,--most have gone to F-18s --some to F-17s and A class --only the Tybee is left for racing the N-20 ,--would actually prefer some other 20 at this point .

Sorry -but few are interested in P rated racing ,-
As you know most prefer some type of class racing ,-numereous aspects of handicap really don,t make sence --why race if boats are to be continually handicaped by time --it is a self defeating exercise as the slower the boat the more favorable the handicap time alloted .

Think we need a FORMULA 20 Class in some form .
I don,t have clout enough to influence boat builders to build to a new one ,--but perhaps some have added suggestions on a new strategy for F-20 .

Re: Any new ideas ? [Re: sail6000] #51617
06/28/05 10:51 AM
06/28/05 10:51 AM

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Quote
would actually prefer some other 20 at this point


Might be worth talking with Matt down at Vectorworks. Rumor has it that he is putting a new 20 together.

BTW, I attended the CRAW regatta in Madison this past weekend. Pretty strong N20 representation there.

Mark T.

Re: Any new ideas ? [Re: sail6000] #51618
06/28/05 12:06 PM
06/28/05 12:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Carl

I will run the risk of mis characterizing the michigan fleet history as an outsider but here goes.

Once upon a time they had a very strong 5.8 class, the 6.0 and inter 18 class did not catch on.. The drivers... read guys wanted to move up to chutes and so the I20 caught on... BUT.... the fact of life is that any 20 footer wants a strong person on the front of the boat because it's physically demanding. Any 20 is a lot for a standard couple team for it to be fun. So, IMO, the migration to the F18 fleet makes a lot of sense for a fleet that has a lots of couples at it's core. You are a big guy and just won't fit on an F18 unless you have the perfect crew.

Locally, CRAM supports class and open racing by scoring the races every way they can. You just have to find the other large teams and agree on common schedule that gets you out to the same regatta. (I know, its worse then herding kitty cats)

The I20, Tornado, N6.0 and M6.0 Supercat 20's are the existing platforms for bigger teams and the number of teams we are talking about is not huge.. But... they won't be switching to F18's because of the physics! To make matters worse, the sailors that own these boats split their time between distance and buoys races...with distance races being favored so its hard to see the 20's as a big class anywhere in the USA.

The solution is to relax your one design/forumale standard, Come up with a series of races that people want to do and see if promotion and perhaps some sponsorship from Performance will restart the 20 foot ersatz class.

You would think that with 10 I20's and 5 Tornados, and 3 N6.0's on the Chesapeake Bay that you could get a 20 foot spin class racing ... BUT... its worse then herding kitty cats!

Take Care
Mark








I




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Any new ideas ? [Re: Mark Schneider] #51619
07/03/05 07:26 PM
07/03/05 07:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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pitchpoledave  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
Yes I agree that you should include the Tornados. There seem to be a lot around this area.

Also, around here couple teams seam to be a rarity..Its usually two guys on the boat, and with one guy over 190lbs, its pretty hard to find crew that weights 120lbs, or whatever it takes to make your minimum weight for the boat.

Re: Any new ideas ? [Re: pitchpoledave] #51620
07/04/05 09:06 AM
07/04/05 09:06 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
The increased weight of the western population is a good reason for a F-20 class. Big people need big boats
I would do well to loose 10kg's myself, but I would still weight in at a decent 85kg's at 1.78meters height.

I also think the T's should be included, as there are quite many of them around. Many can be bought cheap in various conditions, and re-fitted to a Formula-20 competitive state if a young team without money wanted to race on a fast and proven platform.


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