Until I get my F16 I'm sailing a Hobie 17 which has been a fun boat to learn cat sailing on and quite easy to sail. I race my buddies on our local lake and am just amazed at how much higher I can point, so much so that they don't want to race windward courses with me anymore. Although I'd like to think it has to do with my skill, I suspect it's the combination of unirig and boards (though the boards are small). The H16's do have more sail area than me though.

Anyway, on to my question: will I find that a unirig F16 points better than sloop F16's (ie, is the better poining just do to cat rig vs sloop)? Yes, I've read that A cats outpoint everything so I'm guessing it holds true for unirig F16's also. Also, will a unirig F16 point better than my H17 (and the H16's) becuase of longer board and higher aspect ratio rig (maybe even better hull design on the Blade)?

Thanks,

Jerry

Thing to understand is that uni-rig can always point higher than a sloop when trimmed right, BUT this doesn't mean that their upwind Velocity Made Good (VMG) is better as well. And there is anoher thing. A-cat sailors today make alot of fuss about reaching the A-mark first while that is absolutely meaningless when you give all the lead that you have away on the downwind part. Our catamaran races are not just upwind legs, they are always full laps. So one can optimize a boat to be an upwind killer but if that kills your own downwind speed at the same time then you have a serious problem in open class racing.


But back to your H17 example.
What often happens when a uni-rig joins the race is that all the sloop boats try to engage the uni-rig in a pointing duel, which kills the speed of a sloop. For a sloop it is waaaaaaay better to just point lower, speed up and achieve better VMG through boatspeed rather than pointing.

In the case of the F16's. Yes a uni-rig F16 (1-up as we say) will always be ABLE to point higher than a sloop but this is not to say that it will always have a better upwind VMG. Or that pointing high is the best way to achieve the optimal VMG even on a 1-up F16.

I find on my own boat that alot of downhaul that and pointing just slightly higher than the sloops is fastest. If I want to I can point 10 to 15 degrees higher than say an I-20 but that doesn't seem to be fast enough to stay ahead of the I-20's on handicap or elapsed time. I found that pointing high was only beneficial when other factors like current or a nearby shoreline really favours staying on a certain tack. However, I'm still working on finding the right trade-off ratio though, because if you point too low than your VMG drops again. So there is an optimal point between pointing high and having a slow vmg and pointing low and having a slow vmg.

In case of the F16 boat that I'm sailing, the Taipan F16 if you will, I find that it likes to ride freely and with high boat speed. For some reason you get better VMG if you ride the Taipan hull shape like that. I think that both the Taipan and the other F16's like Stealth and Blade will point better than the H17 but that is not the same as saying that both boats have their optimal VMG at the same courses (same applies for downwind sailing of course). I think the H17 is a boat that like pointing over boatspeed, but I'm certainly not the most experienced sailor on the H17.

One thing Bard and I found while racing the Stealth F16 in april is that you just have to sail your own race. You have to look at the other boats (F18's) to see what the favoured side of the course is but not look at the others to see what the proper course is. Once we adjusted the boat course to what felt good for the Stealth we found that we started placing noticeably higher in the results. Actually we were reaching the A-mark alot sooner then before even if we were pointing a little lower than the F18's. Of course as mentioned at the start of this thread it doesn't matter how you sail as long as you reach the finish line sooner than the others. You can even sail 20 degrees lower than all others as long as that will get you to the mark or finish first. The F16's that I've sailed so far seem to prefer boat speed over pointing when optimizing for VMG. Mostly by only a couple of degrees; just a little not very much. I think the Blade F16 favours such a trade-off less. It can both point high and low without affecting VMG much. If the VMG is high in both modes than I think this to be the best setup for a race boat. This gives you more options on how to appoach a mark. Especially when a current is affecting the course. But that is another topic.

What is striking about the H17 is how similar in specs it is too a F16 :

Hobie 17

Length overall 5.20 mtr
Waterline length 5.14 mtr
Mainsail area ; 14.76 sq. mtr.
Mainsail luff length : 7.93 mtr.
Overall weight : 150 kg


F16's

Length overall 5.00 mtr
Waterline length 5.00 mtr
Mainsail area ; 15.00 sq. mtr.
Mainsail luff length : 8.00 mtr.
Overall weight = 107 kg



Fair winds Jerry !

Wouter

Thanks, Wouter, for your excellent input as usual.

Yes, the H17 specs out very similar to F16 and I do like the H17, but at 2/3 the weight, I know I'll like an F16 much more! And that's not even counting the spi, flexibility, or high tech cool factor...

Regarding pointing of a unirig vs sloop, you points sound very valid. The only experience I have is H17 vs H16 (both sailed solo, but H16's as sloop). Interesting, in the first few races, which were upwind/downwind, the H16 did exactly as you suggested, trying to get into a pointing duel with me, which they rapidly lost. It almost felt like I was sailing straight upwind! And I didn't feel like I was giving up too much speed by favoring pointing over a lower course although one did have to sail an S course to keep the speed vs pointing optimized. In subseqauent races, the H16's tried a different tactic, as you suggested, which was to sail lower and faster, attempting to mazimize their VMG in doing so. But even when doing that, it was just no contest to the upwind mark. Now I can say that I had to have a good 10 MPH to point that well and this tactic wasn't quite as effective in less wind. One place I did suffer significantly was off the wind and I did give up lots of ground gained to the windward mark. But ususally the windward gains were enough to keep me ahead, sometimes majorly so. If the racecourse gets redefined as a reaching course primarily I know I'll suffer, particularly in ligher winds. But an F16 which will allow one to sail with a jib and/or spi would be just unbeatable.

I've sailed the H17 a fair amount and sailed an H16 only a few times. My experience is that the H17 is a more technical boat and more difficult to trim properly (both sail trim and hull trim) so it's not easy to get the most out of it but when you do the payback is great. I suspect this is even more true of F16's.

Thanks,

Jerry

Hi Jerry,

Wouter pretty much covered it, but I thought I would add my experiences. On Mosquito one up in strong winds, I often pointed as low if not lower than two up boats, but was able to obtain a competitive VMG, but most Mossies one up are known for pointing higher than two up.

It's realy about what works for you and is dependent on wind and wave conditions, In rough water it can be harder to drive a one up boat upwind so to keep a good VMG you have to point lower.

The Hobie 17's I have come up against were certainly high pointers, but I generaly beat them one up in stronger winds pointing lower travelling faster. At the same time the Hobie 16's are starting to come into their own and the good guys are pointing close to the same hieght as me but going faster, beating me to the top mark.

So far on the F16 "Altered" I generaly point high, specialy in 5 to 10kts, up with the A's but as the wind increases I go lower as I get on trap trying to increase speed. Although generaly still a bit higher than two up F16's and F18's, this is still a work in progress as I believe I can still get better speed upwind and good VMG by pointing a bit lower and possibly matching two up speed?

Regards Gary.

Jerry,

One thing you really must keep in mind is that every boat sails just a little different, even 2 boats of the same make. Differences in crew weight, set up sail conditions etc all come into play. Sailing a catamaran is all about hull speed. You have leverage in cats and it needs to be used to its full advantage. The biggest mistake I see people on the race course doing, is trying to point with or higher than the guy next to them. It takse some time to learn where your boat sails well, but you need to sail it and not your neighbors. They may be pinching, or in the posts sailing a different design. If you can not out point them, do not try, just go fast and as high as your boat will go.

The F16 will sail as high in either set up (Uni or Sloop). This is contingent on not getting overpowered when adding the jib and still being single. If it is controlled no loss in pointing will occure and you can go faster. When another 125 lbs++ of crew is added, the boat will now not be able to point so well so do not try, use the leverage to generate move speed. The extra set of hands will allow you to keep proper trim on all sails all the time, which means the boat is more condition dependant on which is faster in which configuration.

One thing we have noticed is that on the Blade we seem to be able to point as high or higher than most of the boats we have been sailing against. I am attributing this to the battened jib, which really provides much better control of the sail, and makes it possible to keep the slot controled in all conditions.

The biggest thing is first learning it, then just sailing the boat you are on.

Sail fast.

Matt

Matt and Gary,

Thanks for your comments and sharing your experiences.

The issues you describe are why it's always exciting to move up to a new boat design every once in a while and broaden your experience base.

Matt, regarding the battened jib, I'm curious up to about what wind speed you find that sailing with the jib singlehanded (a) enhances your performance rather than detracts from it, and (b) is possible (ie, at what wind speed does singlehanding with a battened jib become difficult and counterproductive).

Thanks,

Jerry