A while back Wouter, by the use only of "calculations" only, you stated that you thought that the Alpha F14 would probably eventually end up competing somewhere close to the F18's (and by default with the F16's) Well our winter experiences sailing seem to be heading well on the way towards the direction that you hypothesised it would, I must admit that I was a little dubious of your “calculations” BUT I now have to admit that you may have just got it right.
An update of the continuing performance results of the F14.
The Alpha F14 sailed in the Adelaide Yacht Club’s once a month winter series last Sunday. It had to sail with three F18's, these being a Hobie Tiger, the Blade F18, and a Nacra F18. There were two races on the afternoon with light conditions. The wind was from the North/NW at 7 to 10 knots, with a few minimal shifts. The course for each race (back to back) was three beats and three windward returns, ideal conditions for the F18's. The Alpha stayed with the F18's during the first race, but finished behind all three, BUT by back calculation of the times, the Alpha sailed up to a yardstick of 74 (the F18 yardstick is 70). So not too shoddy a performance. In the second race the Alpha stayed right with all three of the F18's for the whole race finishing less than two minutes behind the Blade F18 and in front (over the line) of the Hobie Tiger, the Nacra F18 was behind the Alpha on the first beat and turned onto the run well before the first buoy to sail downwind with the Blade and, as a consequence, he never went through the finish line.
(Could you include the F14 within the F16 “grandfathering” or some thing similar rule so that they can sail together – just joking Wouter)
Food for thought
All the best
Darryl

OK then Wouter,

If we (hypothetically) wanted a 10ft trainer cat for kids (or midgets) that would blow the F18's etc. into the weeds what would the spec be?

Wouldn't that be a hoot?

(PS. Wouter - the above is entirely rhetorical.)

Hi Darryl,

You keep throwing out the F14 minnow bait on the F16 lake and I the big F16 shark will keep biting.

Forget the calculations, you are welcome to come and race me anytime, the conditions you describe 7 to 10kts are the same conditions I have found the F18 to be the most beatable in, not as you describe "ideal conditions for the F18's". They are much harder to stay with when it is a drifter or blowing over 15 kts.

I have found racing against the Aust. titles second placed F18 and others that the F16 one up, out points them upwind easily in this breeze and travels at a similar speed = better VMG to windward. Downwind F16 one up sails deeper and faster getting well ahead. It is not until the F16 one up has to trap all the time, up and down wind that the F18 does similar upwind and downwind speed.

In other words I think F14 one up is still slower than F16 one up, in the conditions you describe. Although of course you never said it was faster.

I just love rising to the bait, especialy after happy hour and a few more with dinner, it's Friday night after all and the footy hasn't started yet, so I have nothing better to do.

Regards Gary.

I think its more of a matter of sailor than of boat.

You can put a really good sailor in a F14 and he can and will whoop anything bigger. On the other hand you put a really good sailor on a F18 he will whoop on everything.

It really comes down to the sailor, than the sailboat.

Not knocking down the F14 or even the F18, I am just stating what I beleive is correct.

You keep wanting to race against the F14 Gary, and don't worry it will happen. We are sort of "busy" in SA at the moment - a little too busy to pack up for one days racing after travelling overnight, to hop straight out of the car just to get to the start line then race to pack up immediately after the finish to drive back overnight to start work again. When we can spare a little more time to travel a day or so before and not have to leave to come back immediately, we will see you "on the race course there" - then again you could always come over here for a race or two? You would be more than welcome and we would love to see you both on and off the water.

There is absolutely no doubt about your logic Robi, it most definately always does comes down to the qualities of the respective sailors. I wouldn't (and haven't) make comparisons in races between sailors and boats unless they were in the same area of ability and experience, if I did compare to inexperienced sailors the results would be completely meaningless.

Oh and GARY, I haven’t used any of the results in light to drifter conditions as those are the conditions that the F14 proves to be MORE than competitive with F18's and A class etc, and as such I tend not to use those results as those "very light" conditions are the ones that sailors who get beaten tend to say that "luck" was the major player in the results.
Similarly with the heavier conditions (in which we find it easier to more than just hold the F18's) I use the 7 to 10 knot range as that is the tightest range of conditions for us to compete with the larger boats, and I feel it is the range where ability and experience of the competition count the most.

That's good news Darryl !

I will say one thing ... Or may a few more as well !

Anyway. I always wondered why people are so suspicious of numbers and calculation. Sure there are always inaccuracies but if such calculations can put men on the moon and harness the power of the atom then why would it be hard to produce a ball-park performance prediction for a sail boat ?

It is something I noticed as an engineer over the last couple of years; numbers and calculation don't seem to get the appreciation the deserve. Often gutt feelings win out over properly developped math. Of course there is alot of bad math out there, used to bolter questionable position but that is often linked to statistics not to math linked to basic engineering and physics.

I hope this example (another one) will show people that knowlegde of physics and mathematics still is a dependable tool to base expectation upon, while gutt feeling is less dependable. Of course I'm not saying that a well developped gutt can play on important role nevertheless, even in matters of science.

I think I agree with gary on the experience that F18's are harder to beat outside of the 7 to 10 knots range WHEN SINGLEHANDING. On the other hand the math is most accurate in these conditions as well because here the assumptions about wind and hull related drag are best satisfied here.

I fully expect your F14 (not the US versions) to end up at a rating around 74 under the VYC yardstick when singlehanding. The underlying ratios are just too dominant in the overall picture to be otherwise. It may swing up and down 1 or 2 points depending on the seastate and wind conditions but 74 will be a good (predicted) average.

Hey Darryl how about you building a full carbon Blade F16 under license for our Australian F16 wannabees. The design seems to take off in the USA and I feel Europe is on the brink of doing so. We only have trouble getting the Australian market serviced. Besides I gether you are close to Marcus Towell as well.

Wouter

Hi Darryl,

have said before that I am happy to come over and race. Just let me know when you have something big on, if the prize money is big enough I won't charge too much for my apperance fee.

Regards Gary.

JEESUS Gary, you really have got "bitten by the bug" haven't you? You and altered MUST be performing really well? Your confidence is good to see as well as the apparent fact that you seem to be thoroughly enjoying your sailing now (perhaps better than on any other boat that you have sailed?) It's a far cry from the "Gary" we all read about when you had that first real disaster in the bow structure back when you first put altered on the water? It just goes to show that "perseverance most times brings success"
I will look at the program for the coming season and see what can be arranged. The "classics” such as the Milang to Goolwa, also the Goolwa to Milang and the longest of all, the Goolwa to Meningie are all point to point races of considerable distances which ALWAYS test both skipper and boat to their limit, and are worth travelling to from anywhere to compete in. Once these races have been sailed in, it’s hard not to keep coming back time and again.
We would be quite favourable to manufacturing the Blade here Wouter, but the logistics in Australia usually dictate that for a boat to “succeed commercially” here, it has to be manufactured either in NSW or Queensland, it’s a strange thing, but that has always been my experience in the boat building industry within Australia. Many years ago we passed up the opportunity of sole manufacture of the NACRA’s here in South Australia because, as I said to Bob Forbes (who had the rights of manufacture under licence then) The class would probably die in Australia unless they moved the base of manufacture up to Queensland, which they did and, as they say, the rest is history.
Darryl

We have known and appreciated Marcus as a talented sailor as well as "just a really nice guy" since he was a relatively "little boy" on a "big Arrow" WOUTER, and I do agree with you that "mathematics don't lie". The only problem that I do have with maths is not in the maths itself, but not knowing the person who is applying the maths and the biggest problem of all, that of taking into consideration all the variables associated with any particular formulation. As you are aware, the result of the application of a beautiful formula is rubbish if only one small variable is not taken into the consideration of the whole. (Then again theories are just that unless they stand up to the proof)

Actually engineering is all about what to take into account and what to neglect. So indeed here the touch of the man behind the math is all important. On the other hand the proof is in the mathematic rating systems like Texel and sure enough the F16's themself. I (we) already knew that it was possible to give a relatively accurate prediction of a boat performance by using a few rather simple formula's. Of course these were honed on the well know examples before being applied to the F14. That is were the dependability came from.

Wouter

Hi Darryl,

you do realise my tongue was planted firmly in my cheek.

The biggest worry about sailing in S.A. is the Noah's.
I love long distance races, years ago I did a Kangaroo Island crossing race on sailboards, thankfuly the great whites spit out West Australians, I didn't tell them I was From Vic. originaly.

But seriously, as much as I love long distance races, I would rather come over for a couple of round the bouys races over a couple of days. The problem with the long distance races is bad weather, gear failure, and you waste alot of travel, with multiple races over multiple days you have a better chance of getting at least one good sail.

Mind you I have always wanted to do a Milang Goolwa, since meeting those friendly big multi sailors from down there at Southern Ocean Multihull Regatta.

Regards Gary.

Hmm.. may I point out that almost all of the commercially available International 14s are made in SA. (I suspect all at this stage but there may be someone trying somewhere else.)

Stewart

So your a sandgroper!!..
Stewart

SO YOU WENT TO K.I. ON A SAIL BOARD???????
I always thought that the person(s) who did that was/were immediately locked away at Glenside (a hospital for the intellectually challenged)?? After that, sailing Altered must seem a little "tame"? You didn't own/work in a sailboard shop here in Adelaide at that time by any chance did you?
Any way, back to the point-to-point races. The reasons that I mentioned the "classic" races is that they are all held on the lower reaches of the Murray river (the closest point of sailing at any major regattas in SA to Victoria) and the percentages of ALWAYS getting the race finished on the allocated day is excellent - I don't remember there ever being an abandoned race or for that matter a race that wasn't sailed on the scheduled day. There has only been one day to my memory that there was a lot of "carnage" and that was the first ever race of the Goolwa to Milang where there were forty knot gusts from astern where the channel opens out into Lake Alexandrina - but that was an anomaly that has not occurred again, and even with those extreme conditions over 98% of the starters still finished that race. The lakes and river are probably the most reliable areas at which to schedule a yacht race and almost be able to guarantee that the race will be run. There is also the added attraction that there will be very good representation from ALL classes of multihulls with some of the best sailors in Australia regularly attending, a good place to fly the flag for the F16 over here?

I think that’s right STEWART, but you have to start somewhere, and when you remember that the whole concept of the Formula 14 has only been actually "formalised" for a little over 6 months it's not a bad effort to have even one "commercially" manufactured cat available to the general public? And with the basic box rule, it is now possible for anyone, home builder or manufacturer, to "get their own boat out on the water" (Sounds a lot like the early beginnings of the F16 doesn't it?)

Hi Stewart and Darryl,

I lived in Perth for 3 1/2 years, just happened to be when K.I. crossing was on, actualy flew to Vic. and then drove over as I was sponsored by and selling boards for a Vic. company in Perth. I was managing a shop at Cottesloe in Perth, at the time I had nothing to do with S.A. shops, although I did wholesale to them later on but thats another story.

Regards Gary.

In the late 60's I was diving professionally for abalone in "backstairs passage" between the mainland and Kangaroo Island and I have to say that looking up from the bottom at a surfer or wind surfer is like looking at a very easy "free meal" from a sharks point of view AND believe me when I say that there are many VERY big bighties that regularly pass through that stretch of water. I would comfortably dive with them UNDER water but I wouldn’t swim, surf, or windsurf, on the suface there EVER, even sailing a cat there is not without its concerns to me.

Hi all,

I know this is a late post and may not get looked at, but.

One thing to take into consideration when looking at these types of results is:
The f18's may have been sailing tactically amongst themselves not worrying about the position of a smaller or different class boat in the same race.
Having said that I think that the f14 is a very quick boat and would definately be a boat to keep an eye on in a mixed fleet regatta.

Regards
Chris Dean