http://www.kiwispy.com/PhotoGallery/LAC1996/

Title says it all..

Thanks for the link

I was wondering if any of you guys who are well versed in fixed sails could explain why they haven't caught on in Little America's Cup events. Are they too limited as far as the range in wind strengths they can be tuned to? I wouldn't think that money would be an issue for these events.

I dont think I understand your question properly?

The Little Americas Cup (originally called ICCT) was and is sailed with C-class cats and rigid wings up til present.

The organizers of the ICCT wanted to change the format of the event from C-class cats (due to lack of competitors) to F-18HT cats. I dont know if the F-18HT class rules permit rigid sails, but I suspect they dont.

The C-class does it's own thing these days, but I dont think any of the events use the name "Little Americas Cup" officially anymore?

Does anyone know what type of speed these cats with the rigid wings are capable of? How do they compare to something like a tornado?

I dont _know_, but they should be faster than a T in the conditions they are set up for. They are always refered to as the fastest things around (of similar size of course), so I would be very surprised if the T could keep the pace!

The T is set up for windward/leeward racing, while these boats compete on their own special course set up to test them on all points of sail.

In higher winds, I guess the crew would be so busy depowering these beast, and avoiding breakage, that a conventional cat could have a chance. But they would probably not come out to play in such conditions.

Comparing the efficency of regular rigs to wing sails, I think the soft sail rig rates 1.3 to the 2.5 of wings (not sure about those numbers). If so, they should leave the T gasping for air on the starting line

I saw a photo of a Square 18 with a wing here some time ago. It was unbeatable for a long time, but was beaten in the end by a soft-sail rig. Would be nice to hear why/how..

Back in the late 1960's when the Tornado came on the scene as a candidate to become an Olympic class, the boat was tested with both soft sails and wingsails. The wingsails were faster, but very impractical. And that seems to be true of all boats right up to now.

As written in the Tornado annals. The wingsail T was fastest in the selection process, but 'everybody' was glad the wingsail broke at the end of the trials so they could select the softsail rig. Would have been very difficult for club sailors to keep a wing-sailed T..

But they are cool rigs, and fast

the one thing i can see in those pictures is that the rudders have changed dramatically . when they where building the current aussie boat at my yacht club they had tiny thin daggerboard rudders that had about half the length in the water as the ones in those pictures. must come down to a better balanced boat/rig. I imagine they would be generating sufficient apparent wind downwind that they wouldnt need to square the foil off very much.

so if they are making the LAC a softsailed beachcat event why the decision to go with the F18 and not the T? With the current globe-hopping aspect and a little better promotion it could work really well. I think if you could get it televised as well as the 18ft skiffs were downunder, with regular races it could work really well. and the raw speed of the boats would make it interesting to watch for the non-yachting general public.

I believe they approached the ITA, but was turned down. There was a bit of controversy around this, and the ITA's mission is the keep the Tornado in the Olympics.

It's nut run on F-18's, but F-18HT's, a different class.

A tour for C-cats would probably be more interesting with the amount of 'crash and burn' that class is known for than a tour with T's. But the teams would need to be more equal than at the last C-class outing. Cogito is still the one to beat. The australians and the brits could not compete performance wise. Came down to wing-design..

Many probably disagree, but I think sailing can be splendid TV entertainment if they put some effort into the production. Laylines, shifts and relative positions need to be put on top of the TV images to make it attractive to non sailors. I hope the chineese get it to work as well as the last AC production. If not, the brits at least should know what to do in 2012.

Rolf,

I was racing a Category II 18 Square in Traverse City when Jon Lindahl on LCD (stands for Lindahl Catamaran Development) defeated Craig Riley on Wild Turkey. The conditions were light that year and Jon beat Craig by forcing Craig to tack often, if I remember correctly. The rigid wing forced Craig to go behind the sailplan on tacks and gybes and Jon was quicker going under his boomless rig. This allowed Jon to keep putting LCD's bad air onto Wild Turkey, forcing Craig to tack. Tactically, Jon raced like it was a match race with Wild Turkey, and never let Riley get away. The regatta was close, but Jon Lindahl won the North Americans that year on LCD.

To be completely honest, Lindahl had been doing extensive development of his mast and sails with the ability to test against a fleet of at least six 18 Squares at every regatta, one of which was very close in speed to Jon on LCD. Jon must have gone through 3 or 4 masts and more mainsails in the two years leading up to the 1987 North Americans. Wild Turkey had been launched in 1981 and had been undefeated until that regatta in September 1987. I don't think Craig had done much to improve the boat, and in talking to him, there were not as many regattas for him, especially not the number of 18 Squares to test against.

The traveller on LCD had a center of radius behind the mast and the ends were higher than the center. This eliminated the need for a boom, allowed use of a decksweep mainsail (small notch in the trailing edge for the skipper to pass through on tacks and gybes) and resulted in Jon setting the mainsheet upwind and then just letting out the traveller to go off the wind or downwind. The design of the traveller track induced twist and inhaul in the mainsail. The thought at that time was that a decksweep mainsail would make the available sail area (18 Square Meters including spars) more efficient by not allowing the wind to go underneath the sail and creating an endplate effect. Jon designed LCD after competing in A Class for number of years, wishing to take advantage of the added sail area and unlimited width which the 18 Square Meter Class offers.

Thank you Les, good to know.

So Lindahl (must have some ancestors from Sweden) took him out by never letting the rigid rig stretch it's legs, and a large bit of dedication?

While Wild Turkey was active, was the rigid sail really as efficent as 1.3 to 2.5? And how did it work in the higher wind range? I guess Wild Turkey did not have the ability to twist it's wing?


I read trough some older issues of "Multihulls" last winter, and saw an for sale ad. for Wild Tyrkey in multiple magazines. Looked like a fun and fast ride, not to say spectacular for the monohullers

Rolf
The ICCT has been sailed on F18HT's for the last 3 years, this year in Italy, last year in New Orleans and 2 years ago in Newport RI. All 3 won by Lovell/Olgetree.

I asked Steve Clark the windspeed question this winter ("What windspeed can Cogito survive?) and he told me that they had her out in 22knots.

Rolf you are also correct the rigid wing mast generate more lift upwind, (I cant remember the numbers,) so upwind a T would get spanked. Downwind the T would stand a better chance with the spin, so it would be an interesting race. One of the top HT sailers thought he could be Cogito around the course.(never proven or contested)

When Seacliff went looking for a new class to support the ICCT, they wanted some "development", but they also wanted close racing, and they wanted to race every year.

With the C CLass they got lots of developement but the racing wasnt close. And the gaps between races were up to 7 years.

With the HT's they get little or no development and much closer racing and they have managed to hold a race 3 years in a row - and offered prize money and sponsorship. Aside from the Marstrom M18 that showed up in New Orleans, the ICCT has been sailed on Bimare Jav2 F18HT's, supplied by the factory. The only interesting development was the HT that was customized by Peter Johnstone, and even that boat was built using a Stock Bim, with off the shelf Marstrom parts and sailed by Hodges/Oliver in New Orleans. They were beaten by Lovell/Ogletree on a stock Bim. Which goes to show, its not the boat, its the sailor.

Seacliff is still using the Little America's Cup nickname in their press releases.

My personal opinion is that Seacliff needs to decide if it wants close match racing or a development contest. I dont see how you can have both, successfully over time.

Bill

Thanks for filling in Bill.

22 knots is about 11m/s I think, and thats more than I imagined the C cats could handle. But Cogito's wing are perhaps the most tuneable buildt so far?

I guess the HT sailor who tought he could beat Cogito around the course was thinking about windward/leeward racing, not the course the C-class uses. Personally, I think he would have been blown out of the water both windward/leeward and especially around the C-class course.

It's to bad the C-class lost momentum, I still think they was _the Little Americas Cup_.
Lots of action, speed and carnage, and some good matching before Cogito upped the game. Today the level is very high, out of scope for most amateurs I think. The brits struggled financially the last time, but had lots of engineering resources and still came up with a sub-standard wing..
I think the event lost several key aspects when they went dumped the C-class, altough I understand what they hope to achieve.

I think you will find the difference was more preperation and time on water. Cogito was built before 1996 and underwent one LAC campaign. The same boat was used so there was existing knowledge of getting the best out of her and futhermore leading up to the event Cogito was 2 boat tuning with the other US C. The Brits hit the event with a boat that had never seen water whilst the Skips had very limited time on water tuning against an old and not a very fast Tornado and reliability issues with a rig that was relativly un tested. The Brits boat does seem to be a bit out dated, but the Aussie boat should realy give Cogito a some headaches with more on water time.

Australian VYC Yardstick

A Class - 71
F-18 - 70
Classic Tornado - 69
18 foot Skiff - 68
Olympic Tornado - 65
C Class - 55

Rolf,

Lindahl was able to keep Wild Turkey behind through tactics. The wind was never strong enough to trapeze on these 12' wide boats (about 240 lbs., I think).

I only saw Wild Turkey at this one regatta, and I have no idea of the efficiency. I am pretty sure Craig Riley DID have the ability to twist its' wing, but it was just 2 elements. I know that the Stars and Stripes 88 America's Cup Team spent some time with Wild Turkey before atarting to design and build their wing.

Wild Turkey was beautiful the last time I saw it, always transported and stored in a fully enclosed trailer. I helped put that wing inside that trailer every night of the North Americans, and that made me see that the wing is interesting but that the soft rig is the only way to go for amatuer sailors.