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Agent Orange #53798
07/23/05 08:55 AM
07/23/05 08:55 AM
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phill Offline OP

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Folks,
A couple of days back I rxd this in my inbox.
An F16 built in Malaysia.

[img]http://www.catsailor.com/forums/download.php?Number=54171[/img]

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I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

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Re: Agent Orange [Re: phill] #53799
07/23/05 11:02 AM
07/23/05 11:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Interesting.....

Is it a Blade?

I like the look of the main - quite an extreme squaretop. I wonder why the No4 batten pocket is so different to the others?

What do you know about its' history phil?


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Agent Orange [Re: Jalani] #53800
07/23/05 11:45 AM
07/23/05 11:45 AM
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phill Offline OP

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John,
It is a Blade.
I posted it because I like the look of the square top.
It is along the lines of what they are using on the F18s
and the later A class sails.
In my opinion the larger square top makes for quite a good looking sail plan.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Agent Orange [Re: phill] #53801
07/23/05 12:47 PM
07/23/05 12:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Quote
I wonder why the No4 batten pocket is so different to the others?


Looking at the sail and the panels, I would guess that the 4th Batten pocked is also a horizontal seam; If you look from the bottom panels up, you can see the seams moving up and forward from the clew, ditto if you look down from the head of the sail; they all appear to meet at the 4th Batten pocket.


PS John, the ECPR was 'interesting'


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Agent Orange [Re: scooby_simon] #53802
07/23/05 02:50 PM
07/23/05 02:50 PM
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Is Malaysia a low-wind location ?

I wonder if the extra roach require extra mainsheet tension to stop it from twisting off, and some careful selection of battens?

It's fun to watch those Blades pop up all over! Is the extra roach within class rules?

Re: Agent Orange [Re: scooby_simon] #53803
07/23/05 03:33 PM
07/23/05 03:33 PM
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Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Simon, so you reckon it's an optical illusion caused by a coincident seam? Yeah could be. Shame though 'cos it sort of spoils the look of the sail....

What do you mean by the ECPR being interesting?

The Nore Race was poor race for us from my point of view. We got a 6th but the two Spitfires and two Hurricane SX's that finished ahead of us (a Shadow beat us on h'cap) just simply ran away upwind in the Thames chop. We just couldn't seem to get the Stealth going. Although we gained on them for the return downwind it wasn't enough

ECPR next year


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Agent Orange [Re: Jalani] #53804
07/23/05 04:16 PM
07/23/05 04:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
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Simon, so you reckon it's an optical illusion caused by a coincident seam? Yeah could be. Shame though 'cos it sort of spoils the look of the sail....


Not an optical illusion, I just think the cloth is double thickness there as there is a join I think

Quote
What do you mean by the ECPR being interesting?




Well,

First couple of hours were VERY light and I was actually going quite well, I was in with the Tornado's and was quite happy that most of the rest of the fleet was behind me (I was the slowest boat in the Full ECPR fleet) all the way to the Bradwell gate. Just before I got there the leading 6 or 7 Tornado's got a puff of wind from somewhere and off they went single trapping; I sat there for another 30 minutes... Grrrr.....

Picked up the wind and then sailed the next 6 miles to Colne with the hull just in the air with me sitting by the mast, the rest of the fleet were slowly passing me (T's Spitfires F18 Hurricane etc). This is not the fastest conditions for the 17 !


Just past the Colne the wind shifted more south and up went the kite, out on the wire and then played "not enough hands" trying to play the kite, traveller (only about 100 yds room before the beach so needed to keep high as poss) and steer. Going nicely now but can see the Tornado's also pop their kites and romp away. Sail like this allthe way to Walton (12 miles).


Now, as I turn back from Walton the wind starts to build so I now cannot fly the kite on the way back (wind is now shifting back east slowly) but cannot trap either so I end up sailing back from Walton to Colne (via Clacton) without the kite up, but without enough wind to trap - again not optimum....I know I am loosing loads of time on this leg as I spotted the lead Tornado's romping back - estimate I am about 15 minutes behind when I leave Walton after approx 4 hrs sailing.

Once I get back to the Colne the wind is now building nicely and I set course for Bradwell, out on the wire and starting to move a bit now, Time has turned and the water in now shooting back into the Brightlingsea rinve and it's getting lumpy, 1/2 way across I put the kite back up (at last) and start to really motor out on the wire; Fairly big and confused waves make it excxiting and start to feel a touch vunerable out there on my own.

Wind starts to more more east and build even more, becomes shifty and gusty for a while; one big gust was a good F6 (spray of the top of the waves) and became exciting trying to sheet the kite in, bear off and still maintain control (later told same gust nearly blew a couple of T's off the hard at Marconi). Find the Bradwell gate (another 6 miles) and then set course for home. Wind still building (but not as large as the gust mentioned) and now really shifting with the tide underneath me.

The river is busy and get caught in a port/stbd off the stone and have to do a quick kite drop to survive (sailing over my kite sheets so have to stop and sort this out)

Wind continues bo build to a nice F4-5 and have a great trip back.

Finished in an elapsed time of around 5 1/2 hrs and sailed approx 50 miles, GPS reported tyop speed of 19MPH and I felt like I had been run over by A truck next morning.

50 miles on your own is a long way; I loved it (first time I've done the full ECPR on my own) and learned a lot.

C U Next year !


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Post showing the pic [Re: phill] #53805
07/23/05 05:47 PM
07/23/05 05:47 PM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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[Linked Image]

Phill, you have pasted in the wrong link


Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Agent Orange [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #53806
07/23/05 05:56 PM
07/23/05 05:56 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

It's fun to watch those Blades pop up all over! Is the extra roach within class rules?



Rules only limit the actual area and the maximum luff length when under cunningham load. So yes, (any) roach is class legal.

Notice the black coloured beams ? Carbon ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Agent Orange [Re: Wouter] #53807
07/23/05 06:29 PM
07/23/05 06:29 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Yes, sail area is whats defined.
But as this is the first F-16 I have seen with such a roach, where did they remove cloth to compensate? Is the mast shorter or what??

It's an unusual look to it, I am so traditional I dont know if I like it yet.
Does anybody know what the idea behind the design is?

Re: Agent Orange [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #53808
07/23/05 06:54 PM
07/23/05 06:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
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Quote
Does anybody know what the idea behind the design is?


More sail area higher up to get the hull out in lighter winds. Hobie offer this type of sail on the Tiger for 2005.

Paul

Re: Agent Orange [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #53809
07/23/05 07:31 PM
07/23/05 07:31 PM
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phill Offline OP

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Rolf,
As pointed out Hobie put this type of design on their Tiger and I'm told it really works well for them. Most of the F18s are moving in this direction now.
It is F16 legal, the area for the larger head comes out of the leach producing a fairly straight leach on the sail. If you have a look at an F16 sail with a smaller head you will notice the leach has much more of a round. Make it straight and you have all this extra sail area that you can put in the head.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Agent Orange [Re: phill] #53810
07/24/05 04:09 AM
07/24/05 04:09 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Ok, thank you. Must be nice in low wind conditions, but I look forward to hearing how it behaves in stronger wind and how they handle it

If the area in the top comes from straigthening the leach curve, the foot must be shorter to compensate? This might be a good thing if you are looking for power, as the bottom of a sloop sail is quite flat to compensate for the jib's backwind. Hmm, I mostly sail in low wind conditions (class illegal for me, but anyway)..

Is the F-16's first to market on this, or was the F-18's there first?

Re: Agent Orange [Re: scooby_simon] #53811
07/24/05 04:39 AM
07/24/05 04:39 AM
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Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Quote
Not an optical illusion, I just think the cloth is double thickness there as there is a join I think


Sorry Simon, can't see that the sail would be double thickness there. Seams are typically only 1cm of overlapped cloth. That 4th batten area is clearly of the order of 5-6cm. The batten pocket would account for around 4cm. If there is a seam above or below the pocket that might explain the appearance (a coincident seam) but it is still a shame as it does spoil the look of the sail.

Surely those are just black painted or anodised beams Wouter? I can't see the justification for the cost of suitable carbon beams. It's not as if it hasn't already been demonstrated that an F16 can be built down to weight without compromising structure.


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Agent Orange [Re: Jalani] #53812
07/24/05 04:48 AM
07/24/05 04:48 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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It does indeed look like a batten pocket laid under a horizontal seam between panels.

The glue used for laminates today are often 25mm and upwards wide. Its strong enough to eliminate stitching in smaller sails, so it might be something like that we see..

Re: Agent Orange [Re: Jalani] #53813
07/24/05 06:21 AM
07/24/05 06:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Marcus F16 Offline
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South Australia
John,

Scooby is correct. If you dont have a full 50mm overlap in the cloth at the only horizontal seam the sail will not last long at all. Trust me I can tell you by experience.!!! Mylar sails can take some high loads depending on the fibre configuration, but stitching across the load of the panel will just pull through the fabric with out the assistance of some sail number ( or sticky back) to help hold the mylar together. If you look at some sail with a similar panel layout you will notice up to 5 runs of stitching just to keep the seam together.!!

While on this subject it will be interesting to see how many sailmakers will succeeed with the new contender "Maxx" fabric, as all seams will be cross cut & subject to high loads. Rolfe may be able to give all an idea on how he has approached this issue.??

A fellow had one made here ( a cross cut mylar sail with contender maxx febric)in Adelaide by a reputable sailmaker & against my advice he did not treat the cross seams with respect & the sail became flatter & flatter each time he sailed as the tapering in the seams were "straightening out" & the sail was a board & inverting in meduium to high winds. Needless to say the sail was only used 5 - 10 times & now useless.



Regards

Marcus


Marcus Towell

Formula Catamarans Aust Pty Ltd
Re: Agent Orange [Re: Marcus F16] #53814
07/24/05 07:08 AM
07/24/05 07:08 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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No experience with it yet. Hoisted our Maxx cloth sail first time on friday, but still have to install grommets for the battens, stretch and secure the bolt-rope and some other small stuff. If we can use it the coming week, I'll be pleased.
Marcus: I'll send you some photos once it's finished.


We used 25mm overlap between panels (cross cut layout), 25mm 3M special basting tape/glue for laminate construction and two rows of three stage zig-zag stitching. We also double folded all hems, and did some special reinforcing at the luff to take downhaul loads. Batten pockets are installed with 25mm glue and a single zig-zag seam over the panel seams (not optimum placement, but close enough for this try).
We hope this will be enough to hold the panels in position, but time will show.. I'll be sure to let you know if we have catastrophic results.


Macca have some practical experience with his Maxx sails now, so perhaps he could say something about it. Looking at the pictures he posted earlier in the 5.7 thread, it seems like they did a sandwich construction at panel seams integrating batten pockets, and further sandwiching at reinforcements etc. Interestingly enough, the reinforcement along the luff seem to be glued on..

Ref: http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/49474-DSCF0441x.JPG
Ref: 5.7 Thread


Re: Agent Orange [Re: Marcus F16] #53815
07/24/05 12:30 PM
07/24/05 12:30 PM
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Jalani Offline
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Okay Marcus, I see what you are getting at.
Doesn't overlapping the cloth to such an extent create an anomaly in the stretch and flex characteristics of the sail though? I know that there is a batten at this point. So does that mean that this batten would need to be slightly lighter than would normally be used?
After all, you have now got one point in the sail which has two layers of cloth glued and stitched together (possibly with some sort of film or re-inforcing) plus a 40mm wide batten pocket stitched top and bottom and a batten all at a single point on the sail. Is this not an excessively 'hard' spot in an otherwise (relatively) flexible sail?

(as if modern laminate sails can be described as flexible )

I understand the principle of modern sail design with current cloths and the use of load paths, but looking at this F16 sail that 4th batten area just looks sort of disjointed and uncomfortable. The seams above and below the batten don't even quite line up?


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Agent Orange [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #53816
07/24/05 05:46 PM
07/24/05 05:46 PM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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As far as I know both the A-cat class and the F18's went down this road before us. That and more more experimental boats/classes. Maybe the new Tornado also.

It seems to be the latest trend. I personally like the looks of a straighter leech over my own curved one but Agent orange is pushing it.

But indeed, the large heads seem to be very competitive in teh F18 class. Powers them up in the light stuff and flicks off in the rought stuff.

However, you'll need to do alot of fine-tuning while sailing. I have the second generation mainsail. Meaning entlarge squaretop with respect to the standard Taipan and I notice that in changing winds I must trim, with the mainsheet continiously. It works very well but you have to do it otherwise you're either hooking or throwing away power.

Mind you I'm really beginning to get addited to this lively feel. I wrote I wrote this down a couple of times before. When I switch boats I always have to remind myself to not get frustrated when this other boat doesn't react as my own one.

We'll just have to see where this all ends up. For now there is alot of activity behind the scene with several homebuilders who by definition try out (new) stuff


Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Asian boat has a twin several 1000's miles away [Re: Wouter] #53817
07/24/05 06:35 PM
07/24/05 06:35 PM
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Posts: 9,582
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Wouter Offline
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Asian boat has a twin several 1000's miles away

Because here in sunny Netherlands

[Linked Image]


Wouter

Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 07/24/05 06:36 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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