A friend and I are having a debate, which may be helped by your practical experiences. He has a Nacra F18, which he capsized last week. He and crew had trouble righting it, we think due to a) some water in the mast and b) more sail area being in the water (new square-top plus the effect of water in the mast pushing more of it under..). He's well built at 210 lbs, so we were debating whether he should stand right at the end of the extended dagger board, in order to get maximum leverage. And furthermore, whether his crew should join him out there (guess at 140lbs). His concern is that the Nacra F18 dagger are long and narrow and don't look quite strong enough for a 210lb gorrilla to bounce at one end.

What do you big guys do if your mast refuses to come up after a dip? Would you stand at the end of the dagger board?

Cheers
Simon

I also have a Nacra F18 and posed this question to Bob at the Performance Catamarans factory on a tour I took there a few months ago. He said that is ok to stand on the daggerboards when righting the boat. I believe he advised against any kind of bouncing.

I was asking the question from the perspective of a solo sailor since I often solo the boat. I did not ask him if 2 people could safely stand on the daggerboards when righting.

I am an even bigger gorilla than your friend. I weigh about 230 pounds, plus the weight of my wetsuit, harness, lifejacket, waterproof Ipod, and VHF radio, gets me up to about 240. I find that I am able to right the boat by myself when its on its side, but it is critical to have the mast pointing upwind, but slightly rotated from straight upwind so that the wind can come under the leading edge of the sail and help to lift the sail out of the water. The less wind, the less help you get. The technique if very similar to waterstarting when windsurfing: you use the wind to help lift you up through proper positioning. If I dont do this, and choose to ignore the angle of the mast & sail to the wind, the leverage of the weight of the water on top of the sail at the end of the mast is tough to overcome. Your friend may not have water in his mast. It might just be poor positioning. I do not normally stand on the daggerboards. Despite Bob's reassurances, I am uncomfortable with the concept and have found it is unnecessary for me and my mass. I have not tried to get right my boat from a turtled position.

As a backup, I do always carry a waterbag with a block and tackle. I did buy and install a Power Pole righting system and was less than excited about it. When it was not being used, it formed a lump in the center of my trampoline I could feel when tacking. The first time I tried to use it, the sheet metal screws used to secure it at its base came out. It is not longer on my boat.

Thanks for the reply - I'll pass your comments on. I was in the the USA a few weeks back and coincidentally needed a new bridle assembly for my Narca 6.0. I guess it would be the same Bob at Performance Cats who helped me out - excellent service: a new assembly was delivered to me within 3 days and that included getting some parts bought in. I hadn't thought of calling him - I think I'll pass on Bob's details as he was very helpful in the past.
Simon.

I think you would do better by fully releasing the downhaul and also (if you didn't do that) completely run out the main traveller even if that means that you have to pull the mainsheet in some. But releasing the downhaul can make a big effect.

Next step would be the power righting methode. In principle you should have to stand on the daggerboard at all with those weights. But the daggerbaord can take pretty big loads, during normal sailing both the daggerboards and wells are subject to about 150 kg sideways loading. They should be able to carry a single person, but I'm still heasitant to stand on them because if you fall of them you can hurt yourself badly.

On monohulls you always stand on the daggerboards when rigthing and although they flex they do take the load.

Wouter

Thanks Wouter - releasing the downhaul will be added to my list of tasks when righting, as well as by F18 sailing friend's.

I didn't understand what you meant by the power righting method.

That got me thinking that I have seen power boats right cats by pulling on the righting line and motoring away (same positioning as above) - especially for cats that are turtled. Something makes me uncomfortable with that, other than in an emergency. I'd expect the sails to be damaged. Would you 'allow' a RIB to roll you back upright before you'd exhausted yourself?
Simon

Many years ago I had my 16ft Condor totally destroyed (broken mast, boom, torn sails, broken battens, holed hull) by an inexperienced RIB driver who tried the method described BUT didn't shut the power off as the boat came up. So instead he accelerated away (the RIB had at least 55Hp on the back) and proceeded to flip the boat back over, fully turtled in shallow water at what seemed like zillions of knots.

Needless to say, nowadays I will only VERY GRUDGINGLY accept help from a rescue boat if it is a case of last resort....

The only problem is that if you release the downhaul completely, your mainsail can unhook at the top and come crashing down after righting. Hoisting and hooking the main back in can be a real pain when on the water. (I found out the hard way)

I use one of these to quickly disconnect the mainsheet from the sail/boom:

In that case run the downhaul out just shy of fully detensioned. I personally have never had the mainsail unhook on me.

But then again I pretension my downhaul system. Meaning that even when both cleats are completely released the travel length of the downhaul itself it limited to a state that still put some tension on the luff. This is handy on a spi boat. The pretension setting is just enough to get the wrinkles out when there when the mainsheet it only mildly tensioned (= downhill setting in light to medium winds)

Wouter

While I do not have personal experience with this method, I read in a catamaran book that the best way to use a power boat to right a turtled beach cat was to tie the rope to the base of the mast, bring that rope directly aft over the trampoline (the rope goes on same side of the tramp you are now standing on). Then standing at the stern of the boat to help submerge it, the power boat pulls the cat so that the sterns goes down and the bows pull up and over. This method avoids having the tow rope touch your fragile hulls. It made a lot of sense to me.

spfechner:

Seems as though that method would not be very kind the the delicate instruments in the back of the boat, the rudders, castings, gudeons and transoms. I imagine that it would be akin to being swept backwards by a wave. I have seen alot of pieces in the back breaking from that event.

Later,
Dan

I think you raise a good point. The rudders and associated hardware are not designed for going backwards. Maybe if the rudders are largely out of the water and pointing straight up at the start, and one is able to get the back of the tramp to plow down into the water, the stresses would be short lived.

I guess the real question is what is the best way to right a boat with a power boat? Which system puts the least stress or risk of damage on your boat? I know you can damage your hulls if the rope comes across the side and you incorrectly pull with a power boat.

I really don't know...(but am unafraid to speculate).

Steve

As others have said, not a good plan. Will destroy your rudders and if the boat does not come up instantly then the mainsail will start to "fill" underwater and put a massive strain on the mast etc.

I've been involved in righting a Tornado in Southampton water when it was starting to get dark (I was standing off in another Cat.

Boat had gone turtle and even with 4 people on board we could not right it (non sealed mast); luckly the UK tordado Chairman was around and had a RIB.

1, Take tow rope from RIB to the Boat, over the top hull and loop around (twice in this case I think)the mast and then back over the hull to one person who then holds it (so that it can be released if the need arises). Also ensure there are two people on the RIB; one driving and one with the other end of the rope (again around a few turns so the rope can be dumped from either end)



2, Move all the weight back onto the leaward hull (as per notmal "right from turtle procedures") and use the RIB to assis [color:"red"]VERY SLOWLY [/color]. With time the boat with the extra pull (GENTLE) will right to capsized. The crew then may be able to right it them selves, in our case this was not so as the mast was full of H2O.

3, Now the RIB will need to be moving a little faster as the boat is on it's side will be much easier to pull (You MUST ensure that the dagger/centre boards are [color:"red"] UP [/color] as when the boat does right it's self it will have some sideways motion.

At this point the Rope man on the RIB and on the boat are critical as as soon as the boat is starting to come up towards upright you must stop the RIB and/or dump the tow as the boat needs to slow the sideways movement (this will actually assist it righting it as well) before it is upright (hence raiding the plates so that if the boat does not trip (sideways) on the pleates and right too quickly.

I've been fortunate enough to never completely turtle my cat, but like anyone I have thought about the "what if" scenarios.
Would it be possible to hoist/lower a PFD with the Spi halyard so that it acts like a Bob pushing the mast up?

no no no...the original post is correct. To right a turtled catamaran with power assistance (or 40' trimaran for that matter) is to tow it backwards in the water while inverted. This allows the boat to come up like a porpoise. If you try to tow it with the tow boat pulling the boat forward (from the bows) as the boat tries to right, the sails will spread catching water and resisting righting with MUCH force. If you tow the boat backwards (with the tow line coming from the mast post over the trampoline and past the sterns), the sails will only momentarily fill just before the boat begins to rotate upwards. Then they will fall inline allowing the boat to roll upwards. If it works for 40' trimarans it should work well for cats. I've seen a righting attempt on a Supercat 20 towing from the bows that resulted in much damage.

Whose Super20???
Allan Bruce would hate this comment, Jake.
Back to the original backwars tow from Turtle, it works gerat as jake said, I've had it used on my Nacra 5.5 and my Tiger, both came up quickly with NO problems.
CARY

I found the passage in the book I mentioned. Its actually in the book "Catamaran Racing For The 90's", by this bulletin board's very own Rick White (and Mary Wells). I found the book to be very informative and would recommend it...even if we are now in the 00's.

Hi Jake, Wouter, etal,

I've been following this conversation so that in the event my F17 ever goes turtle on me, I'll be some what prepared. Couple things still aren't clear. The scenario is the boat is completely upside down. Probably some pretty good waves are sloshing over the tramp. The following is the sequential process I think your suggesting, but I want to be sure. 1.) You say to tie the righting line onto the mast. Doesn't that mean that the righting line from the rescue boat has to be tied onto the mast post (the rod that holds the mast ball)? And that puppy is now under water, right? 2.) To do this, I've got to hold my breath, dive under the tramp, tie on the righting line to the mast post, and then loosen both downhaul lines, swim aft and uncleat both the traveler and the main sheet. I hope the water isn't forty degrees. 3.) Then I take the submerged, secured line, and throw it forward, up and over the dolphin striker and let it flop onto the bottom of the tramp (now facing upwards). 4.) Then I swim around to the stern, grab the line, pulling it tight and position it, midway bewteen the two hulls with their upward pointing dagger boards and rudders. 5.) Then I clamber up out of the water and stand on the end most part of one of the hulls to assist the rear of the boat to sink as much as possible (which on my boat will be a zero response). 6.) I suppose to help keep my balance I can steady myself with the righting line, by then held taut by the rescue vessel, while the boat very slowly applies power. Is this is all correct so far?

Question: Assuming my spinnaker is snuffed when the boat turtles and the only sail up is the main, then for the life of me I can't see why my main sail would ever have any stress on it at all, nor ever "catch water" because the leading edge moving through the water will be the mast itself with the luff firmly locked in the sail track, and the leach flowing straight out behind. The sail will not only never fill, it should slice through the water like a knife--right? And the dagger boards and rudders pose no problem as to preventing the cat from slipping sideways in the water if it needs too, because as the boat begins to raise its' mast it must at some point stop moving forward and begin to pivot on the stern of one of the hulls; at that point the mast will begin to lay over onto its' side more and more as it continues to rise to the surface causing the boat also to begin to tip over on its' side--which is where we want it. Does that all square with what your telling us? A problem comes to mind at this point. It occurs to me that the rescue boat, must as it pulls, keep the righting line absolutely centered between both hulls or the line will move to one side and the cat may start to skid across the water, instead of comming up on its' side. What do you guys think?

Wouter, I can't figure out any advantage to releasing the downhaul, because it seems to me all this will do is allow the sail to "bag" and in so doing create more drag moving through the water than a "flat"sail would, and thereby resist our effort at righting. We would just be creating another problem, and for what purpose? Additionally if the downhaul is even partially released, the sail with all its' weight hanging straight down only has to slide down the sail track one and a half inches and the ring holding the sail head on the mast hook will be released. Boy I don't want to have to get up on my boat, finally righted after a lot of hard grunt work, only to discover now I've got to pull a heavy, wet sail back up onto the hook, all the while bouncing around in heavy water. Plus I hate the thought of swimming around under water with my spinnaker lines, downhaul lines, and mast rotator lines hanging all over the place waiting to get tangled up in. Sounds like a bad dream to me.

Thinking this through, really for the first time, reminds me I don't ever want my boat to turtle. I'm very interested in everyone's thoughts regarding these questions and observations.

Thanks,
Daniel

If the boat is turtled, simply stand on the bottom of the trampoline, reach around the front beam (only your hands need go below the surface of the water) and tie the tow line to the mast post now on the bottom of the front beam. We usually leave our righting line always attached to the mast post anyway.




Actually, I would probably get the hell out of the way while the rescue boat tries to right the catamaran - either by getting ON the rescue boat or jumping into the water and getting at least a boat length away along side. You do NOT need to submerge the sterns. The sails, now underwater, will provide plenty of resistance and cause the boat to pivot upwards. Be sure the rescue boat goes very slowly - it will not take much effort or speed to right the boat.



Actually, the sails will resist the motion provided by the resuce boat and will probalby be out to the side as the boat tries to pull the catamaran backwards through the water. The sails provide the initial resistance through the water until they are free from the water. Then the sterns will submerge enough to provide the resistance to pull the boat the rest of the way upright.



This is a distinct possibility. The rescue boat will need to maneuver slowly and reactively to keep the line centered in the hulls. They will also need to pay attention to the direction of the wind so that there are no surprises once the catamaran is righted.

Really though, all this is a mute point for an I17. As long as your mast is sealed, there is no reason you would need outside assistance to right the turtled boat. If it's turtled, get your righting line and sit on and lean out on the most downwind corner of the hull (whether it is bow or stern). After a few seconds the air in the mast combined with your offset weight will make it want to rise and the boat will, slowly at first, popup to a position on it's side. Then you just right it as normal.

Hey Jake,

Thanks for your thoughts. It amazes me how dumb I can be without applying much effort. It never occured to me that I could stand on the tramp bottom. And they said sailing would make me mentally sharper

Also, I was wondering what you think about loosening the down haul as Wouter suggested? I guess I'm a little skeptical about having an F17 readily pop up over on its' side, from a turtle position, unless you know somebody who's already done it. I weigh 165 dripping wet and don't have enough weight to bring it back up when its' only on its' side. I always uncleat the traveler and main sheet before I even get up on the hull. A number of guys (heavier than me) have also tried and they can't right it either.

The reason I was so interested in this thread to begin with, is because of my inability to get the boat up once it's gone over. It really adversely affects my ability to sail hard because I know if I go over, I'm stuck until someone on the lake comes to my rescue. Especially when I'm downwind I hold the boat back, specifically so I won't pitch pole. Guess I'll have to get my butt in gear and make a water bag. So far I haven't wanted to pay eighty bucks for a couple dollars of materials.

Thanks,
Daniel

Daniel,

No problem! I only know these things because I've put myself into these situations!

While it doesn't hurt to have a backup righting device, I weigh 170lbs and have successfully righted my 399lb F18 (with aluminum mast) by myself on three occasions using only a righting line. I have never failed to solo right my F18 with again, only the righting line. I just get the boat to spin with the wind blowing into the sails and on the top of the trampoline (about 45 degree angle to the bows is the best I can do) then with a small loop tied in the righting line, quickly hook my trapeze harness in so I lie flat (I leave the loop in it) while standing on the tip of the daggerboard. The boat righted quickly all three times. The I17 should be considerably easier with a carbon mast and less boat weight. Seriously, tip it with some people around that can help if needed and get some practice so you will feel more confident that you can right the boat.