Jake,

I know I've got a glich somewhere, cause a couple other guys told me they pop there 18s up by themselves also. I agree with you about boat weight. I'd think a 17 with a carbon mast would be lighter than an 18. But the factory won't say exactly how much their F17s weigh. Others claim the boat is 300 lbs. and then some.

I have done as you suggest and tipped the boat over a hundred feet from shore where I could still wade. Couldn't get it up to save my life. Neither could some of the other guys, who are heavier. I'm thinking the wind was maybe 5 mph or less and possibly to soft to assist. So maybe that's why we couldn't do it during our practice And it's pretty unlikely I'd go over in wind under, maybe 10 mph or so. I've only been over on the 17 twice, both during gybes in high wind and 2 foot waves. I couldn't change the direction of the boat relative to the wind, either by positioning my weight on the end of a hull or by trying to swim the mast tip . The mast was headed dead into the wind and I just wasn't strong enough to fight the wind on either occassion. Like I said it makes me hold back when the wind starts going much past 10, because it's such a hassle waiting for a good hearted boater to come to the rescue. It screws up my learning curve, that's for sure.

Eighteeners are able to push it as hard as they want because they always have enough crew weight to get back up, if their judgement is faulty. That's how I want to sail. But I'm in Minnesota and we don't have much of a racing community here, at least by solo sailers, so there is a dearth of uni experience here. I'm going sailing this afternoon and it's supposed to be blowing pretty steady at 7 to 10 mph. I'll dump it out in the middle of the lake and we'll see what happens.

Adios,
Daniel

Hah ! They wish !

Texel handicap system measured the boat (R version with carbon mast but WITHOUT the spinnaker package) at 151 kg = 333 lbs

And it is the lightest I-17 version of the 4 different version ever measured by the Texel officials.
Follow the link and see for yourself.

Source : http://www.watersportverbond.nl/data/numdet1_23-07-05.pdf

During the racing last sunday (championship between us and 2 neighbouring cat clubs) I talked to an I-17 sailor while we both waited for the last boat to come in and restart. He told me that at 75 kg he couldn't right the boat without a righting aid. He said he carried a water bag and a pully system to increase leverage and right the boat. But despite that he felt that he was holding back in the stronger winds because even with the aids it was a hell of a job.

Naturally I mentioned that I use only a righting line and my body weight of 82 kg to right my F16 even when fully rigged for double handed sailing (Spi gear, jib and mainsail). No extra aids. Feels like even less weight will do the job as well.

Point of the story is that you either must get yourself some righting aids (waterbags, shroud extenders, righting pole or garys righting system) or get a boat that is better suited to singlehanded sailing and rigthing (for example an A-cat or a Formula 16).

One other trick is too make sure that your downhaul is fully detensioned before righting. A fully on downhaul makes righting noticeable more difficult. At least it does so on my Taipan F16. Also make sure that you fully run down the main traveller over running out the mainsheet itself.

You can try the power-righting technic where the wind blows on the trampoline from the mastside and thus helps to right the boat but this technic is not always applicable.

Pretty much, and forgive me for saying so, if you start out on a mediocre basis (heavy boat, heavy mast) then there is not that much you can do about it. But try the tricks to see if they work enough to get you back up. If not then trading in your boat for one that is more suited to singlehanding is a glaring preferred solution.

Wouter

Hi Wouter,

Like I said, I've tried to find out how much my boat weighs from Nacra, but they seem kind of evasive, to say the least. As you know the boat is set up for one crew, nonetheless I asked if only one guy could do everything that was necessary to sailing and caring for the boat. The answer was yes. Maybe the right answer is yes, if you weigh enough.

Also the dealer explained to me the chronology of the Inter 17 thru the Inter R17, to the F17 and unless I completely misunderstood, the Inter 17R and the F17 aren't the same boat. So it well may be that Texel did not weigh any F17s. Frankly, I didn't think any F17 had even made it to Europe yet.

Your last paragraph kinda tickled me. I'm new to this forum so I read a lot of it before I posted. I noticed you and some of the guys get into a bit of a tussle now and then. I think if you told some of the other guys they just blew almost fifteen grand on a mediocre boat, even if it does have a carbon mast and other goodies, they might not take it very well It's a little bit like buttering a guy up, and then when he's off guard, shoving a blade in his back. But Wouter really it gave me a good chuckle. I assume stuff gets lost in translation from one language to another. But anway, I'm not quite ready to trade in my boat just yet. It's a 2005 model and I can't afford a new boat every year.

You might be right that I need a water bag, because I'm like your friend. When it starts blowing I hold back, and it irritates me because I want to push it harder. But I've had the same experience as your friend, when I dump on a windy day I might be out of commission for an hour or more. If I could get up in a few minutes I wouldn't care how often I went over. It just wouldn't be a problem; and my rate of improvement would be a lot faster.

Hey before I forget, read what I asked Jake about loosening the downhaul. I'm interested in your thoughts about that. I'm don't get how that would help matters.

Daniel

i don't know if this message will get posted or not but it all depends on the velocity of the winnd and if you can extend tthe upper shroud and have a drag shoot on the nose to cause a weather vain and a 150 lb. man can easily self right the craft!

Howdy Stranger,

I've no idea what you're talking about. How the heck do you extend the upper shroud? What's a drag shoot on the nose?

The dealer told me to swim the front of the hulls into the wind. This will send wind under the sail. Weather vain stuff is great when it's not very windy. But when the wind is blowing the boat very shortly swings the mast directly into the wind. This positions the face of the tramp against the wind. Heck that's more surface area than a jib on a twenty foot boat. No way is a swimmer strong enough to swing a boat around with the "tramp sail" up and filled with wind.

I was pretty naive when I got into sailing, I actually thought the manufacturer would have thought out a whole series of solutions, tips, tuning guide, etc. Color me dumb

Daniel

Popeye,
The boat will drift very fast in strong wind.
The drag shoot acts like a sea anchor to hold the bow of the boat into the wind. You could make it from some spinnaker cloth.
Easing the downhaul allows the sail to drop its built in shape. Apart from helping shed the water a little bit easier, when the boat stands up it is much better behaved and less likely to try to sail off while you are trying to climb aboard.
The same applies sitting in strong wind waiting for a start when you ease the downhaul the boat will settle down and behave itself (stops the main flogging back and forth)while you wait.

Regards,
Phill

YOu will never get a 17 up in the light stuff without assistance / righting pole etc.

I work on the principal that if it's windy enough to capsize F5+ is when I tip it in now and then, it is windy enough to get the wind to help you to get the boat up.

Shroud extenders are available for most boats, although not class legal for racing on some. An extender is an extra loop of cable that attaches to the shroud adjuster and to the lower end of the shroud. If the boat capsizes, you can release the main shroud from the shroud adjuster, and the extender section takes over and you now have a longer shroud, which lets the mast lean over farther and makes the boat easier to right. After the boat is righted, you reattach the shroud itself to your shroud adjuster. (Apparently, there is some quick way of doing all this, and I don't know whether it involves a "fastpin" or what.)

I think all the Supercats come standard with shroud extenders. I have seen them used very effectively for righting a Hobie 17 (although I think not class legal for Hobies).

The reason I have heard for them not being class legal for some classes is the fear that the extra slack in the shroud might cause the mast to jump off its base during the righting process (although I have not personally heard of this happening).

Also, having a drag chute, or drogue, or sea anchor, or whatever you want to call it, that can be quickly deployed from the front of the boat to keep the bows turned into the wind is a great safety feature. Not only does it make it much easier to right the boat, it also slows the drift of the capsized boat if you are going toward rocks or have lost a crew member overboard.

A drogue (sea anchor) could also be used, of course, if you get caught out in an unexpected storm and have to drop your sails and ride it out. The sea anchor can be deployed off either the bow or the stern, depending on whether you want to go with the wind and waves (but slowly) or hold the bows facing into them.

Both of these options are things I would consider having on my boat if I were doing a lot of recreational sailing (or distance racing) where there are not a lot of other boats around to come to my aid.

Daniel,

I think I'll need to amid that I suffer from the condition called "Dutch bluntness". Often things people overhere say whats on their mind although it is never meant to be hurtful. Of course other cultures may and will value it differently.

Most important aspect is that I always hang together with the other sailors overhere, meaning the Inter-17 and FX-one guys and after racing we discuss the race and pat the best achiever on the back with a job well done. And from time to time we make fun of eachother in a cynical way. When I'm out of breath after walking my boat up the sandy incline they say :"I thought you had a ligtweight boat ?". Of course I have to even the score now and then. But all in good fun.

But the only thing I never found funny was the fact that some dealers will say anything to make a sale. In other cases will they NOT say certain things in order to make a sale.

Call me a die-hard sceptic but if 4 earlier versions weight in above 150 kg (330 lbs) then for some reason I have not much faith in the 5th version being miraculously lighter.

The reason that I started with the F16 class together with several other was for a large part because I didn't believe anymore that we solo sailors would get anything like we wanted (or needed) from the big boat builders. Better to get out and make yourself what you want.

I think it pains me to see some people buy a boat for a price that also could have gotten them a lot better alternative. And I really mean that. As a design that is.

But enough of that ! Lets get to the issue at hand because just as here on my home water I think we should help eachother get the most enjoyement out of cat sailing.

>>You might be right that I need a water bag, because I'm like your friend.


That is what he told me. Honestly I have not much experience with any righting aid.

Another option is to go sailing with a buddy (or some buddies) on another boat. I mean having two boats on the water. When bth your sailing skills are good enough than the other boat can sail up to you and have the crew jump ship and help right the boat. If the other crew is also singlehanding then he can sail up to the tip of your mast and lift it up from the water and give it a small push upwards. This allows nearly everybody to be righter (further) singlehandedly.

I've heard various reports on righting bars, little better reports on righting bags, but best reports seem to come from shroud extenders. The last bit allows the upper shroud to be extended allowing the platform to be righting a little before the mast is pulled from the water. In several cases this seems enough to have the boat solo righted. Downside is that the shrouds are really slack and thus won't hold the mast in place anymore. You'll need a captive mastfoot connection for this method to work and tensioning your rig back up after righting could be a handful. Personally I would opt for the righting bag.

There are also some other rigting aids around, like gary's righting system, but I don't know them at all. Ask others. I do understand however that these systems provide a bigger addition to your righting moment then the other aids and therefor may be very attractive to you. You should look into that.

My other comment about "when you start out on a mediocre basis" was also refering to the fact that really a design that can't be righted singlehandedly with just the righting line and good technic is relatively limited in the available solutions. There is simply not much you can do that is ALSO practical.

In emergencies you can opt to drop your mainsail (lowers about 8 kg of weight out of a total of about 30 kg for the whole rig = 25 % or more ) Now you should be able to right it and hopefully rehoist the mainsail and get on your way. But like I said ; this is only a viable option for emergencies not practical for day to day sailing.

The basis is that the design was never optimized in its weight distribution to be righted singlehandedly and THAT is a formidable (design) flaw. Please forgive me this statement. After all 10, kg body weight difference (22 lbs) on the righting line only makes about 1.1 kg (2 lbs) difference at the mast tip. Making the mast only 2.2 kg lighter (4 lbs) results in the same 1.1 kg tip weight difference. Making the hulls lighter is also achieving more than that at the mast tip weight. Meaning that even small improvements in the design can account for far more improvement in singlehanded righting then any after market righting aid can achieve. Point is that you should start with a basic design that comes relatively close to where you need it to be and then most righting aids are easily enough to tip the scales when needed. Some designs however are pretty far away from where they need to be in the first place and the scope of rigting aids is barely enough to bridge the gap. I'm afraid that there is no kind way of expressing this.

Of course non of this is helping you much. Let me see what else is available.

....

Only option left is to take somebody along and sail the boat as a doublehander. I'm sorry if this seems like a hurtful statement but I'm serious here.


>>>Hey before I forget, read what I asked Jake about loosening the downhaul. I'm interested in your thoughts about that. I'm don't get how that would help matters.


I can't much explain why it helps but only attest that it does help. To be honest I never looked at it in much detail. I tried it and it works so I do use this trick when needed (light winds and flat water). That is all I needed to know.


Good luck

Wouter

Hi Phill & Scooby,

Your right Phill, on a windy day the boat blows across the lake like I've got an outboard motor mounted on it with the throttle cranked open. DOWNHAUL....ok, now I see. Makes sense. I was out last Thursday and talked some kids out on jetskis into helping me out for a while. I put it over 8 or 9 times and on a couple of occassions the boat started up without my permission and I almost went over again before I got things back under control. The downhaul was pretty snug all day. So point well taken. Thanks

Scooby, I'm with you at least in theory, about going over in strong wind in that I ought to be able to harness it's lifting power under the sail. But I'm going to have to get a little clearer in my mind on Phill's drag shoot first. I just got exhausted trying to swim the mast around and finally had to have one of the kids help me onto the hull. I was really pooped out. Unless the front hulls are headed pretty well into the wind, the mast in most winds, will rapidly end up pointing dead upwind, and any sail showing above the water will be pressed down by that wind. Two things did work. If I'd tipped over where the waves weren't too bad, the jetski driver could fairly safely move to the mast tip and lift it up. As soon as he got it over his head, I could pop it up fast. Otherwise in bigger waves one of the kids would jump off and climb up on the hull and kind of sit in my lap. Then we'd have enough ballast to right it again.

As for getting it up by myself, I Just couldn't do it. But it got me to thinking, as I noticed how hard the wind was hitting the tramp, that there must be a lot more weight somewhere, as Wouter has suggested. I figured if I took the mast and sail and all the rigging off, and could somehow keep the boat up in the air on one hull, that the wind would have blow it back down easily. So there is a heck of a lot more weight hanging out there than I had really considered. Guys like Jake (he's about my weight) and others tell me they've gotten bigger boats back up all by themselves with only a righting line. And several guys sailing F17s on the Great Lakes also say they right their boats by themselves, though I not sure how much they weigh. So I gotta think that with loosening the down haul and maybe a waterbag and then getting out as far as I can on the dagger board, along with maybe a quick novena will pop me up. The dealer told me that the F17 has a long learning curve and it seems to me that the only way to speed that up is to be willing to continually go to the edge until I can anticipate pretty precisly where that point is. In the meantime I figure I'll do a lot of swimming.

As for a righting pole, I sailed an F17 with a carbon pole mounted under the tramp and yikes does that ever smart when you bang your knees on that darn thing when you cross over. And don't hit your ankles on it either. I thought it was about the most uncomfortable thing you could do to a tramp. It does get the boat up though. But it's a lot more, at least it was for me, screwing around and time consuming than I would have thought. I'm either going to have to pork-up, or use a righting bag and/or drag bag and loosen the downhaul, or some use of the other tips before I put one of those things on my boat.

Thanks guys,
Daniel

If you get yor body way forward and I mean up bu the bridals, the blat will drift nose to slowly, then you got to move back ad out PDQ; timing to get the waves to help is good too. DH off is a must as is a good righting line.

Could someone clarify this for me. I fli[p my Tiger (and everything else) all the time and never touch the downhaul. I also have mine pretensioned, but would still have some minor concern about the top getting unhooked if I release the DH Tension.
Why does it make a difference?
CARY

Hi Mary,

Thanks for the explanations--very helpful.

I want to make sure of we are both using the same nomenclature. I recently ordered Johnson "shroud adjusters" from Annapolis Performance Sailing. It sounds like these are similar to, but not the same as the "loops" you describe. I can't seem to locate any of these from the usual sailing retailers.

However, Mary you said: "The reason I have heard for them not being class legal for some classes is the fear that the extra slack in the shroud might cause the mast to jump off its base during the righting process (although I have not personally heard of this happening)."

In my mind I can envision the value of lossening the upper shroud to allow the boat to start the righting motion. I imagine it would have to be loosened quit a bit to make much difference. But your point about becoming de-masted scares the daylights out of me. As Scooby said, capsizing, at least for me if I'm not practicing a righting technique, usually occurs due to higher wind/wave conditions. It seems to me most sailors and I imagine yourself, right their boats with crew weight alone, using techniques like detensioning the downhaul and positioning the mast for lift, and may use a pole, water bag, or drag chute for assistance. I bet if all of us in this thread were sailing F17s together, and one of you guys dumped, I could see you getting back up faster or easier than me. So I gotta think my inexperience is a big part of the problem. I've tried so many things and I still can't do it. It's tough when I don't know, what I don't know. But I'm going to get it sorted out sooner or later, and someday I'll be able to say with certainty, an F17 can or cannot be righted with 165-170 lbs.

A little off your points, Scoobie mentioned getting out on the hulls near the bridle attacment and using a good righting line. I replaced my stock righting line with 24' of good line that's easy to hold onto and to tie loops in. I've used the line to litterally balance myself out on the the extreme hull tip and hike my weight out even farther. It has absolutely no effect on repositioning the boat. Nor does it make any difference if I do the same thing off the hull's tramsom, or any position in between.

Mary, is a drag chute basically the same shape and dimensions as a righting bag, such as the one on page 36, item #01-3282 in Murray's catalog? If it is, them maybe in more difficult circumstances it could do double duty, assuming I could get it off the end of the hull and hook it over my shoulder with it loaded with water. I do usually sail on a lakes by myself, so your advice to carry some emergency gear sounds prudent.

Thanks Mary,
Daniel

Hi Wouter,

Well it seems we're birds of a feather. I'm plagued with the same condition, only I inherited it from my Irish ancestors. I've been chewed out for lacking tactfulness more than once. I took no offense, in fact as I said it really cracked me up, precisely because I never thought you intended any meanspiritedness.

One of the things I've realized over time regarding talking online, is first, most of us abbreviate our thoughts so we don't have to type as much. And second without tonal inflection, facial expressions and physical gestures our words when printed on a monitor, stand stark. As such they're open to an individual's interpretation, without benefit of clues as to the meaning intended by the speaker. So it's no wonder guys flare up at one another; only to be told by the person they railed against that their interpretation was incorrect. I suppose sailors, as a group, are fairly competitive people, and it occurs to each of us that our view of the world is the correct one, in spite of the fact that no evidence may be available to support our opinions. Instead we proceed forward on our assumptios alone, without the immediate participation of the person we're reacting to. A recipe for disaster and an opportunity for openmindedness.

I figure you're a pretty passionate guy when it comes to sailing and reading your posts tells me you know a heck of a lot more than I do about sailing. So I'm open to what you have to say, however you say it.

Maybe I should have provided a little bio about myself when I signed up for this forum. I guess I was either lazy or figured nobody would give a rip. Here's the deal...couple things happened to me that got me into sailing. First I got older and second I busted up my body pretty badly a little while ago. Last winter I wasn't making any progress with my recovery program, was really depressed about being an old fart, and no longer possessed a body that had formerly allowed me to lead a very athletic life. This fall I'll be 64. I decided sailing wouldn't stress my joints or bones very much and the activity would get me out and moving again. So I read everything I could get my hands on, reached a decision and bought 2005 Nacra F17. I launched it June 4, of this year. That was the first time I'd ever been on a sailboat in my entire life. It was blowing about 12-15 and gusting harder when I pushed off. I was so stiff I could hardly move around on the tramp and really just hung on, scared shi_ _less! Boy, was that a ride. Yesterday I logged my 53 time out sailing my little boat. First book I read while waiting to pick up my new boat was "Catamaran Racing: for the 90s" by Rick and Mary. Half the time I didn't know what they were talking about, and would have to stop and look up a term. But it's clearly written and I really enjoyed it. I still go back over specific sections when I come in from sailing, all befuddled. I went from them onto Stuart Walker and then to Frank Bethwaite. I've never been very successful at anything until I knew it in my mind inside out. So this summer I've been sailing a lot and reading at night. As good as any author may be I still need to put a new lesson into my own words and juggle it around until the light goes on. Sailing by myself as I do, you guys offer a valuable resource for me, and I'm very grateful for your advice.

I love sailing and my body is slowly starting to recover. A friend suggested I better watch it or I'd turn into a beach bum. Pleeeeeze, lord let me be a beach bum.
I've got a few hours of light left and it's blowing ...I'm outta here. I'll get back to you Wouter.
Thanks Wouter

In order to undo the shackle / thread on the downhail; do you not need to pull the DH back thru the system to create enough slack to un-do it ? I do. herein the answer - you are only letting most of the tension off....

Okay, I understand how important it is to know how to right your boat if you capsize, but what I don't understand is why you guys capsize in the first place. It's really not necessary, you know.

If you don't swim now and then; you are not pushing hard enough !

That's a cliche that I don't accept.

Ok, I'll bite..

Capsizing is slow, so we try to not do that. However, sometimes you can't avoid it. Either becouse we react to slow or wrong, we run out of options or we have to gamble to stay competitive.

Last weekend we was racing around the buoyos on a windward/leeward course. The top mark had an offset mark, and it was blowing 10-12m/s (around 25knots) with stronger gusts. On the jib reach to the offset mark, we was two 90kg's guys at the rear of the boat holding on to the aft-crossbeam with wide-open eyes locked to the bows who was underwater for the whole reach. If hit by a gust then, we would surely have gone over. Main and jib was both travelled out and twisted off.

One thing is your own boathandling and sailing style, when you have other boats around you need to think three moves ahead to stay out of situations that can lead to capsize.

Then you have the 'it came out of nowhere' capsize, like when we pitchpoled for the first (and so far, only time). We was sailing along as usual, not pushing it at all, and suddenly leeward bow just dove under..

I don't check this forum that often - sorry I've been absent!

With regard to wind strength, it's very important that you have enough wind to right the boat. All the times that I single handedly righted my F18, it was blowing in excess of 15knots. My F18 weighs 399lbs.

Orientation to the wind is important and I usually drag myself in the water off the bow to rotate the boat. Then VERY quickly get back to the righting line and start to lean out hard. As the boat comes up, it will want to swing the mast and sails into proper orientation with the wind. I bet your problem is mostly the lack of wind when you've practiced righting.

with regard to downhaul, I've never touched it when righting. Take a look at the following picture (my old Nacra 6.0 on a VERY tiny and extremely puffy lake) - the sail has pretty good draft even with downhaul on.